Catholic take on Palestine v Israel issue

[FaithfulAndTrue]

Christ promises do not count for the Jews. For in their eyes, Christ was not the messiah. All of the promises that came with the covenant, such as being the chosen people, also ment that the Jews had to keep their end of the covenant. They haven’t done so since the temple was destroyed.

Also, to support Zionism, is to support the pain of many Christians who lived there before they came. And also hurts the Christians who are oppressed by the Zionist. Ever see the wall?

Christ’s promises count for all who believe in Him. Even if there was still a temple, sacrifices there would count for nothing since Jesus was the fulfillment of the law.

 

[EzraJacob]

Christ’s promises count for all who believe in Him. Even if there was still a temple, sacrifices there would count for nothing since Jesus was the fulfillment of the law.

None of this matters in the case of the modern state of Israel.

Your talking of Christ’s promises. I am not. I am talking the the Old Testament where the covenant was made with Israel at the giving of the Torah.

 

[antonivs]

I forgot, collective punishment is okay. And resisting being kicked out of your homes, for hotels and synagogues is not okay. As well as the settlers who are endorsed by Netanyahu

I do to. But I am against Zionism. I believe Jews, Christians and Muslims deserve to live in the Holy Land. Zionism is hurtful to Christians and muslims.

And you think demonizing one side in the conflict is going to help?
You look on suicide bombing as legitimate resistance? :(
How about the launching of missles from Gaza?  Israel's actions aren't happening in a vacuum.  There is enough blame to go around.

Neither Israel nor the Palestinians are going to go away, Ezra Jacob.  The only way forward is peace negotiations.  Olmert and Abbas came very close to finishing a deal.  We must all do everything we can to support factions on both sides who are working for peace.

 

[EzraJacob]

And you think demonizing one side in the conflict is going to help?
You look on suicide bombing as legitimate resistance?
How about the launching of missles from Gaza? Israel’s actions aren’t happening in a vacuum. There is enough blame to go around.

I never said it was legitimate. Neither is military occupation nor military strikes on the whole.

Neither Israel nor the Palestinians are going to go away, Ezra Jacob. The only way forward is peace negotiations. Olmert and Abbas came very close to finishing a deal. We must all do everything we can to support factions on both sides who are working for peace.

The ones hindering the peace is the zionist.

I hope to see a secular state in the holy land. It would be nice to see a one state. But atleast go back to 67 lines and makes peace.

 

[danlaupat]

Christ promises do not count for the Jews. For in their eyes, Christ was not the messiah. All of the promises that came with the covenant, such as being the chosen people, also ment that the Jews had to keep their end of the covenant. They haven’t done so since the temple was destroyed.

Also, to support Zionism, is to support the pain of many Christians who lived there before they came. And also hurts the Christians who are oppressed by the Zionist. Ever see the wall?

Sir, I have been reading your posts and find them to reek of intolerance. I never join in on political discussions, but this one has gone too far. Speaking as a former Jew, converted to Catholicism, I will say that you make some offensive comments about the people from which I am descended (and darn proud of it too!) and that I am personally offended. It is unchristian. you speak of Jews “denying our savior” but* you *are certainly not acting like Him. I would take 100 God-fearing charitable Jews over this type of thinking any day.

 

[EzraJacob]

Sir, I have been reading your posts and find them to reek of intolerance. I never join in on political discussions, but this one has gone too far. Speaking as a former Jew, converted to Catholicism, I will say that you make some offensive comments about the people from which I am descended (and darn proud of it too!) and that I am personally offended. It is unchristian. you speak of Jews “denying our savior” but* you *are certainly not acting like Him. I would take 100 God-fearing charitable Jews over this type of thinking any day.

I am a converted Jew to. I have not said anything intolerant. I have only given my take on Zionism.

That said, is Neutre Karta intolerant as well?

Or are you talking about me mentioning that God said he will not uphold the covenant with Israel if they do not follow his commandments and decrees?

I am proud to of my Jewish heritage. Doesn’t mean I have to be a zionist.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I don’t think there is a specifically “Catholic take” on the issue. I think it’s an issue on which one has a moral obligation to inform himself, but upon which he may exercise his prudential judgment.

I do think there is a “Catholic take” on the issue of Hamas’ at least professed design on killing all the Jews, and not just in Israel. It’s right in the Hamas Charter and can be googled readily. Catholics cannot endorse a purpose of wiping out an entire group of people like that.

I do not know the Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem or anything about him. I do know that Muslim Arabs in Israel have more civil rights than in any Muslim land in the Middle East. Some are in the Israeli parliament. Some are high-ranking military officers in the Israeli army. Unlike in the Muslim Arab lands, their women can vote, don’t have to wear head coverings, can hold political office, can drive cars, can go to school, aren’t required by law to marry people chosen for them and aren’t legally stoned for alleged adultery. An Israeli Arab woman’s testimony in an Israeli court is as good as a man’s. An Arab Israeli man does not get his hand cut off for theft, either. An Arab Israeli Christian doesn’t have to pay a tax for being a Christian. His church doesn’t get bombed. His children are not forcibly converted to Judaism. His wife or daughter is not raped because she is a Christian. He is even immune from the draft, unlike Jews, Druze and Muslim Circassians. Arab Muslims are not subject to the draft.

Blacks are not enslaved in Israel, unlike in some Arab Muslim states.

Tens of thousands of Arab Palestinians work in Israel; something they would not do if Israel was such a horror for them. Many, many Arab Palestinian businesses are licensed to do business in Israel. How many Israelis can get licensed to do business in Saudi Arabia, where Christians can’t even worship or enter the city of Mecca, and where no Jew can land at any airport?

Arab Israelis have a better standard of living than anywhere in the Middle East outside the richest oil states.

There is no reason to believe that Muslim rule of the West Bank will be any more beneficent to Christians than Muslim rule in Saudi Arabia, Gaza, Iraq, Iran, Lebanon or any other Islamic state all of which Christians are fleeing if they are not already gone. Why are Lebanese Christians fleeing Lebanon? Why are Coptic Christians in Egypt having to fight for their lives? It’s because, as much as Arab Christians might wish to think otherwise, Islamic states are intolerant of them; sufficiently intolerant to murder them.

I don’t blame Churchmen who want to build peaceful communities inside the West Bank and to get along with their Muslim neighbors. I don’t blame them for that. But frankly, I think the Israelis know those neighbors better than the few remaining Palestinian Christians do…perhaps. It’s possible, too, that Churchmen in the west bank know better than to complain about mistreatment by Muslims, or to say anything favorable about Israelis. They’re captives, and not by the Israelis.

 

[Hail_Linus]

The time to discuss the legality or illegality of the State of Israel has come and gone. The situation is no different than European settlers who came to the Americas and established countries.

Do you really think the Israelis would not like to have better relations with the Muslims? This will never happen because of Islam and its Sharia law.

Israel will never give up its land. So if you want peace just accept that fact and move on.

 

[Hail_Linus]

I have attended the Melkite Church for over 25 years now and have NEVER met a Melkite (or any Christian Arab for that matter) who supports the illegal state of “Israel”. I find that very hard to believe (and stomach)!

SUPPORT PALESTINE!!!

Well the Melkite’s from Nazareth I know are sick of the terrorism and violence from the Muslim Palestinians. In fact, it seems all Eastern Christian Churches are being threatened in the Middle East.

You can scream “SUPPORT PALESTINE” all you want but Israel will never give up any of that land.

 

[Lapell]

As Catholics, who should we support?

Taking into account, the way the Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem describes the situationyoutube.com/watch?v=DFC-k9MgbaE
Shouldn’t it mean for us to support our brothers and sisters in Christ? Not to mention the Pope has shown his support for a Palestinian statehood, though I know since it is not doctrine we may disagree on his take.

PS, to mods, if this is in the wrong section of the forum, I am truly sorry. I think this issue does concern social justice. If I am wrong, forgive me.

From what I understand, the Church stated that the Palestinians have a right to have their own land, although she also recognizes the right of the Jews to have their land too.
And there are Palestinians and Palestinians, many being Muslims, but a good number of them being Christians…

 

[Lapell]

But other than that, I don’t think the Church said anything else specifically on Palestine v Israel, except for the repeated calls for peace in the Holy Land and for resuming the dialogue…

 

[Lapell]

(Maybe what I said was already said in previous posts.If this is the case, I apologize. My custom is to answer directly to the question ask on the starting post.)

 

[Lapell]

The church is the new Israel!! Not some Zionist state in the Middle East.

Maybe, but the Jews still are God’s chosen people, as saint Paul reminds us in the letter to the Romans, chapters 9, 10 and 11. And there are Jews in the State of Israel!!!

 

[Publisher]

Maybe, but the Jews still are God’s chosen people, as saint Paul reminds us in the letter to the Romans, chapters 9, 10 and 11. And there are Jews in the State of Israel!!!

There are Jews in the US too…as well as Canada…England…France…Germany and Poland…while True Israel includes God’s covenant people in some way…the State of Israel is a secular nation…it is not “Israel”.

 

[danlaupat]

I am a converted Jew to. I have not said anything intolerant. I have only given my take on Zionism.

That said, is Neutre Karta intolerant as well?

Or are you talking about me mentioning that God said he will not uphold the covenant with Israel if they do not follow his commandments and decrees?

I am proud to of my Jewish heritage. Doesn’t mean I have to be a zionist.

Nobody is saying you need to be a zionist… I’m certainly no Zionist but I am a Christian that dislikes intolerant talk about any other ethnic and.or religious group. I am not at all passionate about the politics of this topic but am most concerned about the negative blanket statements thare have been made about Jews and their rejection of Christ, their deserving of salvation, etc. . This is the very stuff that has led to centuries of persecutions agains the Jews, cruel and heartless persecutions.

It is my understanding that the individual you mention above does not support the existence of Israel for religious reasons, albeit strange and not something most people would find to be the thinking of the majority of Jews in the world… Anyone that is remotely anti-Israel loves to grasp onto that faction in order to support their anti-zionist views.

 

[FaithJoy]

Very true to say that the Israel and Palestinian issue is mainly a political one. Usually,people who support capitalism,freedom, and democracy supports Israel. People who support crony capitalism,socialism,and more gov’t control will favor Palestine. But, just one thought I bring at the table on the history of Palestine. Name please the leaders of Palestine BEFORE Arafat. Who were they? What forms of gov’t BEFORE Arafat were there? Name monuments or historical parts of their history? I can go on and on of Israel’s history. Can anyone do the same with Palestine? No. Palestine has never been a state. How can Israel take something from a gov’t when there was no such gov’t to be in existence? History, history is important here.

 

[EzraJacob]

Nobody is saying you need to be a zionist… I’m certainly no Zionist but I am a Christian that dislikes intolerant talk about any other ethnic and.or religious group. I am not at all passionate about the politics of this topic but am most concerned about the negative blanket statements thare have been made about Jews and their rejection of Christ, their deserving of salvation, etc. . This is the very stuff that has led to centuries of persecutions agains the Jews, cruel and heartless persecutions.

So now its intolerant to say the same things the early fathers taught?

Anyone, regardless of ethnicity will not find salvation unless the accept Christ.

It is my understanding that the individual you mention above does not support the existence of Israel for religious reasons,** albeit strange** and not something most people would find to be the thinking of the majority of Jews in the world… Anyone that is remotely anti-Israel loves to grasp onto that faction in order to support their anti-zionist views.

I was using them as an example of Jews being anti-zionist. Especially since you are falsely accusing me of intolerance because of being anti-zionist. Even as someone with a Jewish background, im still intolerant rolls eyes

If you can not prove me to be intolerant besides being anti-zionist, then I deserve an apology.

 

[EzraJacob]

Very true to say that the Israel and Palestinian issue is mainly a political one. Usually,people who support capitalism,freedom, and democracy supports Israel. People who support crony capitalism,socialism,and more gov’t control will favor Palestine. But, just one thought I bring at the table on the history of Palestine. Name please the leaders of Palestine BEFORE Arafat. Who were they? What forms of gov’t BEFORE Arafat were there? Name monuments or historical parts of their history? I can go on and on of Israel’s history. Can anyone do the same with Palestine? No. Palestine has never been a state. How can Israel take something from a gov’t when there was no such gov’t to be in existence? History, history is important here.

It was part of Syria, but British colonization stoped that. The native people lived there and lived freely.

If there was no Arabs before, then what, the Arab population mysteriously appeared?

Ill leave another note, if the USA government did some of the things Israeli government has done, what would happen?

 

[hamba2han]

I do not understand why Christian Zionists are so fond of quoting the Old Testament when declaring their support for Israel but they hardly ever mention what Jesus Christ (pbuh) says about Israel in the New Testament.

In Matthew 21:43, Jesus (pbuh) says to the Jews:

"Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."

How on earth then can it be possible for Jesus (pbuh) to support Israel when he returns after saying that the Covenant will be given to another nation??

Is there a single thing that Jesus Christ (pbuh) himself says in the New Testament which might indicate that he would support Israel when he returns?

In fact, on the contrary, I know of other verses in the NT where Jesus (pbuh) says things about the Jews which makes it virtually unimaginable that he would even consider supporting the state of Israel.

And so, Christians really do need to CHOOSE between EITHER believing the Zionists… OR believing the words of Jesus Christ (pbuh) as recorded in the NT when it comes to supporting the state of Israel.

They cannot believe both.

 

[Hail_Linus]

I do not understand why Christian Zionists are so fond of quoting the Old Testament when declaring their support for Israel but they hardly ever mention what Jesus Christ (pbuh) says about Israel in the New Testament.

In Matthew 21:43, Jesus (pbuh) says to the Jews:

"Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."

How on earth then can it be possible for Jesus (pbuh) to support Israel when he returns after saying that the Covenant will be given to another nation??

Is there a single thing that Jesus Christ (pbuh) himself says in the New Testament which might indicate that he would support Israel when he returns?

In fact, on the contrary, I know of other verses in the NT where Jesus (pbuh) says things about the Jews which makes it virtually unimaginable that he would even consider supporting the state of Israel.

And so, Christians really do need to CHOOSE between EITHER believing the Zionists… OR believing the words of Jesus Christ (pbuh) as recorded in the NT when it comes to supporting the state of Israel.

They cannot believe both.

I am not a Zionist. I am not going to get into a verse battle with you about what Jesus Christ (GOD) said and did not say. Anyway, since when do Muslims believe the Gospel? If you believed the Gospel then you would be Christian.

Tell you what…As soon as Christians are permitted to go to Muslim countries and preach the Gospel and when Muslims who convert to Christianity are not persecuted or sentenced to death then I will take your side.

BTW, what would happen to a Palestinian Muslim who converted to Christianity? What fate does he deserve? Would his civil rights be protected in a Palestinian state?