Catholic Schools

[EasterJoy]

You’re right. We don’t know the whole story. Even based on what was told to me is one side. My concern is that this appears to be a trend now with Catholic Schools. Even in situations where I was intimately involved or had direct knowledge from both sides. I use to say, “I wish we can do more.” until one day I asked, “Why aren’t we doing more?”

Returning to the situation of this particular girl, however, it may very well be that “I wish we could do more” would leave her where she is, which is being exposed to a public situation of coping badly emotionally and learning nothing while her teachers and classmates have no choice but to impotently watch her suffer. It may easily be that the best thing the school could have done for this girl is to tell her family, “We have tried everything we can think of trying. She needs more than we can possibly offer. You need to find a better situation for her now.”

At any rate, as their friend it does not do much good to say, “Wow. The school administrators ought to be ashamed of themselves.” Even if it is true, it does not address the situation. If you want to do more and the family is willing to accept your help, then ask what you can do to proactively look for solutions. The whole family is overwhelmed with grief, so your ability to do research could be a big help.

The Portland area has a great resource that now has a national presence called The Dougy Center (The National Center for Grieving Children and Families. dougy.org/) You might want to tell your friend about this resource.

 

[KD8TZC]

Would Jesus turn away a crying little girl who just lost her mother?

Jesus would realize that the girl is not learning at all if she is crying all the time and try to get to the root of the problem first. Chances are, that solution will involve some medical intervention which a school (Catholic or Public) is not able to provide.

You’re right. We don’t know the whole story. Even based on what was told to me is one side. My concern is that this appears to be a trend now with Catholic Schools. Even in situations where I was intimately involved or had direct knowledge from both sides. I use to say, “I wish we can do more.” until one day I asked, “Why aren’t we doing more?”

So why don’t YOU do more for the family? You seem to know them, are interested in the situation, and it seems you care, so maybe the Holy Spirit is showing you a way to help them. Maybe the family doesn’t like to ask questions? If that is the case, having someone like yourself come along might just be the help they need.

I’ll pray for this family, but without knowing the whole story, it is hard to take sides.

• John

 

[Miserissima]

In Catholic school, back when dirt was clean, we didn’t have a school psychologist or speech therapist or any number of roles on staff (just a nurse, because that was mandated by the Board of Education).

There were students, however, who were bused to the local Girls’ and Boys’ Club or other schools once or twice a week for “special classes,” such as speech therapy or for other evaluations. Some of these special sessions were in group settings, others were individual.

The school board saved some money a few years later by not paying the bus company for transport and insurance, but by paying for travel and gas for the therapists to travel among the schools.

This did not drain funds from the school proper, and was a healthy collaboration between the local school board and the parochial school.

This isn’t a one-size-fits-all solution by any means, because different school systems governance boards have different relationships of authority with respect to private schools. But I’m sure something could have been worked out between the time the parent was notified how his child suffers and was disruptive to the class and being asked to leave.

 

[Xantippe]

I get what you are saying, but this only leads us to another issue. Catholic schools have long been considered a “better” means of adolescent education. However, if more and more Catholic schools are saying they don’t have the means to deal with special needs children (i.e. psychological, emotional, or developmental), then how can they preach to be better when public schools have these services? I get that public schools are subsidized by the county, and by extension the state, and Catholic Schools are privately funded, but it still doesn’t excuse not helping this child. From I’ve been told by the family, there wasn’t even any suggestions for getting specialized help. It was just, she can’t come here anymore.

It sounds like the child’s surviving parent is not taking appropriate measures to care for the child’s mental health.

At a minimum, regular counseling appointments are in order.

It’s possible that the school asked that that happen but the surviving parent refused and wanted to carry on as before.

 

[Xantippe]

I think maybe the school had good reasons (if she was crying all day, maybe they felt it was best for her to have some time off and them come back, or they just found it to be counterproductive to have her in school where no one was available to attend her needs)…

**That sounds very reasonable. Even adults often get work leave for bereavement. It’s not fair to expect a child to carry on as normal in the face of the loss of a parent. **

It may very well be that everything was done as it should have, and maybe it wasn’t explained correctly, or maybe it was just the way in which it was done that made the family upset. There is no way for us to know, and so putting down Catholic schools, or even just putting down this Catholic school, isn’t going to help.

Yep.

 

[Xantippe]

Now, my experience is the “from what I’ve been told by the family” is almost always hearsay. The family likely is giving only their side of the story, and then it is further whittled down by the next side. And who in the family? An aunt or uncle, or the father? If not the father, every step of the way, the story becomes more and more one-sided.

We should not assume the worse of the school or the pastor in question.

Exactly. Unless the source was the relative who was dealing with the school, it’s a game of telephone. We have no idea what was or what wasn’t said and what options were offered.

 

[Avocadomom]

Our Catholic school is not equipped to handle special needs or emotionally disturbed children. We simply don’t have the state funding that allows for those types of professionals to be employed at the school. Parents with kids who have moderate to severe special needs, or extraordinary emotional needs, are directed to the local public school, because they have so many more resources.

It could be that this child is not able to function in a classroom without disrupting the educational environment for everyone. They may have “given it a shot” for a while, and ultimately came to the conclusion that the child needs more help than the school can offer.

I doubt the school has cut off access to pastoral services and spiritual counseling for the family. They probably simply can’t have such a disruption for the other 29 students in the classroom. Kids at that age are very sensitive to crying, and often one kid who starts sets off four or five others. If it’s taking away educational time from the whole class to deal with this child’s (legitimate, for sure) emotional needs, then before long the school will have 29 families calling and emailing about how their child’s time is being wasted while the teacher focuses on just one student.

 

[EasterJoy]

It sounds like the child’s surviving parent is not taking appropriate measures to care for the child’s mental health.

At a minimum, regular counseling appointments are in order.

It’s possible that the school asked that that happen but the surviving parent refused and wanted to carry on as before.

I would really suggest looking for a Dougy Center program or one like it, with a group that is specifically experienced in helping children through bereavement. At the Dougy Center, for instance, there are support groups in which children have a chance to talk to other children who also have a parent who has died. Unlike friends at school, these peers are in a position to actually understand.

 

[gardenswithkids]

Many good comments here. I want to add: Don’t confuse a Catholic school, (even if it’s a parish school) with the Catholic Church.

 

[Avocadomom]

Ideally, we should try and do all we can to have ALL of our beautiful children attend our Catholic schools no matter what their circumstances, abilities or needs!

In a perfect world that would be the case, we don’t live in a perfect world though. However I still think that is what we should strive for. Catholic schools should strive to be a beacon of light to the community even though it is challenging to be sure. I personally know Catholic schools that have risen to the challenge and they have born fruit that has been amazing.

Perhaps this school really tried to help this poor child, we don’t know. However the discussion here dismissing the role of Catholic schools and putting our most vulnerable children in the public school system without a chance at a Catholic education is something that bothers me on a moral level. The way to truly measure a society is by the way it treats it’s most vulnerable. Just my two cents.

I don’t think anyone is throwing kids with special needs to the wolves; there is just a place where their needs can be met in a way that is financially feasible for most people. Our school welcomes kids with various levels of need, but the truth is that very few families can afford to pay full price for the extra professionals involved in those students’ educations. A one-on-one educational aide runs about $120 a day, here. That service is 100% subsidized in the public school system, so you can see what it is an obvious choices when kids need that type of intervention. That, and, to be honest - most parents who pay for private school do not want their child’s class full of kids with ADHD, emotional disturbances, traumatic home lives, behavioral problems, etc. etc.

 

[UbiCaritas]

So true! I don’t think so either actually, and I believe that Catholic educators are honorable people with huge hearts working on very tight budgets on that we would probably agree!

So when Catholic schools tell families of children with special needs that they just don’t have the resources to help them this is true, however in reality they will NEVER in a million years be able to help them because they are never planning to help them, ever and this is where I think we may be dropping the ball as a community that’s all. …

For me: I want my children to have a classmate with Cerebral Palsy, I want my children to have a classmate in a wheelchair, I want my children to have a classmate with emotional problems and ADHD, I want my children to have a classmate with Down syndrome because I want them to learn to know and love all in an environment that cannot be duplicated any other way. God bless and thank you for letting me share my thoughts.

firefoundation.org/

I quite agree with all of this. The problem is that the money just isn’t there.

At one point, we had orders of teaching nuns and brothers who taught very nearly for free–the orders were paid enough to keep a roof over their heads, provide for older or infirm members, and keep them in food and school supplies, and that was about it.

Now, however, every single (lay) staff member has to be paid a living wage, and rightly so! Defrauding a laborer of his wage is one of the sins that cry out for vengeance. Unfortunately, a lot of Catholic schools, therefore, have become the province of the well-off because they can afford to put their kids there. Locally, for example, the cheapest you’ll find for Catholic preK-8 tuition is about $4000 per year, and there isn’t much of a difference for subsequent siblings. For Catholic high school, the cheapest is about $10,000 per year.

Let’s say you have five school-aged kids, which is hardly abnormal for a Catholic family. Two in high school and three in the cheapest Catholic elementary school–for which, I might add, you have to factor in a 30-minute drive between for pickups and drop-offs–will run the parents $32,000 in tuition alone per year. That excludes all the fees and so forth that inevitably crop up, not to mention gas, wear and tear on the car and on Mom, who’s spending a good two hours in the car just for school runs on days when one kid isn’t staying late for soccer/football/rehearsal/whatever and needs another run to pick him up.

Most families cannot drop that kind of cash on their kids’ education. DH and I are fairly well-off, and we couldn’t–at least, not without saving anything for retirement, which is a pretty poor financial decision.

Special-needs kids are in the minority, and so from a strictly financial perspective, it isn’t cost-effective to provide special education in private schools like these. For one thing, there is such a wide range of what the kids will need–physical help? Emotional? Aids to assist them with overcoming learning disabilities? Socialization tools?–and with the shortage of special-ed teachers, one can expect to pay a SE teacher around $40,000 per year as a starting salary.

In a classroom of 25 kids paying $4,000 per year, slightly over half of their tuition alone is going to pay the teacher’s salary and associated benefits. This leaves about $48,000 of that money per classroom to pay for…

–non-teaching staff salaries (janitor, secretary, nurse, maintenance, principal, vice principal, the former three at about $25-30K/year, the last two at around $75K/year)

–Maintenance and upkeep on the physical building, climate control, utilities

–Maintenance on the grounds, school transportation, etc

–Financial aid for some kids

–Sports and associated costs

How, reasonably, can those SE teachers and one-on-one aides get paid? Because while we donate to our local Catholic schools in order to help kids in our area (though we’ll never be able to afford them–go figure!), and I know other people do, too, at some point something has to give, and the public schools have much more in the way of resources than a Catholic school can ever reasonably expect to have for special ed kids.

I also admit to being a bit resentful that those of us who either have tight finances or larger families are basically forced to homeschool, use the local public schools (an educational joke, and a very poor one), or forgo retirement in order to finance k-12 education, which isn’t going to happen…and yet can expect, like clockwork, a lecture from the pulpit every year on Catholic Schools Sunday about how we need to send our kids to Catholic schools. I digress, however…

The only way this can ever change is for a) the teaching orders to come back and b) for people who aren’t associated with the school in some way already to step up to the plate and help finance them. The diocese of KCSJ seems to have a good plan in place, and one that I wish would spread to other dioceses. As long as our priorities don’t reflect so much that Catholic children get a good Catholic education as that well-off children do, I don’t think that it will spread.

 

[Hockeygurl]

She could qualify under the special education label of “Emotionally Impaired:”…it covers a multitude of issues. Also, a regular public school has trained counselors on staff to work with students who don’t qualify for special ed.

Anyway, this is all pretty moot, as we are hearing only one side of the story. I’m not going to criticize the school or parish priest when we have no idea what their side of this story is.

1. I realize that I don’t know the whole story, but if I cannot comment on the information I WAS given then what is the point of this thread?
2. I am not sure I am making myself clear, let me define some terms… In my state Special Ed is as I explained above. These kids are not required to meet the state’s requirement for grades, credits or even classes required for graduation. However, Under title 504 children with “learning disabilities” or ADHD, or other MEDICAL issues are entitled to an IEP (Individual Education Plan) where they stay in mainstream classes but concessions are made for absences or other special needs of that student. This is true of the public schools, but not a difficult thing for a private school to accomplish with little to no use of extra funding. Also in my state if a person is considered “homebound” they are entitled to a private home teacher that travels to their house a few times per week (as I have seen done with pregnant teens until after delivery). Lots of options out there… they just need to get in touch with the correct people.
3. All three of my girls went to a Catholic school through grade 8…My middle one has ADHD and a math learning disability. They did a wonderful job with her.

 

[EasterJoy]

Ideally, we should try and do all we can to have ALL of our beautiful children attend our Catholic schools no matter what their circumstances, abilities or needs!

In a perfect world that would be the case, we don’t live in a perfect world though. However I still think that is what we should strive for. Catholic schools should strive to be a beacon of light to the community even though it is challenging to be sure. I personally know Catholic schools that have risen to the challenge and they have born fruit that has been amazing.

Perhaps this school really tried to help this poor child, we don’t know. However the discussion here dismissing the role of Catholic schools and putting our most vulnerable children in the public school system without a chance at a Catholic education is something that bothers me on a moral level. The way to truly measure a society is by the way it treats it’s most vulnerable. Just my two cents.

This is like saying that an assisted living facility is bad simply because it cannot accept or keep clients who actually need a skilled nursing facility.

I know a Catholic school that has “risen to the challenge” of having a special-needs child in their student body. It is because the public school system cooperated and helped provide the means to do it. As for the child in question, we do not know that the family was not in denial about her ability to cope with a traditional classroom setting ANYWHERE at this point in her life.

 

[cat3gs]

Please understand…I get what everyone is saying. In a perfect world, all Catholic Schools would have the funding and resources to help out any child with need. That goes for both those enrolled in their schools and just regular parishioners. I am not angry with the Catholic Schools, but rather disappointed that they were quick to say, “we can’t deal with this.” We are giving too many excuses for not helping. Perhaps I’m just too idealistic, but I view Catholic Schools as an extension of the parish, which in turn, is a part of the Holy Catholic Church whose mission is to spread the word for Christ.

Everyone so far assumed that what this child needed was special needs attention, but what if spiritual attention is what was needed? How many times have we seen circumstances of conventional medicine or treatment failing, only to be succeeded by successful spiritual healing.

I thank everyone for the insight and response. If you would be so kind as to include this child in your prayers, it would be greatly appreciated.

Ive worked in a Catholic school for 7 years and we have had to let about 4 students go since I began working. I know that there have also been multiple students who we were unable to accept. It ALL the cases of the students being let go it was because the child was far too disruptive, never put any effort into their studies(didnt want to be there) or had some form of learning disability. We havent had to deal with losses to that extreme. If the child was crying all the time then she probably wasnt even responding to the spiritual help given. You also have to take into consideration the affect it has on the other students. And if she was that upset it would be disruptive to the class. Most Catholic schools dont have the faculty to spend one on one time, all day long, every day on students with that much need. Im sure her own grades were falling. Our school doesnt even have counselors on staff. We have a retired couple (both counselors) that volunteer their time once or twice a week. All in all it was most probably best for the child. And Im sure they didnt tell her she could never come back. Sometimes all the kids need is a year or two away and they come back and are a much better fit. And also, the schools NEVER like to turn away kids ( ours anyway ). We always strive for what is best for the child and their family.

 

[Xantippe]

God bless you and thank you. Oh goodness I never said anyone was bad and I hope I didn’t give that impression.

EasterJoy do you know what really puzzles me? Every time I bring up this topic people seem to get somewhat defensive or agitated and I am honestly confused. In no way am I critical of our wonderful Catholic school teachers or administrators. I am just saying we can and probably should do more. Shouldn’t we?

I find it curious and extremely sad that the same arguments used to marginalize people and children with disabilities out of parish and Catholic school life are the same that are used to pressure a woman to abort a child with disabilities and I don’t say that lightly. People say it’s going to be too expensive, it’s not worth it, it will be a burden to the other people, it will use up too many resources that will go to better use elsewhere and it’s too much trouble to go to for one or two individuals. I guess my hope is that as a church I hope we can at least try and take a fresh look at this in many of our schools and accommodate and welcome more students than we currently are!

I have seen success stories from around the nation, this isn’t my idea, and it isn’t new, this is already being done. There ARE Catholic schools that are doing this beautifully, God is good. Yet there seem to be so many that are not and they need our prayers and support and encouragement to welcome children with special needs.

A few thoughts come to mind. (Apologies in advance for mentioning stuff that other people on the thread know better than me.)

1. There are excellent private special needs schools, but the tuition for those can often run to something like $30k+ a year. Special needs kids go there a) if their parents can afford it or b) when the public school system has been sued into supporting the child at a private institution because it has been demonstrated that the public school cannot offer them an adequate and appropriate education.
2. In the past, the answer to the problem would be to found a teaching order whose charism was running the sort of mixed schools that MonicaD envisions. Probably not an option in today’s US, but perhaps feasible elsewhere in parts of the world where there are more young nuns.

3a. In the US, this could be donor driven. If a private donor approached a diocese and said, I have $10 million to give to support special needs Catholic education, it could be done (as long as the diocese was reasonable). I haven’t been around diocesan offices, but I have watched the college fundraising scene, and in that environment, if a donor shows up with money to fund a particular thing, the thing will spring into being. $100 million donations are not unheard of in that environment.

3b. I have to add that donors, unfortunately, have their little weaknesses, chief among which is their desire to see their names on buildings, rather than to fund ongoing operations. Donors love shiny new stuff and buildings. Unfortunately, this conflicts with the special needs project we envision, because in the case of special needs, the primary expense is not the shiny buildings, but to pay for expensive labor.

3c. Just in case anybody reading this has a few million lying around and loves the idea, make sure to follow through on your donation! Don’t just give money and hope for the best. Follow up on it and make sure that if you give a million dollars, the project produces at least a million dollars worth of good and be very sure that your money is not simply funding existing programs that are doing just fine without you (freeing money up for use elsewhere). (I have some funny college stories that I can’t share here.)

 

[Xantippe]

One more note for our hypothetical rich and generous Catholic donor:

1. Funding aides would be a very good thing. (Not sure how you attach a brass plaque to a one-on-one special needs aide, though.)

 

[Estevao]

Would Jesus turn away a crying little girl who just lost her mother?

Nope.

Hey when she becomes an atheist who hates religion thanks to the time her catholic school had to look after its bottom line more than a little girl who’s mother just died, I guess you’ll know a little of why it is the Church is a joke amongst young people these days.

Those are my thoughts OP. Of course you have lots of folks ITT who are involved with the Catholic school system, but I’m involved in the apostate world of people under 30, so that’s my take. This would have also been my personal reaction knowing how hard it is to lose your mother at a young age.

 

[Xantippe]

Nope.

Hey when she becomes an atheist who hates religion thanks to the time her catholic school had to look after its bottom line more than a little girl who’s mother just died, I guess you’ll know a little of why it is the Church is a joke amongst young people these days.

Those are my thoughts OP. Of course you have lots of folks ITT who are involved with the Catholic school system, but I’m involved in the apostate world of people under 30, so that’s my take. This would have also been my personal reaction knowing how hard it is to lose your mother at a young age.

The family could have been told, “take her out for a mental health break for the next week or two or month until she’s on a more even keel” and the family (or more peripheral relatives) may have turned that into “banned forever!” and left in a huff.

It’s not unknown for widowers to be overwhelmed by their new responsibilities. One of the many mom jobs is finessing school, and a lot of dads aren’t up to it. My husband is a great guy and our kids are in a very good Protestant school, but whenever we have an issue with school (usually involving stupid bureaucratic stuff), his first instinct is to make it into a huge moral issue, not cooperate and/or to attempt to steamroll school. School (especially private school) doesn’t work like that. You have to at least meet them halfway, preserve the working relationships as best as you can, and you always have to think hard–is this the hill I want to die on? Moms, as a rule, are pretty good at that.

 

[MomaMary8]

God bless you and thank you. Oh goodness I never said anyone was bad and I hope I didn’t give that impression.

EasterJoy do you know what really puzzles me? Every time I bring up this topic people seem to get somewhat defensive or agitated and I am honestly confused. In no way am I critical of our wonderful Catholic school teachers or administrators. I am just saying we can and probably should do more. Shouldn’t we?

I find it curious and extremely sad that the same arguments used to marginalize people and children with disabilities out of parish and Catholic school life are the same that are used to pressure a woman to abort a child with disabilities and I don’t say that lightly. People say it’s going to be too expensive, it’s not worth it, it will be a burden to the other people, it will use up too many resources that will go to better use elsewhere and it’s too much trouble to go to for one or two individuals. I guess my hope is that as a church I hope we can at least try and take a fresh look at this in many of our schools and accommodate and welcome more students than we currently are!

I have seen success stories from around the nation, this isn’t my idea, and it isn’t new, this is already being done. There ARE Catholic schools that are doing this beautifully, God is good. Yet there seem to be so many that are not and they need our prayers and support and encouragement to welcome children with special needs.

Monicad, I have to agree with you in so many ways! Our local Catholic school (which we left) has smart boards, science labs, tablets, full running library with a paid librarian, hot lunch program, computer lab, etc. they have now put in a K-3 program (full day) and after care school care program. Before school care is coming soon. Why do we support all these things (all demanded/wanted/needed by parents) but not a program for special needs? All our dear Catholic special needs kids are in the public school programs. When kids go to the public school for high school they are finally introduced to the world of special needs where the programs are so loving and caring! I’m encouraging my daughter to be a public school teacher because it’s time we influence the public sector more, because I see too many negative influences being incorporated in the Catholoc school system ( sports games on Sunday!!). Are the large families are at the public schools anyway

Growing up, our catholic school had a special education section. We had recess together and didn’t think twice.

 

[Xantippe]

Monicad, I have to agree with you in so many ways! Our local Catholic school (which we left) has smart boards, science labs, tablets, full running library with a paid librarian, hot lunch program, computer lab, etc. they have now put in a K-3 program (full day) and after care school care program. Before school care is coming soon. Why do we support all these things (all demanded/wanted/needed by parents) but not a program for special needs?

Probably as that stuff is seen as being “for everybody”?