Catholic take on Palestine v Israel issue

[FaithJoy]

It was part of Syria, but British colonization stoped that. The native people lived there and lived freely.

If there was no Arabs before, then what, the Arab population mysteriously appeared?

Ill leave another note, if the USA government did some of the things Israeli government has done, what would happen?

What I said still stands.I know the history of Palestine or lack there of. I’m not speaking of the “land” history of the region. I speaking of the gov’t of Palestine. Again, name leaders before Arafat and the forms of gov’t of Palestine, not the land history.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Lets avoid personal comments and name-calling please.

 

[silicasandra]

Ill leave another note, if the USA government did some of the things Israeli government has done, what would happen?

Probably nothing would happen. The USA government has done some really terrible things. And most Americans have forgotten it, or justify it, or say, “well, that was so long ago” (which is not the case for everything.)

I agree with much of what you’ve said on this thread, but I become very uncomfortable when the moral behavior of the United States is held up as any kind of “standard.” There’s much that we’ve done that should never be repeated.

 

[FaithJoy]

I do not understand why Christian Zionists are so fond of quoting the Old Testament when declaring their support for Israel but they hardly ever mention what Jesus Christ (pbuh) says about Israel in the New Testament.

In Matthew 21:43, Jesus (pbuh) says to the Jews:

"Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."

How on earth then can it be possible for Jesus (pbuh) to support Israel when he returns after saying that the Covenant will be given to another nation??

Is there a single thing that Jesus Christ (pbuh) himself says in the New Testament which might indicate that he would support Israel when he returns?

In fact, on the contrary, I know of other verses in the NT where Jesus (pbuh) says things about the Jews which makes it virtually unimaginable that he would even consider supporting the state of Israel.

And so, Christians really do need to CHOOSE between EITHER believing the Zionists… OR believing the words of Jesus Christ (pbuh) as recorded in the NT when it comes to supporting the state of Israel.

They cannot believe both.

Once again, the Bible taken out of context from one who don’t believe in the Bible nor likes it.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Very true to say that the Israel and Palestinian issue is mainly a political one. Usually,people who support capitalism,freedom, and democracy supports Israel. People who support crony capitalism,socialism,and more gov’t control will favor Palestine. But, just one thought I bring at the table on the history of Palestine. Name please the leaders of Palestine BEFORE Arafat. Who were they? What forms of gov’t BEFORE Arafat were there? Name monuments or historical parts of their history? I can go on and on of Israel’s history. Can anyone do the same with Palestine? No. Palestine has never been a state. How can Israel take something from a gov’t when there was no such gov’t to be in existence? History, history is important here.

“Palestinian” is fundamentally a tribal designation, not a national one. One is a “Palestinian” if one’s tribe is recognized as traditionally being in Palestine, regardless of where one actually lives. The majority of Palestinians live in that part of Palestine we now call Jordan, and the majority of Jordanians are Palestinians, most of the remainder being Bedouins.

The majority of those living in the remainder of Palestine, taken as a whole, are Israeli Jews.

 

[manualman]

Let’s step back and recenter on the topic: the catholic take on the conflict.

First, and foremost, the catholic take must recognize that BOTH sides a descendents of Adma and Eve, and thus are sinners prone to selfishness and all the horror that sin begets (just like the rest of us). Nobody is pure good guy, nobody is pure bad guy.

Here’s my brief history of the issue:

1. 74AD Romans get tired of Jewish rebellions and destroy Jerusalem down to the bare dirt, killing man, woman and child. Surviving Jews are scattered around the known world.
2. Jews maintain their religious and cultural identities for the next 1,900 in small communities scattered around the world, but retain a core lament for the loss of Israel as a nation.
3. Improved methods of global communication and mobility in the 19th century result in two significant effects by the begining of the 20th century: A. Jews improve communications among their far flung individual communities and are acutely aware that Judaism remains more than just a tiny fragment in the world, perhaps enough to form a nation (the idea of Zionism takes root). B. Antisemitists communicate THEIR ideas more fully and form loose networks culminating in paranoia like the “Protocols of the Elders of Zion” and similar increasingly organized antisemitic sentiments. These two factors fuel each other and result in the beginings of migration of Jews back to Palestine.
4. World War II utterly uprooted Europe’s Jews and made them utterly uninterested in going back to Europe after being liberated from camps or their hideouts. They’d had enough of being weak, tiny minorities where they lived and decided the time had come to band together again for survival. Palestine was the natural destination and they went en masse.
5. The Zionists organized and attempted to settle immigrants peacefully. Land was bought (usually ‘worthless’ land paid for at exorbitant prices), kibutzes were established to provide housing and food for these immigrants and amazing feats of civilization were accomplished.
6. Native Palestinians reacted to massive illegal immigration and kibbutz building with xenophobia, paranoia and downright evil religious leadership. Armed conflict began as kibbutzes were attacked, land sales to Jews were banned and murder on the street became common place. Jewish vigilante groups also formed that often were as bad (sometimes worse).
7. The UN attempted to partition Palestine into zones to try to keep the peace and address the panic among Palestinians that they were going to be annihilated. Palestinians rejected the idea of coexistence and began to try to line up military support from neighboring Arab countries to massacre the Jews upon the ending of UN troop occupation. Jewish groups began illegal arms smuggling to arm Kibbutzes and to try to form an army.
8. UN occupation ended, Israel declared independence and the Arab coalition immediately attacked, after advising all Palestinian non-combantants to evacuate the war zone. Against all numerical odds, the Israeli forces soundly defeated the Arab coalition and established immediate borders at the front lines established by cease fires. Those Palestinians who had evacuated were NOT allowed to return as the Israeli forces (IMO somewhat justifiably) considered their evacuation to demonstrate that they were allied with the Arab coalition that had attacked Israel. Palestinians who had not evacuated or participated in the war, were eligible for Israeli citizenship. (This is all in the late 1940’s)
9. In the 1960’s, a new Arab coalition attacked Israel again, again with the stated PLO of eliminating Israel (reading not too subtly between the lines, eliminating all Israelis too). Again, Israel won the conflict and again they claimed much of the land won in the battles as spoils of war (especially those lands such as the Golan Heights which they felt would give their enemies strategic advantage in the event of another war). This also included the city of Jerusalem and made Israel geographically wide enough to potentially provide for adequate defense in depth.
10. Since the 1960’s, Israel has continued to deny citizenship to the people displaced in the original conflict and their descendents. These people have either emigrated (mostly to Jordan), or remain in unofficial ‘camps’ in the West Bank or Gaza.

I, for one, don’t have any foolproof ideas for how to resolve this. I have no doubt that there are thousands of innocent Palestinians displaced by this conflict for 60+ years now that are being unjusly treated by Israel. I also have no idea how Israel could give them true justice without slitting their own throats.

My personal take is that there is absolutely no justification for new settlements on Palestinian land anymore. Israel should either stop those folks, or pull back and let the Palestinians butcher them (with fair warning first). That sounds horrible, but it would achieve two things:

1. It would immediately stop all new settlements (they only continue now because they know the government will protect them).
2. It would immediately prove the savagery of the Palestinian leadership (not the average Joe, necessarily) and the need for Israel to maintain serious and credible security precautions.

After the settlement encroachment issue is fixed, the Israelis should offer a LONG term statehood plan that starts small and requires the Palestinians to earn the trust of the Israelis over a period of decades of small, incremental increases in openness that culminates (in say 30 years) with a shared Jerusalem that serves as BOTH capitals, sovereign borders and independent armed forces.

Again, neither side is eligible for sainthood. But if you dropped me, personally, into the middle of this war zone, I’d take my chances with the Israelis.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Let’s step back and recenter on the topic: the catholic take on the conflict.

First, and foremost, the catholic take must recognize that BOTH sides a descendents of Adma and Eve, and thus are sinners prone to selfishness and all the horror that sin begets (just like the rest of us). Nobody is pure good guy, nobody is pure bad guy.

1. The Zionists organized and attempted to settle immigrants peacefully. Land was bought (usually ‘worthless’ land paid for at exorbitant prices), kibutzes were established to provide housing and food for these immigrants and amazing feats of civilization were accomplished.
2. Native Palestinians reacted to massive illegal immigration and kibbutz building with xenophobia, paranoia and downright evil religious leadership. Armed conflict began as kibbutzes were attacked, land sales to Jews were banned and murder on the street became common place. Jewish vigilante groups also formed that often were as bad (sometimes worse).
3. The UN attempted to partition Palestine into zones to try to keep the peace and address the panic among Palestinians that they were going to be annihilated. Palestinians rejected the idea of coexistence and began to try to line up military support from neighboring Arab countries to massacre the Jews upon the ending of UN troop occupation. Jewish groups began illegal arms smuggling to arm Kibbutzes and to try to form an army.
4. UN occupation ended, Israel declared independence and the Arab coalition immediately attacked, after advising all Palestinian non-combantants to evacuate the war zone. Against all numerical odds, the Israeli forces soundly defeated the Arab coalition and established immediate borders at the front lines established by cease fires. Those Palestinians who had evacuated were NOT allowed to return as the Israeli forces (IMO somewhat justifiably) considered their evacuation to demonstrate that they were allied with the Arab coalition that had attacked Israel. Palestinians who had not evacuated or participated in the war, were eligible for Israeli citizenship. (This is all in the late 1940’s)
5. In the 1960’s, a new Arab coalition attacked Israel again, again with the stated PLO of eliminating Israel (reading not too subtly between the lines, eliminating all Israelis too). Again, Israel won the conflict and again they claimed much of the land won in the battles as spoils of war (especially those lands such as the Golan Heights which they felt would give their enemies strategic advantage in the event of another war). This also included the city of Jerusalem and made Israel geographically wide enough to potentially provide for adequate defense in depth.
6. Since the 1960’s, Israel has continued to deny citizenship to the people displaced in the original conflict and their descendents. These people have either emigrated (mostly to Jordan), or remain in unofficial ‘camps’ in the West Bank or Gaza.

I, for one, don’t have any foolproof ideas for how to resolve this. I have no doubt that there are thousands of innocent Palestinians displaced by this conflict for 60+ years now that are being unjusly treated by Israel. I also have no idea how Israel could give them true justice without slitting their own throats.

My personal take is that there is absolutely no justification for new settlements on Palestinian land anymore. Israel should either stop those folks, or pull back and let the Palestinians butcher them (with fair warning first). That sounds horrible, but it would achieve two things:

1. It would immediately stop all new settlements (they only continue now because they know the government will protect them).
2. It would immediately prove the savagery of the Palestinian leadership (not the average Joe, necessarily) and the need for Israel to maintain serious and credible security precautions.

After the settlement encroachment issue is fixed, the Israelis should offer a LONG term statehood plan that starts small and requires the Palestinians to earn the trust of the Israelis over a period of decades of small, incremental increases in openness that culminates (in say 30 years) with a shared Jerusalem that serves as BOTH capitals, sovereign borders and independent armed forces.

Again, neither side is eligible for sainthood. But if you dropped me, personally, into the middle of this war zone, I’d take my chances with the Israelis.

Two small things.

First, not all Jews left Palestine, ever. There were always at least some Jews there.

Second, there is no particular reason to believe massacre of Jews remaining in settlements would have any effect on anyone other than those massacred, and on Jews outraged by the atrocity who might then insist that Israel respond in kind, but far more massively.

 

[manualman]

Two small things.

First, not all Jews left Palestine, ever. There were always at least some Jews there.

Second, there is no particular reason to believe massacre of Jews remaining in settlements would have any effect on anyone other than those massacred, and on Jews outraged by the atrocity who might then insist that Israel respond in kind, but far more massively.

1. Yes, good clarification. Grossly simplified histories always leave out important details.
2. But the fate of the settlers would be in their own hands. The government would bear NO responsibility. Yes, it requires the political courage to stand up to the wrath of the Israeli right wing. But it WOULD be one of the first times the Israeli government ever took demonstrable action that defies the Palestinian assertion that the Israeli government only cares about Jews, regardless of how criminal they are and that they consider Palestinians (non-citizens) sub-human. It IS hard to see how current Israeli policy treats Palestinians any better than dogs. Wolves, perhaps.

 

[EzraJacob]

What I said still stands.I know the history of Palestine or lack there of. I’m not speaking of the “land” history of the region. I speaking of the gov’t of Palestine. Again, name leaders before Arafat and the forms of gov’t of Palestine, not the land history.

Ottoman Empire. They were under Greater Syria. Once the Empire fell the British jumped on a boat and came to see what they could do. Seem until the time the Brits left they didn’t have complete authority of their land.

Now, does this give the right of Zionist to kick Arabs out of their homes in Jerusalem and other cities so that more Jews can move in?

 

[manualman]

…Now, does this give the right of Zionist to kick Arabs out of their homes in Jerusalem and other cities so that more Jews can move in?

You know its rather more subtle than that, right? See my summary above and feel free to give feedback.

 

[EzraJacob]

You know its rather more subtle than that, right? See my summary above and feel free to give feedback.

I did read it. And the most feed back I have to give is that both sides are guilty of not allowing peace. They take turns playing the aggressor.

I do however believe the 67 lines will need to be taken by Israel and Palestinians given a right for statehood.

I believe both people should be allowed to live on the holy land.

Though Id love to see a one state solution, but that would involve having a pure secular government instead of a Jewish government. Something Zionist are against.

 

[Ridgerunner]

1. But the fate of the settlers would be in their own hands. The government would bear NO responsibility. Yes, it requires the political courage to stand up to the wrath of the Israeli right wing. But it WOULD be one of the first times the Israeli government ever took demonstrable action that defies the Palestinian assertion that the Israeli government only cares about Jews, regardless of how criminal they are and that they consider Palestinians (non-citizens) sub-human. It IS hard to see how current Israeli policy treats Palestinians any better than dogs. Wolves, perhaps.

I don’t think a massacre of Jews in the West Bank would be an entirely right wing concern. I’m not sure we Christians understand how profoundly Jews really feel about genocide inflicted on them. I don’t think any Israeli government could defy the reaction, and I don’t think there is any excuse that would serve.

I think that “worse than dogs” thing is overblown. Thousands of Palestinian Arabs from the West Bank work in Israel for Israeli wages and under Israeli worker protection laws. The “wolves” in it are the Palestinian leaders. But even worse than them are the “gang” leaders in the region, of which there are a good number and who are more dangerous to Palestinian Arabs than they are to Israelis.

 

[manualman]

…I think that “worse than dogs” thing is overblown. Thousands of Palestinian Arabs from the West Bank work in Israel for Israeli wages and under Israeli worker protection laws. The “wolves” in it are the Palestinian leaders. …

As it stands right now, the government of Israel official policy is that Israeli criminals (illegal settlers) are to be treated with far greater respect, deference and protection than the most honest and decent of Palestinians. It’s not “worse than dogs.” Just the same. The military stands guard day and night over the illegal settlers. The same military builds walls and makes decent Palestinian people stand in line at checkpoints (that often close with no notice and no alternative way to allow people to get to work). Face it, there’s a black and white difference in treatment, and the treatment they give Palestinians is not really any different than you’d treat a strange and dangerous dog.

Mind you, America operates EXACTLY the same way (in the war on terror) and I might too in a situation where my own family was threatened. We have a tendency to protect our own and to hell with the other guy. But that doesn’t make it just policy.

 

[manualman]

Too late to edit, but I don’t mean to oversimplify this. I’d rather nobody end up hurt. But there does come a point where a government must stop sheltering people from the consequences or their own illegal actions, especially after they’ve given said people ample opportunity and warning that the support will be withdrawn.

The whole settlement issue is an example of how this is just not a cut and dried issue with good guys and bad guys.

 

[hamba2han]

I know your afflictions and your poverty—yet you are rich! I know about the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. … (Revelation 2:9)

I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you. … (Revelation 3:9)

This, according to the New Testament, is what Jesus Christ (pbuh) said about those who claim to be Jews i.e. they are of the synagogue of Satan.

Who then today are claiming to be Jews?

Extensive historical research and DNA studies show that the present-day descendants of the ancient 12 tribes of Israel include the Pashtuns of Afghanistan and the Lemba people of Zimbabwe and South Africa.

And so, why are Zionist Jews claiming sole inheritance rights to the land?.. And this is especially galling when we also take into account similar genetic studies which show that the majority of the Jews in Israel do NOT even have a Semitic origin.

Why then are these people always brandishing the anti-Semitic card at people who oppose their evil policies and actions??

A good way to determine whether something is good or evil would be to apply the Ten Commandments.

You shall not steal → Who is stealing Palestinian land?

You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor → Who accused the Iraqis of developing WMDs and are now saying the same thing about Iran?

You shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighbor → Who covets East Jerusalem?

The answer to all of the 3 questions above is the bogus Jews i.e. the synagogue of Satan that Jesus Christ (pbuh) warned about in the Book of Revelation (Verses 2:9 & 3:9)

Again, when determining whether or not to support the present state of Israel, Christians really do need to decide who to believe i.e. the claims of the Zionist Jews… OR the words of Jesus Christ (pbuh) as recorded in the New Testament.

 

[Ridgerunner]

As it stands right now, the government of Israel official policy is that Israeli criminals (illegal settlers) are to be treated with far greater respect, deference and protection than the most honest and decent of Palestinians. It’s not “worse than dogs.” Just the same. The military stands guard day and night over the illegal settlers. The same military builds walls and makes decent Palestinian people stand in line at checkpoints (that often close with no notice and no alternative way to allow people to get to work). Face it, there’s a black and white difference in treatment, and the treatment they give Palestinians is not really any different than you’d treat a strange and dangerous dog.

Mind you, America operates EXACTLY the same way (in the war on terror) and I might too in a situation where my own family was threatened. We have a tendency to protect our own and to hell with the other guy. But that doesn’t make it just policy.

Characterizing it as “illegal” doesn’t make it so. What authority has legal jurisdiction over Israel? The grossly anti-semitic UN certainly doesn’t.

Think about what you just said. Israel is heavily guarded and so are Israeli settlements in the West Bank. Why? Because if they didn’t do it, the Israelis would be killed, that’s why. Are Arab Palestinians in Israel forced to build walls around their homes and barriers against Jewish suicide bombers? No. They live in peace. Arabs are able to live in peace in Israel, but no Jew is able to live in peace in any Middle Eastern state except Israel. What the whole thing really exemplifies is not Israeli perfidy but the perfidy of the Muslim world that won’t let a Jew live in peace. That’s the problem. The real one. But for that, there would have been peace long ago.

And it’s getting to where Christians can’t live in the Middle East anymore either. Are we to blame them for that as well? No, let’s put the blame on the ones who are driving them out, and realize that the Israelis are facing the very same thing and have decided that, no, we’ll fight first.

 

[Bezant]

The whole settlement issue is an example of how this is just not a cut and dried issue with good guys and bad guys.

Yes.

I once went to a conference that invited a member of the Yesha Council. Along with over-simplifying the Gaza threat and over-exaggerating the might of a potential Palestinian state on '67 borders he spat out a (nonsense) theory about making Jordan into a Palestinian state. But surprisingly his group does a great deal of shared community work with West Bank Palestinians.

 

[Bezant]

Maybe, but the Jews still are God’s chosen people, as saint Paul reminds us in the letter to the Romans, chapters 9, 10 and 11. And there are Jews in the State of Israel!!!

Maybe the return of Jews to Israel had a Divine Hand in it, but there’s nothing holy about the State of Israel anymore than the Holy See.

 

[Bezant]

Originally Posted by Bezant View Post
The Church has not made this a matter of doctrine (thank God). Historically and throughout today, the Church is not clearly aligned with either the Israeli or Palestinian cause.

Before answering any question of whose side we should be on, I assume Israel and its existence not as a religious or Providential matter, but as a strictly political one.

As a practical matter, the Israeli government has done well and prudently with the Christian holy cites in the Old City. Christian Israeli Arabs also face better opportunities under Israeli rule. They also face, IMO, better civil liberties as minorities in Israel than as minorities in a fledgling Palestinian state.

However, Israel has to make further improvements on the welfare of its Arab citizens and residents.

---

I think many political matters are being overlooked. Such as their mistreatment of non-Jews.

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I think many political matters are being overlooked. Such as their mistreatment of non-Jews.

OK, but this wasn’t meant to be an exhaustive response.

 

[brumano]

If you’re a betting man/woman, the safe bet is probably with God’s chosen people.

Really? I thought through the gift of His Son all become his chosen people.