Catholic Teaching and Immunization Policy

[Alex337]

cough my name again…

 

[Pup7]

HA! Caught it. I see what I did.

 

[Alex337]

thank you!

 

[Pup7]

Not a problem. I see what caused it.

I would NEVER deliberately misquote you like that!!!

 

[Alex337]

I know, thank you for fixing it

 

[Gab123]

Life is not a conspiracy theory. People and government entities really don’t have the time or the FUNDS for this sort of thing. Even drug companies - who suck, they really do suck - don’t have time for this.

yes. the problem is that when it comes to money life is full of people that are willing to falsify and fabricate data, especially if it means hiding scandals and avoiding lawsuits.

 

[Pup7]

I’m sure every single study on vaccines is just that. I’m sure you’re right.

 

[Gab123]

I’m sure every single study on vaccines is just that. I’m sure you’re right.

Not all; just the ones that are being challenged by other scientific research. You were the one that said your professor stated that any data could be analyzed in different ways to find the result one wants. I would be particularly suspect about data where whistleblowers come out and are demonized.

 

[Alex337]

People attempt to whistleblow everything. That’s how you get flatearthers. Antivax one’s are demonized because their actions lead to people dying, while flatearthers are just silly but not harmful.

 

[Pup7]

Not all; just the ones that are being challenged by other scientific research.

Which ones? Ones on thimerosal? Something that was never in the oft demonized MMR that was blamed for autism (and later debunked?)

Do you really think the industry went back and recalled every single ingredients listing from every previous year’s MMR from every vial distributed and reprinted them to eliminate the offending ingredient?

It was never in there to start with. It wasn’t thimerosal.

 

[pnewton]

Who we trust is not so much an issue as which sides ring false and which ones ring true. On this matter, I will keep my own counsel and my own notion of what seems true and false. The antivax movement is somewhere for me between the Earth being flat and global warming is false. I have spent a few hours looking into before I placed it among my own mental trash heap of kookiness. After a point, a decision must be made to stop wasting time with the snake oil salesman and kick him off the porch.

 

[blackforest]

You can be passionately pro-vaccine and pro-medical coercion as you want, but could you nix the mockery and name-calling? Give people the benefit of the doubt even as you inwardly lambast their “kookiness.” Shocker of all shockers, most “anti-vaxxers” [sic], that I encounter, as misled as you deem them, are kind people who care profoundly about children. No amount of righteous anger excuses the decidedly un-Christlike vitriol that I hear with this issue.

 

[Pup7]

I’m sorry, but if the hard core anti-vaxxers cared about kids, they’d stop listening to the bunk science and at the very least make informed, educated decisions over “vaccines cause autism” and “additives kill” and “big pharma and docs have agendas”.

Come to me and say “I think this is too many at once, can we space them out? I researched X - can you tell me why you think Y? I’m concerned because I read this, and I don’t think that’s something I want to give my child. What’s your view/the CDC’s view/the provider’s view/can I talk to the provider about it?” Then say, “I’m not comfortable with this and I think we’ll wait.” And that will get respect from the medical community. Don’t walk in telling me we’re causing diseases and we gave your kid autism (we didn’t) and we’re killing kids (yep, I’ve heard that) and that we’re irresponsible and snuggling up to big pharma (I’m military - they don’t pay me, the Feds do, and they don’t pay me a lot LOL).

(That’s a royal you. Not a blackforest you.)

That’s why people lose their minds with the antivax crowd. They sort of brought that on themselves.

Pnewton didn’t call you a name, nor was the post rife with un-Christlike vitriol. I don’t even think “antivaxxer” was directed at you. You’re too rational for that. (I don’t think of you that way either, for the record. You’re rational and you’re honestly trying to make sense of a loaded issue so you make what you think are the best decisions for your family. I get that.)

One can have a mental pile of kookiness (I do), and place what they want to place there. That wasn’t directed at you personally nor do I think it was posted about you in particular.

Bunk science goes in my own personal mental trash heap. Because it’s bunk.

 

[pnewton]

One can have a mental pile of kookiness (I do), and place what they want to place there. That wasn’t directed at you personally nor do I think it was posted about you in particular.

It was even more general than that. It was a mental picture of all the misinformation that is on the internet. There really are people who believe the Earth is flat, or that the moon-landing was faked. There is a conspiracy theory that 9-11 was a plot by President Bush to get a war rolling. This is an issue thought that actually affects a choice that people must make, so it does bear more scrutiny. I did look into the claims that this anti-vaccination movement make, more’s the pity. So a chunk of my life has been wasted already.

I get that the link between vaccines and autism was a good hypothesis (it was never a theory). But you simply have to drop a hypothesis when the data doesn’t back it. That is how real science works. You don’t double down on it and say there is some conspiracy.

 

[Pup7]

I get that the link between vaccines and autism was a good hypothesis (it was never a theory). But you simply have to drop a hypothesis when the data doesn’t back it.

I will own that I thought it too. Oh man did it fit.

And then we found out…it couldn’t.

It was actually a major disappointment for the medical community.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

I struggle with this issue as a Catholic: Unless you can guarantee with 100% unequivocal certainty that 100% of vaccines are 100% free of serious risk, a feat that science could simply never support, then mandatory vaccination will necessarily require that children suffer or perhaps die for the Herd, “the greater good” of disease prevention, whatever you want to call it. In my mind, this is a utilitarian and cynical view of humanity that I’d think would run counter to the Catholic faith.

And yet I bet you drive your children in a car. Can you GUARANTEE 100% that you will never have an accident that will injure them? Please.

 

[blackforest]

Respectfully, Swiss cheese has fewer holes than this analogy. Driving them in a car isn’t mandatory for school attendance. I take the risk at my own volition. I don’t drive for the “greater good” of society, (quite the contrary, when you consider the carbon footprint). And unlike with vaccines, I can sue the auto manufacturer, either individually or via class action, if the car is a lemon.

 

[blackforest]

I didn’t take the comment personally. I just found it vitriolic and mean-spirited. I feel impelled to hold my fellow Catholics (and, yes, myself!) to a higher standard.

That’s why people lose their minds with the antivax crowd. They sort of brought that on themselves.

This isn’t true. No one “brings on” another person’s rude behavior. We’re each responsible for how we behave toward others.

Come to me and say “I think this is too many at once, can we space them out? I researched X - can you tell me why you think Y? I’m concerned because I read this, and I don’t think that’s something I want to give my child. What’s your view/the CDC’s view/the provider’s view/can I talk to the provider about it?” Then say, “I’m not comfortable with this and I think we’ll wait.” And that will get respect from the medical community.

Thanks. But that was not at all my experience. It was all-or-nothing in those pediatric exam rooms. With more practices refusing to see people who don’t follow the vaccine schedule to the letter, (remember, we’ve delayed Hep B), I had the worst time finding a doctor to work with us. (Most stay quiet, I learned, lest they face professional censure). In other words, I had to FIGHT an uphill battle just to get my kids vaccinated. Let that sink in.

Bunk science goes in my own personal mental trash heap. Because it’s bunk.

Bunk science is frustrating. We all need to be attacking that and not mocking the people who espouse it.

Science continually changes, too, and I’m preaching to the choir (read: you) when I say that. Our society has lived through blood-letting, lobotomies, laudanum for “hysterical females,” ruptured silicone breast implants, thalidomide prescriptions for pregnant women, routine episiotomies for laboring women, the Cutter incident, 1970s swine flu vaccine, SSRIs making teens suicidal, and, of course, Vioxx. I’m not comparing these things to most of the vaccines that we take, but the point is that it’s good for all of us to stay humble and never get too dogmatic.

I appreciate all of the riveting dialogue but think I’ve beaten this topic to a pulp. I’ll try not to get drawn in again. (Don’t believe it 'til you see it, lol!)

 

[Pup7]

I didn’t take the comment personally. I just found it vitriolic and mean-spirited. I feel impelled to hold my fellow Catholics (and, yes, myself!) to a higher standard.

But the thing is, you’re not the parent here. None of us are. So why that train of thought? His standards aren’t your job. Not unlike this statement:

This isn’t true. No one “brings on” another person’s rude behavior. We’re each responsible for how we behave toward others.

 

[Myles_Falworth]

My son was fully vaccinated. He has classic Autism. I have read several books on the subject of Autism, its causes, treatment, and prognosis. I haven’t read the entire thread, but suspect I’m the only one here who actually has a child who may - just may have been affected at least partially by vaccines.

The nature of the discussion here only further convinces me that vaccination should NEVER be enforced by law. The basic line of argument in this debate always devolves to name calling. I hear claims of studies which are thoroughly convincing which show that vaccines are not correlated with Autism rates. I hear that a whistleblower at the CDC says the numbers were fixed. I hear that other studies show a correlation between vaccines and Autism, and I have yet to ever see any study which compares rates of Autism in fully vaccinated children versus the rates of Autism in non-vaccinated children. I don’t believe that study has ever been done. Many TV programs and articles which questioned vaccine safety have been taken down - censored - over the years by NBC, by PBS and by Carnegie Mellon University to name a few.

What I do know is that my son received four vaccines in one day when he was 18 months old. He never learned to crawl properly. He had terrible gas and bloating which we tried to treat with Mylicon. He screamed much of the time - often screaming himself to sleep at night. He lost the only two words he had started to say, including “Mama” and “hair” and didn’t speak any words again until he was 5 years old. He lost all eye contact and actively avoided eye contact, and was unable to tolerate being around other children, or even hearing birds chirp. He couldn’t tolerate stage 3 baby foods, and now has one of the most restricted diets in the nation - due to his extreme texture sensitivity.

His autism doctor took a blood panel which measured his antibodies for various diseases. His antibodies for Measles were extremely high after his initial MMR. So his pediatrician, and his school, allowed us to enroll him in school despite never having had his MMR booster. His autism doctor told us that skipping the MMR booster was the single best thing we did medically for our son. He is now 15 and much better, but still likely to never lead an independent life. I would like to plead with you. If you are going to criticize people who question some vaccines, please show us your evidence, instead of crying “propaganda” and “fraud” and “anti-vaxxer”. What we really could use is evidence from unbiased sources.