Catholic stance on spiritual connection to nature?

[Gorgias]

the problem with some of you is that you only point your imagination in the direction your opinion already points.

With all due respect… wouldn’t it also be fair to say that of you? That’s a human trait, I suspect, and not just something we’d accuse certain individuals of doing. You yourself wrote that your orientation toward this particular Scriptural interpretation flows from your past experience with shamanism!

i would need to hear how the Church interprets the apparent animism in St Francis specifically.

“Animism”? As in panentheism…? No, that’s not what Francis stood for. He stood for simplicity, humility, and love of God and of God’s creation.

yes i disagree with the Church. they are not infallible and have been wrong a lot throughout history. i trust them to lead me perfectly towards salvation. beyond that i am certain that they get things wrong quite often.

How do you understand the Church’s notion of “infallibility”? Perhaps that’s an issue here…

in light of the fact that the church gets things wrong i have to question very intensely its teaching

Case in point. What things does “the Church get wrong”, in your opinion? Doctrine? Or mere discipline?

I think Fr Richard Rohr has some good work on nondualistic spirituality which is the fruit of a contemplative life. He’ll be attacked in this form, but so are most contemplatives.

Umm… I don’t think he gets attacked for being contemplative. Just sayin’…

but now if feels like i have been repressing a true good in repressing the connection i had with nature and if seems like the Holy Spirit itself is/was drawing me to regain the connection that was lost. it seems like only dogma is keeping me from it while love is calling me to it

Wait, though… the Church isn’t telling “disconnect from nature!”. If that’s where your heart is, then go for it! Nevertheless, don’t confuse that tug on your heart with the notion that animals and plants have immortal souls. Rather, rejoice in the beauty and splendor of the universe that God has created! That doesn’t require everything in the universe to have an immortal, rational soul!

the Catholic Church makes very few infallible statements and the existence of souls in animals is not one of them.

It’s stated indirectly, by virtue of saying that humans are the only creatures created for their own sake, and that they’re created in the image and likeness of God. No, not every belief in the Church has an explicit citation, but they’re there, nevertheless.

 

[franklinstower]

this post is not really worth the effort of responding to it. its just nitpicking and such and i would have to get into the weeds to do so and in the end nothing would come of it.

i am convinced the catholic Chruch does get things wrong and often and not just on the level of discipline but of doctrine. I think they have often made the mistake of taking definitive stances when they don’t really know. This issue is one of them but there are others like the doctrine of eternal hell.

In every case where the Catholic Church says something that is obviously wrong I find the Orthodox Church has had more humility and more reserve and more wisdom. I find the Orthodox Church to have a greater share in Christ than the Catholic Church does.

But I am not here to discuss this issue at length. I only want to hear the specific arguments and scriptures where this teaching is drawn from. I think that has been provided for my consideration.

 

[Gorgias]

this post is not really worth the effort of responding to it. its just nitpicking and such and i would have to get into the weeds to do so and in the end nothing would come of it.

OK. If you think asking the question “does the Church teach doctrines authoritatively?” is ‘nitpicking’, then I understand your reticence in discussing the matter.

But I am not here to discuss this issue at length. I only want to hear the specific arguments and scriptures where this teaching is drawn from. I think that has been provided for my consideration.

Ok. Fair enough. Yet, if you hold to the opinion that you can pick and choose Church doctrines at will, then there’s really no skin in game for you, right? You can just shrug and go, “meh; they’re wrong.”

One last thought: there’s a quote by Augustine that’s often paraphrased like this - “if you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don’t like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself.”

Peace.

 

[franklinstower]

i would not mind in person verbally. its just too much work going back and forth online. i don’t find it enjoyable.

 

[o_mlly]

In every case where the Catholic Church says something that is obviously wrong I find the Orthodox Church has had more humility and more reserve and more wisdom.

Absent a pope, of course the Orthodox church has more diversity in its beliefs than the Catholic Church.

Of the four marks which identify the true church of our Lord, the first is oneness. The doctrines of the Catholic Church resulted from squabbles (usually among or between bishops) that, if left undecided, threatened to wound the mark of oneness. We are blest to have an inspired umpire.

 

[franklinstower]

i think the approach of having a Pope is a good one.

on the other hand it does seem to me that your idea of oneness is very limited. i am not denying the problem of having thousands of denominations of Christians running around on the planet. there is a serious problem here. however it seems most damaging when that denomination cuts itself off from Christian history and from the early Church fathers and when that diversity forgets its mystical union with the Body.

i stress our mystical oneness more than our theological oneness (within the bounds i have described above). i can experience oneness with all people though Christ. we don’t have to all agree on every single point for there to be unity. much of the arguing and bickering between denominations is a sin not a feature in my opinion.

when i have found denominations that do not cut themselves off from the Church fathers and from the Saints i have not been able to discern a lack in spirituality from not having a Pope. the Orthodox Church is a really good example of that.

the diversity of beliefs in the Orthodox Church seems in every way to be a better approach to me and its not like they have gone crazy promoting wild beliefs. mostly what they have done is left the discrepancies found in scripture there for people to wrestle with. they seem to have the humility to admit they dont know whereas i feel sometimes the Catholic Church has had the arrogance of mistaking philosophical thought for knowing.

ultimately i think it is a disorder of human beings that forces us to define everything and not leave enough room for mystery and unknowing. the truth is the power of God working in humanity and theology tires to explain that working of God. I have a deep respect for theology, Catholic and Orthodox but i realize that it is language describing a reality and not the reality itself.

the point is to be in touch with God’s power and be given teachings and morals and approaches that help one to be more receptive to that power and transformed by it. i see no less of that in the Orthodox Church than i do in the Catholic Church despite them not making so many definitives.

at bottom the only thing i care about is becoming a saint and i measure everything by its expedience towards that end.

it is to this end. mystical experience in the Body of Christ, that i dispute the primarily philosophically driven proclamation that animals do not have souls. i experience them as having souls no less than i do a human. i experience them responding to the Holy Spirit in the same although more simple ways. they can be healed emotionally and psychologically and physically no less than humans are. i can commune with them in the Holy Spirit and they are aware of the presence also…

this experience in the Holy Spirit is worth more to me than arguments that rely on an appeal to authority. it counts at least enough to retreat from Catholic definiteness to Orthodox open mindedness and mystery in my mind.