Catholic stance on spiritual connection to nature?

[Vico]

well it happens in mass so unless you are saying its the devil instead i don’t know what to tell you. its the same Spirit that i have witnessed cure incurable diseases and its the same Spirit i have witness rehab animals who have been abused.

if your argument is going to be that NO ONE knows the Holy Spirit or can identify it over time base on results, even priest and monks and nuns, then i will have to say you have gone to far in an attempt to disprove a point and have been misled by an institution that protects itself at all costs.

If I have a perception, then it is mine, not a perception of another person such as a priest. I assent to what the Church teaches but it does not inform me of my personal experiences nor do priests. I cannot say what you perceive nor the source of it.

 

[franklinstower]

you are right. you aren’t there and are not with the people speaking of their shared experiences during mass. you cannot speak to any of that. you might though be able to draw up some similarities from your own personal spiritual life in mass. i am sure you have experienced the presence of the Holy Spirit in tangible ways. but even in not you must know that many people do because they tend to be more mystical and for them the presence of God is pretty direct and apparent. it is like that for some people i know.

 

[Vico]

you are right. you aren’t there and are not with the people speaking of their shared experiences during mass. you cannot speak to any of that. you might though be able to draw up some similarities from your own personal spiritual life in mass. i am sure you have experienced the presence of the Holy Spirit in tangible ways. but even in not you must know that many people do because they tend to be more mystical and for them the presence of God is pretty direct and apparent. it is like that for some people i know.

I do not recall having any phenomenal spiritual experiences in Mass or Divine Liturgy. I am focused on prayer and singing during those times, rather than contemplation. There have been some phenomenal spiritual experiences that I have had, both when alone and with other people around, and even when very young. Nothing about other creatures, but sometimes spatial.

 

[Gorgias]

just spit baling here but i would suspect that animals path into heaven is tied up with humanities since we have been given dominion over them.

Yes! That’s it precisely!

The Church teaches that all of creation will be renewed in the eschaton, and God will create a new heavens and a new earth.

Now, does that mean that every creature that ever lived – every animal, every plant, every insect – will be recreated? That’s a tough one to wrap my head around, but it seems possible! (I just don’t want to be located in the mosquito section of heaven!)

it is now known that most animals can think rationally albeit in limited ways

We might have an interesting discussion about what “limited rationality” means, especially in comparison to human rationality, but those discussions usually end badly, so I’ll pass.

no reason that could not be a rational eternal soul.

The Church teaches that only humans were created “for their own sake”. So, I get that you disagree, but…

it seems to me to be apparently wrong that animals don’t have rationality and free will.

Do animals make choices? Yes. That doesn’t imply free will, though, as such.

Do they show evidence of having conscious thought? Yes. That doesn’t imply rationality, though.

i guess i don’t see the reason why scripture would need to tell us all of this about animals even if animals did have rational souls. it does not seem necessary that we know this.

If they had rational souls – like we do – then it would be sinful to end their lives. The Bible would be grossly lax, not to mention encouraging moral evil, if it didn’t tell us not to kill plants or animals. The logical conclusion is that they don’t.

Salvation is only for humans, per the Catholic dogmas.

Right, but all of creation will share in the eschaton. The difference will be the experience of the Beatific Vision.

i am mostly just looking for that Catholic argument that is solid enough to prove to me that animals and even plants don’t have eternal souls. have not found it yet.

With all charity, I wonder whether the issue is “a solid argument” or if it’s “enough to prove to me”…?

Aquinas’s argument has nothing necessary about it.

What would qualify as a “necessary argument”, in your eyes?

I do not recall having any phenomenal spiritual experiences in Mass or Divine Liturgy.

I assume you mean ‘phenomenal’ in the sense of “having physical phenomena” and not “amazing!”… right?

 

[o_mlly]

i hear you but i just disagree with the entire premise from animals having the same plan of salvation, or even need of it …

Perhaps this analysis might prove helpful.

If, as you say, animals sin:

Then it follows that animals also need a plan for redemption.

• All God’s creation is good.
• Man’s Original Sin corrupted God’s creation.
• Sin is an act against nature.
• The animal sins because the animal’s nature is corrupted.
• But the animal (like fallen humanity) cannot redeem themselves.
• The animal’s Redeemer must take on the animal’s nature (“whatever is not assumed cannot be healed”) and the nature of God. (Jesus is both human and divine.)
• The “animal-God” redeemer must exist for all eternity.
• Therefore, the “animal-God” Redeemer must be the fourth person of the Quaternity.

That conclusion departs from Catholic belief.

 

[Vico]

…
Right, but all of creation will share in the eschaton. The difference will be the experience of the Beatific Vision.
…
I assume you mean ‘phenomenal’ in the sense of “having physical phenomena” and not “amazing!”… right?

Yes, some will experience glorified bodies and a Beatific Vision. The Beatific Vision will vary in degree between different persons.

Not extraordinary, rather ordinary physical and ordinary spiritual.

 

[Vico]

…

Also, charisms are graces of the Holy Spirit, yet do not require a state of sanctifying grace. Similarly actual grace does not, such as that given for the purpose of conversion.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Catholic Stance on spiritual connection to nature ?

Read about St Francis of Assisi, you’ll find the answer there.

 

[John_Martin]

What specific scriptures are used to draw out the theology that animals and plants do not have rational or eternal souls?

Balaam’s donkey;

the LORD opened the donkey’s mouth, and she said to Balaam, “What have I done to you that you have beaten me these three times?”

The LORD gave the donkey the physical capacity to vocalize speech, but it is not written that the LORD gave the donkey intellect and then past intellitgible memory of events that were previously non-intelligible to a non-intelligent animal. So, the soul was present, but never used in this new way of speech before.

Solomon, the wisest man ever to write Scripture, and wiser in his writing than any of us today , would not in his writing of Ecclesiastes say that animals (beasts) are at an end when they die:

Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and the spirit of the animal descends into the earth?

Some people say these are not to be taken literally; shall we then also say that Balaam never spoke to the LORD, nor the LORD’s Angel, nor heard any word from the LORD to report back? Shall we say Moses never received commandments from the LORD, but made them up with his own reason, if there was even a Moses???

No, it is all real, all part of our confession of Faith - The Scripture is our Liturgy of what really is, and we profess it as we read. When we read we PROCLAIM, “In the beginning God created the Heaven and the Earth…” And we proclaim, “The LORD opened the donkey’s mouth, and the donkey said to Balaam,…”, and we assert, “the fates of both men and beasts are the same: As one dies, so dies the other—they all have the same breath… Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and the spirit of the animal descends into the earth?”

It is western philosophy, which I adhere to in most things, that “concludes” animals do not have eternal souls, yet a theologian, at best I think, can only echo Solomon, and say, “Who knows?..”

 

[franklinstower]

this is an unnecessary logic chain. have you read much theology at all? have you never read that God could have saved humanity in many ways, there have been endless speculations but that God chose to do it this particular way?

the problem with some of you is that you only point your imagination in the direction your opinion already points.

 

[franklinstower]

This is a wonderful reply. thank you for this. earlier i posted a reply from an Orthodox priest saying basically the same thing. the Orthodox Church has never made a definitive statement on the topic and they just admit that they don’t know.

i appreciate this kind of humility in spiritual leaders.

 

[franklinstower]

i have but my questions although posed simply are more complex. i would need to hear how the Church interprets the apparent animism in St Francis specifically.

my spirituality was much like his until i became Catholic. then it unfolded more like John of the Cross and Teresa of Avila. I am deeply grateful but still feel a tremendous loss that came from no longer viewing animals and even some plants as sentient beings and relating to them in that way.

i do not just mean mentally but spiritually. shamanism taught me how to have a sacred connection to nature and much, most of that was lost to me and never came back.

i am trying to find a way back now that is Christian and that has me questioning the theological and unnecessary proclamations about animals and souls in the Catholic Church.

 

[franklinstower]

yes i disagree with the Church. they are not infallible and have been wrong a lot throughout history. i trust them to lead me perfectly towards salvation. beyond that i am certain that they get things wrong quite often.

in light of the fact that the church gets things wrong i have to question very intensely its teaching on animals plants and souls as my own thoughts and experience suggest otherwise and the arguments against animal souls basically only boil down to “we think this based on philosophy”.

i have found in many areas of the faith that the Orthodox Church displays more humility and open mindedness in many areas of theological inquiry. i think they are more on the right track in this area.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Well I’m a Discalced Carmelite, Secular

So, St John of the Cross was my favorite and somewhere he wrote about seeing God in everyone and everything as an example of the contemplative prayer life.

The Church teaches as others have said, that animals have souls, but not human souls. They do not go on living as humans do. Christ never mentions animals in his teachings as far as I know. The salvation of human souls was the reason for his coming.

I think Fr Richard Rohr has some good work on nondualistic spirituality which is the fruit of a contemplative life. He’ll be attacked in this form, but so are most contemplatives.

 

[o_mlly]

this is an unnecessary logic chain. have you read much theology at all?

Glad you like it. But I do not claim it; it is in essence the work of St. Gregory of Nazianzus. Have you not read Patristic theology?

have you never read that God could have saved humanity in many ways, there have been endless speculations but that God chose to do it this particular way?

Nope. God’s plan for our salvation “conceived before the foundations of the earth” is singular and is the most complete and perfect plan. It’s the only way He rolls, i.e., always perfectly.

the problem with some of you is that you only point your imagination in the direction your opinion already points.

Methinks it is rather you. Imagination and opinion are necessary to underpin an idea that animals have eternal souls. Revelation and right reason reject such an idea.

Do you believe the Beatific Vision will leave you wanting if Fido is not there? The Catholic Church rejects such a claim.

 

[franklinstower]

yes i have noticed that too! the only person that approves of contemplatives is Jesus and that better be enough because you are not going to get it anywhere else!

i do realize that John had a connection to nature but the poverty i experience in this area is that it is just not spoken of or treated in any real way like it was in shamanism. we were given direct teaching on how to connect with nature in many ways. i abandoned all of that for 20 years thinking maybe it would be replaced with something but it has not been.

we were taught how to have a personal connection with animals and plants and it was really wonderful and real, not just a thought or idea about a connection. but we were also taught that all of these beings were sentient beings on one level or another so if you harvested a leaf from a plant you had to ask humbly to do that. we were shown how to do that and over time it lead to a profound connection to nature- not a worship of nature but a connection.

also so that i don’t get flamed. there are many aspect of shamanism that i think really are anti Christian and i don’t look to open myself to those again. it is just in this topic that i am investigating further.

 

[Inbonum]

When I became Catholic 20 years ago

yes i disagree with the Church. they are not infallible and have been wrong a lot throughout history. i trust them to lead me perfectly towards salvation. beyond that i am certain that they get things wrong quite often.

in light of the fact that the church gets things wrong i have to question very intensely its teaching on animals plants and souls as my own thoughts and experience suggest otherwise and the arguments against animal souls basically only boil down to “we think this based on philosophy”.

I somehow cannot imagine that you say this 20 years after conversion to Catholicism. I also understand that you came from shamanic beliefs to Catholic Church and that some things are hard to accept… But have you ever spoke to priest about this topic in these 20 years?

And secondarily where can I find the specific theological treatment of this topic in Catholic theology?

You can find it in st. Thomas Aquinas Summa Theologiae for example.

https://www.newadvent.org/summa/1072.htm

https://www.newadvent.org/summa/5091.htm#article5

 

[franklinstower]

why cant you imagine it? just for clarification.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

In Christian spirituality, nature is seen as gifts from God, not gods in themselves as this would be pantheism, which the Catholic Church rejects.

Seeing God in nature is wonderful and the Church fully appreciates this

Seeing nature as being divine, is not acceptable for these things will pass away.

 

[franklinstower]

i have not and do not see nature as God. rather it is nature filled with persons. its not pantheism its animism.