Catholic shift gives Democrats big boost

[dmelosi]

Thank you for yr response. I’ll respond more when I have more time.

For the record, I know I’m on a Catholic forum and the Catholic church has definate teachings about abortion. Therefore, I expect Catholics to defend the Church’s instructions.And that, even if I disagree, that I should respect Catholic teachings about abortion.
I do respect the Catholic church’s teachings. I believe good Catholics should not disagree with the Church about abortion, birth control, money worship, etc. If Catholics cannot agree, they should leave the Church. I suggest folks do not stay where they are not wanted.

However this thread is about politics. I’m an American citizen and I definately will discuss politics and the laws of my country. The thread is how the Catholic vote split for the Democrats. I suggest that many Catholics voted on issues besides abortion. BTW, didn’t the voters of South Dakota vote down an anti-abortion law that mirrored Catholic teaching? Why do you think that happened?

Mike, You seem evasive in your answers…first please anwer…are you a firm Democrat…second what religion if any do you live by?

I will answer directly why that happened. You please do in your responses…
I think that SD responded because they truly do no understand the laws that Christ set forth. Laws as I define them or what the Catholic church defines…please be as forthright in your response.

 

[MikeinSD]

Mike, You seem evasive in your answers…first please anwer…are you a firm Democrat…second what religion if any do you live by?

I will answer directly why that happened. You please do in your responses…
I think that SD responded because they truly do no understand the laws that Christ set forth. Laws as I define them or what the Catholic church defines…please be as forthright in your response.

I’m sorry. I do not understand you. PM me and let me know what you want to discuss.

 

[dmelosi]

I’m sorry. I do not understand you. PM me and let me know what you want to discuss.

I would like to find out what makes you tick.
Why do you think that the way we live has any basis, but as Christ taught us?
I read into your posts that you are not Catholic and make me believe that perhaps not a believer in God at all. I sincerely hope I am wrong as you post much in these forums.
If you would like to discuss this further, not in these forums, but in private, my yahoo messenger address is ccdchc2005 add me as a friend and I will accept and be glad to discuss.

 

[MikeinSD]

ok. will do

 

[chicago]

The suburbonites as you call them will have to answer to God.

Well, as a city boy, I’ve ALWAYS believed this to be true!

 

[HoppityRedux]

Mike makes a good point about how widespread murderers are in the country. And dmelosi reminds us that folks have to know what they are doing in order to be culpable. So, perhaps we can conclude that all Catholic women who have been told the pill is an abortificant are murders? And so are all the other women who have been told the pill is an abortificant? And I suppose their mates who are aware of the pill use would be accessories to murder?

How about all the folks who are involved in the manufacture of the pill? Accessories to murder? How about anyone who works for the stores that sell them? Accessories to murder? How about anyone who patronizes and supports stores that sell them? Accessories to murder?

Walmart sells birth control pills. So now everyone knows, and if they shop at Walmart, are they accessories to murder?

Sure are a lot of murderers running around.

 

[HoppityRedux]

There was a grave mistake in the above post that would greatly over estimate the number of Catholic women who are murderers. I should have written, "So, perhaps we can conclude that all Catholic women **using the pill **who have been told the pill is an abortificant are murders?

 

[gilliam]

There was a grave mistake in the above post that would greatly over estimate the number of Catholic women who are murderers. I should have written, "So, perhaps we can conclude that all Catholic women **using the pill **who have been told the pill is an abortificant are murders?

What does that have to do with the subject of the thread? Catholic shift gives Democrats big boost

 

[HoppityRedux]

What does that have to do with the subject of the thread? Catholic shift gives Democrats big boost

It has to do with a correction to a previous post. The connection to the thread is via questions from dmelosi about the credibility of murderers, and his observation that democrats are mostly pro-murder and republicans are mostly pro-life.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Oh really? You don’t say? So, if a candidate supports abortion only in cases where the mother’s life is in jeopardy and I vote for that candidate - I’m sinning? Oh Please!!!

Please nothing. According to church teaching, you ARE sinning if you vote for that candidate that supports abortion FOR ANY REASON !

The Bible supports rape (Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. -Numbers 31: 17-18 ) to which was commanded by God of the Jewish soldiers and yet I’m sinning if I vote for a candidate that supports abortion. WAIT A SECOND! Wasn’t God sinning when he ordered the Jewish soldiers to do what they did? So what’s wrong with THIS picture?

You do realize God is hypocrtical, don’t you? He commands us to love one anotehr yet couldn’t do that when he destroyed all those people in Sodom & Gomorrah. How can such a terrific being order us to love one another when he wipes out an entire community for being homosexual?

Are you saying that you have higher morals than God? If so, why don’t you create your own universe out of nothing and run it according to your own higher morals? If not, then don’t dare judge the actions of Almighty God.

Oh, and please don’t tell anyone they’re sinning when they vote or a candidate who’s pro abortion after all the Bible teaches us (in Matthew) not to judge one another.

The bible also teaches us that we have a duty to correct others when they do wrong or we will be held accountable …

Ezek. 33:8-9 … if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

I won’t judge you so please don’t judge me. Let me be the one to determine, if by my own moral and spiritual compass, if I’m sinning or not. Respectfully speaking, “Who are you sir to judge me?”

I’m not judging anyone but merely INSTRUCTING what the Catholic church teaches. If after having been informed of their position on the matter, if you wish to continue on the same path, that is your business for I have done my part as per Ezek. 33:8-9 above.

You see, I may be Catholic but when I walk into that voting booth I vote for me, NOT for the Church, andThe fact a candidate supports a position of the Church is completely IRRELEVANT to me. I look and see if the candidates support a position I support regardless if it’s in agreement or disagreement with the Church and that’s what everyone else should do. When you’re inside the booth the ONLY thing that should matter is who you fel in your heart of heart is the best choice. Voting for them simply because they agree with a Church position is not what’s in this country’s best interest. Besides, I don’t know of any one candidate that’s in agreement with everything the Church teaches. Boy, wouldn’t that be nice though? I’m sure many fo you fellow Catholics would just love the perfect, flawless candidate regsardless of his party affliliation. I’m even willing to bet that some of you would vote 3rd party or a candidate if they were in agreement with everything the Church taught simply because he or she were in agreement with everything the Church taught. Who cares about experience, how they match up to your positions, or what’s best for the country — I have no doubts some of you would vote for that person just because they were in agreement with everything the Church taught.

If you do not ACT as a Catholic and do NOT obey the teachings of the Church, then you are NOT a Catholic.

 

[Sir_Knight]

… never mind …

 

[ronhmason]

And the Catholic church has also spoken that those who support pro-abortion officials are also guilty of that serious MORTAL sin.

Think about how many Catholics voted for pro-abortion officials. How many of them are truly sorry for their actions? What happens to sin that is not repentant? It remains on the soul!

I totally agree with you. I firmly believe in the 5 non-negotiables and always vote for life. I could never vote for a pro-abortion political candidate.

 

[MikeG]

I have just read the past few pages and, as a result, concluded that we have lost track of what “Pro-life” means. We have allowed politicians to narrow its meaning to being for or against laws legalizing abortion. We have allowed politicains to pose as defenders of the faith by taking up a small cafeteria selection of teachings.

As a life time resident of the Chicago area, I am proud to quote Cardinal Joseph Bernadine’s testimony before a congressional committee,“Our concern with the quality of life does not end with birth.”

Many politicans are far from the Church’s teaching on many issues. This disconnect is not exclusive to any one political party.

Artificial Birth Control: Any presidential hopefulls taking a stand against that?

Gun Control: Does Catholic teaching say that we should make law enforcement both dificult and dangerous for our policemen?
While we clearly defend the unborn’s right to life, what is the sense of having babies born into a nieghborhood where they may die from stray or intended bullets?

Capital Punishment: Pope John Paul II made it clear that we have no need for this punishment in modern society which, I assume, also includes Texas.

Just War: Johm Paul II clearly decried our attack on Iraaq since it failed to fulfill the conditions long upheld by the Church for a just war.

Feed the hungry:

Care for the sick and aged:

Teach the ignorant who search for truth:

These and others, in my mind, are equally Pro-life issues. To decide whether a candidate is the only moral Catholic choice based on his position on abortion law is clearly short circuiting the process. (It also can short circuit the moral life by making us think that we can fulfill all our christian duties to our fellow men by voting a few times a year.)

Yes, I am Pro-life. But that does not identify my political party.

 

[dmelosi]

Mike makes a good point about how widespread murderers are in the country. And dmelosi reminds us that folks have to know what they are doing in order to be culpable. So, perhaps we can conclude that all Catholic women who have been told the pill is an abortificant are murders? And so are all the other women who have been told the pill is an abortificant? And I suppose their mates who are aware of the pill use would be accessories to murder?

How about all the folks who are involved in the manufacture of the pill? Accessories to murder? How about anyone who works for the stores that sell them? Accessories to murder? How about anyone who patronizes and supports stores that sell them? Accessories to murder?

Walmart sells birth control pills. So now everyone knows, and if they shop at Walmart, are they accessories to murder?

Sure are a lot of murderers running around.

Yes all of the things you say are happening. Pro abortion people keep chiseling away and trying to “dumb down” the fact that abortion is murder. Politicians are most responsible for allowing that to happen. Look how many Catholics view the abortion issue as not that important any more. A murder of a walking and talking person is not accepted by anyone. Abortion used to not be accepted by anyone, but look how that is changed. Contraception is not as visible anti life as the examples above and not considered by many to be wrong. The continued “dumbing down” factor has to be reversed. I truly believe that if Catholics understood the teachings of the church and why, that dumbing down trend would reverse. The Catholic Church makes so much sense, if the teachings are studied and understood, it would again become a black and white issue.

 

[estesbob]

I have just read the past few pages and, as a result, concluded that we have lost track of what “Pro-life” means. We have allowed politicians to narrow its meaning to being for or against laws legalizing abortion. We have allowed politicains to pose as defenders of the faith by taking up a small cafeteria selection of teachings.

As a life time resident of the Chicago area, I am proud to quote Cardinal Joseph Bernadine’s testimony before a congressional committee,“Our concern with the quality of life does not end with birth.”

Many politicans are far from the Church’s teaching on many issues. This disconnect is not exclusive to any one political party.

Artificial Birth Control: Any presidential hopefulls taking a stand against that?

Gun Control: Does Catholic teaching say that we should make law enforcement both dificult and dangerous for our policemen?
While we clearly defend the unborn’s right to life, what is the sense of having babies born into a nieghborhood where they may die from stray or intended bullets?

Capital Punishment: Pope John Paul II made it clear that we have no need for this punishment in modern society which, I assume, also includes Texas.

Just War: Johm Paul II clearly decried our attack on Iraaq since it failed to fulfill the conditions long upheld by the Church for a just war.

Feed the hungry:

Care for the sick and aged:

Teach the ignorant who search for truth:

These and others, in my mind, are equally Pro-life issues. To decide whether a candidate is the only moral Catholic choice based on his position on abortion law is clearly short circuiting the process. (It also can short circuit the moral life by making us think that we can fulfill all our christian duties to our fellow men by voting a few times a year.)

Yes, I am Pro-life. But that does not identify my political party.

The Church clearly states tha Abortion trumps every other issue you listed. No issue or combination of issues is more important than abortion. Thus when viewing a cnaidate if he supports abortion you should not even consider voting for them. the other issues come into play only when trying to decide between two canidates who do not support abortion.

*2. The Church teaches that abortion or euthanasia is a grave sin. The Encyclical Letter Evangelium vitae, with reference to judicial decisions or civil laws that authorise or promote abortion or euthanasia, states that there is a “grave and clear obligation to oppose them by conscientious objection. …] In the case of an intrinsically unjust law, such as a law permitting abortion or euthanasia, it is therefore never licit to obey it, or to ‘take part in a propoganda campaign in favour of such a law or vote for it’” (no. 73). Christians have a “grave obligation of conscience not to cooperate formally in practices which, even if permitted by civil legislation, are contrary to God’s law. **Indeed, from the moral standpoint, it is never licit to cooperate formally in evil. …] This cooperation can never be justified either by invoking respect for the freedom of others or by appealing to the fact that civil law permits it or requires it” (no. 74). ***

*”3. Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia. *

Joseph P Ratzinger

 

[dmelosi]

The Church clearly states tha Abortion trumps every other issue you listed. No issue or combination of issues is more important than abortion. Thus when viewing a cnaidate if he supports abortion you should not even consider voting for them. the other issues come into play only when trying to decide between two canidates who do not support abortion.

*2. The Church teaches that abortion or euthanasia is a grave sin. The Encyclical Letter Evangelium vitae, with reference to judicial decisions or civil laws that authorise or promote abortion or euthanasia, states that there is a “grave and clear obligation to oppose them by conscientious objection. …] In the case of an intrinsically unjust law, such as a law permitting abortion or euthanasia, it is therefore never licit to obey it, or to ‘take part in a propoganda campaign in favour of such a law or vote for it’” (no. 73). Christians have a “grave obligation of conscience not to cooperate formally in practices which, even if permitted by civil legislation, are contrary to God’s law. **Indeed, from the moral standpoint, it is never licit to cooperate formally in evil. …] This cooperation can never be justified either by invoking respect for the freedom of others or by appealing to the fact that civil law permits it or requires it” (no. 74). ***

”3. Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.

Joseph P Ratzinger

Perhaps this has been done before, but discussing The Encyclical Letter Evangelium vitae in a thread would sure be educational. I have not studied or read this in full, but will start today.

 

[chicago]

I have just read the past few pages and, as a result, concluded that we have lost track of what “Pro-life” means. We have allowed politicians to narrow its meaning to being for or against laws legalizing abortion. We have allowed politicains to pose as defenders of the faith by taking up a small cafeteria selection of teachings.

As a life time resident of the Chicago area, I am proud to quote Cardinal Joseph Bernadine’s testimony before a congressional committee,“Our concern with the quality of life does not end with birth.”

Many politicans are far from the Church’s teaching on many issues. This disconnect is not exclusive to any one political party.

It’s interesting that you would say that as some people argue that it was Cardinal Bernardin muddied the waters which were (they claim) oh so clear in the days when “pro-life” meant a matter of abortion and nothing else. This, they argue enabled politicians to hide behind those issues that they considered “pro-life” while paying little heed to other “life issues”, opening up the debate as to “who’s more pro-life?”

 

[Sir_Knight]

Gun Control: Does Catholic teaching say that we should make law enforcement both dificult and dangerous for our policemen?
While we clearly defend the unborn’s right to life, what is the sense of having babies born into a nieghborhood where they may die from stray or intended bullets?

The Catholic Church’s OFFICIAL position is in SUPPORT of the private ownership of firearms …

… In a world marked by evil, the right of legitimate defence by means of arms EXISTS. This right can become a serious duty for those who are responsible for the lives of others, for the common good of the family or of the civil community. This right ALONE can justify the possession of arms …

… taken from .

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[estesbob]

The Catholic Church’s OFFICIAL position is in SUPPORT of the private ownership of firearms … … taken from Holy See’s statement to the UN Small Arms Conference which can be found on the Vatican’s own website.

http://www.a-human-right.com/s_4children.jpg

Interesting. I learned something today.

 

[system]

The Catholic Church’s OFFICIAL position is in SUPPORT of the private ownership of firearms … … taken from .

http://www.a-human-right.com/s_4children.jpg

I never knew God and my church wanted me to pack heat!

I don’t know which gun to buy, or which ones my kids should have!

WGWJP?

What Gun Would Jesus Pick?