Catholic Teaching and Immunization Policy

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I see all the same people here–does CAF only have 10 members now?

I’m not sure why my car analogy deserves to be dismissed summarily. Each time you pile your kids into a car and drive away, you put their lives at risk–and the risk is much higher than getting autism from vaccines (if there is such a risk at all). And yet there is no hand-wringing over piling your kids in a car. Why not?

And as others have pointed out, not getting your kids vaccinated isn’t just putting them in danger–it’s putting the entire population in danger. Some people can’t be vaccinated because of various medical conditions. And no vaccine I know of is 100% effective. This is not chemistry, where an experiment works 100% of the time. It’s biology, where there are all sorts of factors involved, including genetic differences, pre-existing conditions, undiscovered diseases, etc. So if your kid gets measles and spreads it to others…that’s your fault.

Also I actually worked for a vaccine manufacturer. I was in marketing–selling vaccines to ministries of health and hospitals in Asia and Africa. I had many conversations with the doctor in charge of the actual operations as well as the medical director. Their criterion was always the same: Would I give this vaccine to my own children? And yes, they would and did. So, although I am all in on corporate malfeasance conspiracies, it’s a whole different kettle of fish to start including medical staff in the conspiracies.
 
Erikaspirit16 said:
I’m not sure why my car analogy deserves to be dismissed summarily. Each time you pile your kids into a car and drive away, you put their lives at risk–and the risk is much higher than getting autism from vaccines (if there is such a risk at all). And yet there is no hand-wringing over piling your kids in a car. Why not?
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I don’t think it was summarily dismissed - not on purpose. I’ll apologize as I’m doing a lot of the yammering here and I know that felt very rude of me and all of us.

It IS a very good one. It’s far more dangerous to drive your kids on I-5 than it is to get a vaccine.
Erikaspirit16 said:
Their criterion was always the same: Would I give this vaccine to my own children? And yes, they would and did. So, although I am all in on corporate malfeasance conspiracies, it’s a whole different kettle of fish to start including medical staff in the conspiracies.
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Same here. I’ve talked to pediatricians - some very well known in their field. Immunologists and infectious disease experts as well - a few at a nationally ranked research university. They all vaccinate their kids.
Erikaspirit16 said:
And as others have pointed out, not getting your kids vaccinated isn’t just putting them in danger–it’s putting the entire population in danger. Some people can’t be vaccinated because of various medical conditions. And no vaccine I know of is 100% effective. This is not chemistry, where an experiment works 100% of the time. It’s biology, where there are all sorts of factors involved, including genetic differences, pre-existing conditions, undiscovered diseases, etc. So if your kid gets measles and spreads it to others…that’s your fault
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Yes. This a million times.
 
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"Students who for one reason or another /cannot/ be vacccinated. "

How do you determine this? I think this is a key statement. Nobody is saying vaccines CAUSE Autism. What they are saying is that they may trigger something which results in Autism in certain immunocompromised children. If we could determine which kids are vulnerable, then perhaps we could reduce Autism rates, or at least see whether even this small population can be helped. If you don’t think vaccines can ever have any correlation to Autism, then please read about Hannah Polling’s case.
 
Also, many people labeled as “anti-vax” only want to spread out the pace of certain vaccinations. For example, many people want the individual measles shot, the individual mumps shot, and the individual rubella shot RATHER than take them all in a combined MMR. This isn’t even lawful in England. It must remain lawful in the US. If we truly want compliance, we could start by being more flexible for the nervous among us.
 
No I’m not. Nowhere have I said that vaccines CAUSE Autism. If they did, then almost everyone would develop Autism. That’s not the case. But there are some people who are more susceptible to environmental harm - whether it be vaccines, or the mercury in a new mother’s fish filet, or in the air she breathes, or in the flame retardant chemicals in infant clothing and bedding. There have been studies which showed a correlation. Not causation. But the party line is that vaccines are 100% safe for everyone all the time. And that’s just not true. That is propaganda.
 
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Myles_Falworth said:
Also, many people labeled as “anti-vax” only want to spread out the pace of certain vaccinations. For example, many people want the individual measles shot, the individual mumps shot, and the individual rubella shot RATHER than take them all in a combined MMR. This isn’t even lawful in England. It must remain lawful in the US. If we truly want compliance, we could start by being more flexible for the nervous among us.
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No, they aren’t anti-vax in the least. No one here thinks that.
 
Myles_Falworth said:
"Students who for one reason or another /cannot/ be vacccinated. "

How do you determine this? I think this is a key statement.
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If you don’t have an immune system, vaccines don’t work. If you don’t have an immune system, an attenuated vaccine will give you the disease. If your immune system is compromised, both are possible. If you have a known allergy to any component, you don’t get the vaccine, you’re medically exempt. I don’t mean “redness at the injection site”, either. I mean an anaphylactic reaction type allergy.

It’s a clear-cut medical question in that regard, which is what I believe that poster was commenting on.
 
By the way. My “autism doctor” is an MD who is board certified in Emergency Medicine. My brother, who is a board certified Family Practice doc, met with him, and listened to his explanation of the mechanisms thought to either trigger or perpetuate Autistic symptoms. My brother was fascinated. He said the things the doctor was talking about were topics they all covered in Medical School, but which only a few specialists had to remember. A lot of it was about the Methylation cycle. My brother said this was one of the smartest docs he’s ever met.
 
What I was asking is - how can you tell if a child is immune compromised? Can we not identify kids who shouldn’t get vaccines a little more broadly than we have?
 
As I said, we’re talking about a preexisting medical diagnosis. We know who is and who isn’t. That’s what she’s talking about.

I think you’ve read a bit more into her words than what is there. We’re not talking about a two month old with no medical history. We’re talking about six year olds who benefit from herd immunity. Two year olds with cancer diagnoses. Kids with CF and aplastic anemia and SCIDS. People on immunosuppressants. Any cancer patient. Folks with lupus. I could go on and on with diagnoses that compromise the immune system.
 
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Well, many kids with Autism are either always sick, or always well.
 
But that isn’t immunocompromise. They don’t have faulty immune systems - unless they have something else that causes that.

When I worked peds autistic kids were no more or no less sick than anyone else.

People who seem to catch everything that comes down the pike (and lately I’m one of them) don’t have a “faulty” immune system in a medical sense of the word. It’s not a diagnosable disorder in that regard.
 
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Pup7, It’s clear to me that you mean well. I would like to show you a book which I read many years ago which got me thinking in this direction. It’s by an Emergency Medicine doc whose son was diagnosed with Autism. I’d really appreciate your thoughts on it. Dr. Jepson said in 2008 that it needed to be revised. I hope he will someday. https://www.amazon.com/Changing-Cou...sr=8-1&keywords=changing+the+course+of+autism

I gave a copy of this book to my son’s pediatrician and she read the whole thing. She told me it was a wonderful way to begin a conversation. I really love our doctor!
 
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Myles_Falworth said:
But the party line is that vaccines are 100% safe for everyone all the time.
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Not where I worked–in a manufacturer of vaccines. They were very much aware of the dangers. I asked the medical director to show me his records about adverse reactions once–he showed me a long conference table with binders from one end to the other. Everyone knows that there are reactions. The issue is not that they are 100% safe (NOTHING IS 100% SAFE), but whether it’s safer to get vaccinated than not to get vaccinated. And clearly the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of vaccines.
 
What I would like is for research to be done to identify which children are most at risk for adverse events. Perhaps it is a genetic test. Plenty of genetic research has been funded by Autism Speaks. It should be used to help new parents assess the risk to their child. Also, doctors and nurses should be counseled not to pressure parents about vaccination. Our son’s nurse told us that if we didn’t give all 4 vaccines that day, we could traumatize our son and make him afraid of going to the doctor. He was 18 months old! They should give recommendations but also discuss the very real risks and the benefits. Parents deserve informed consent. And parents need to have the authority to modify the schedule or opt out in certain cases. I will leave the country if anyone forces my son to get a second MMR. Not kidding.
 
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