Catholic teaching on societal roles

[ahimsaman72]

LSK:

I am always puzzled when someone uses the phrase “supposed Catholic teachings”. Could you help me by quoting either from the Catechism, a magisterium document or other such specific source? I get so easily confused…I would appreciate it. Thank you!

If you mean that someone said one should never hide their light under a bushel and/or bury the gifts and talents one has been given by God, then your example certainly would hold true to that - Jane is using her talents to the best of her abilities. If, however, she just wants to work with children, and yet has a talent in administrative work and might do the children much more good by putting that talent to work as an administrator, perhaps she needs to examine her conscience and discern if she is doing GOD’s will or her OWN will…it would not be for us to judge.

No, I don’t believe the CC has taught an erroneous doctrine regarding the roles of society, but a Catholic here has stated his beliefs as being in accordance with the teachings of the Church. That’s why I have asked for clarification and it is clear from the majority of Catholics who have posted that his views are not in line with Church teaching.

 

[ahimsaman72]

vern humphrey:

Since Jane isn’t here to speak for herself I question the ethics of talking about her behind her back.

Talking behind her back? You asked for a real example and I gave you one and now you are saying we shouldn’t talk behind her back. I don’t think you know what you want frankly.

The quote from the CCC is from 2 Thess 3,10. In context (which is the Catholic way) it reads.:

Also 1 Thess 4, 10-12

The Church clearly tells us we must work. It also makes it plain that anyone who can work must not be a burden on others. Beyond that we are commanded to help others.

What has this to do with this?

Clearly we have a duty to maximize the talents God has given us for the benefit of all.

Work - hold a job - earn a living - got it. That’s exactly what teachers, electricians, carpenters and the majority of Americans do. What does that have to do with your assertion that all people should strive to be business owners or climb the corporate ladder?

Now is your sister going to tell us that she is working below her present potential? Will she say, in effect, “I know I could do more for the children if I took a position of greater responsibility, but I choose not to do that?”

Let her speak for herself

First you ask me what she would say and then in the next breath say…“let her speak for herself”. I don’t understand you at all. From now on you will be on my ignore list - I hate to do it, but I feel like it is beneficial for us.

 

[ahimsaman72]

vern humphrey:

I haven’t introduced examples – that’s your approach.

If I wished, I could simply go to the local jail and select any one of the prisoners. It would be easy to show how they violate Paul’s teaching that those who do not work should not eat. It would be easy to show how they are a drain on society, and how we are unable to do things like educate the children as they should be educated because of the funds we must spend on those who have thrown away God’s talents.

Examples are bad things? So, if a math teacher introduces a rule of math and then provides an example of how it works, then that is faulty logic somehow? Incredible.

Who is talking about people not working? The issue is people being a teacher (or carpenter or whatever) and being forced (by your philosophy) to climb the ladder of “success”. So, is a teacher a lazy bum who doesn’t work for a living?

NOW you want to introduce examples like going down to the local jail - FOUL BALL!!! you can’t do that - it violates something. Give me a break. Are you now equating the laziness and criminal acitivity of some to the hard work of devoted teachers, carpenters, etc in society? Please don’t insult everyone’s intelligence.

Play by the rules you speak of -

 

[ahimsaman72]

Pug:

The Vatican 2 document Gaudium et Spes could be somewhat useful to you. It can be found here, if you would like to read it. It is probably too long to be of use, though. It has stuff in it like:

I think a woman could decide to persuse a slightly different career if it fit into her total life better, like it gives her more time with their kids, or provides the opportunity to meet more colleagues, or allows her to attend daily mass, or whatever. It depends. How helpful, I know.

Finally! Thank you for your response. At least you have given me a direction to actual Church teaching. And, I agree with you.
Thank you, thank you, thank you - I don’t buy into the philosophy that says every person should climb the corporate ladder and achieve “success”. Successful living comes with fulfilling your role in life - whether it is as a businessman, mother, teacher, fireman, etc. Successful living in my book doesn’t equal material wealth and prestige, but is a life encompassing all aspects of our being - spiritually, emotionally and mentally.

 

[ahimsaman72]

There is a philosophy in pentecostal protestantism circles that is coined as “prosperity teaching”. Basically, this philosophy is this:
If you are in the service industry or trade industry you are not fulfilling your God-given right to wealth. If you are poor it is because you are sinful and lazy. If you are rich it is because you are “right with God”. This teaching goes on to proclaim that all Christians should be independently wealthy - they deserve it and God has given it to them - they just have to pray hard enough, do enough good deeds and seek the supreme goal of wealth - hence the name given it as “prosperity teaching”.

You can perhaps see this kind of philosophy on local stations in your area. Some examples of this are: Joel Osteen in Houston Texas. There’s Creflo Dollar in Atlanta Georgia and Jesse Duplantis. I see them every weekend praising wealth and money and “believe it and you will receive it”. If you don’t receive unlimited wealth you just aren’t good enough of a Christian.

It doesn’t seem like the Catholic faith supports this kind of position - do you good folks (as Catholics) believe this doctrine above is false or true?

Thanks -

 

[vern_humphrey]

itsjustdave1988:

Prayerful discernment, assessing one’s charisms, listening to others, allowing the Spirit of God to guide you.

And, after doing that, you find you have the ability to start a business, employ people who have no work, and generally make things better for your neighbors – and decide, “Hey, that’s too much work. I’ll just draw welfare.”

Would that be a morally acceptable decision?

itsjustdave1988:

Nobody even hinted at such a thing. Nor is it correct to say “people should strive upwards in society in all cases.” Christians “better themselves” by living more like Christ. “The vocation of humanity is to show forth the image of God and to be transformed into the image of the Father’s only Son.” (CCC 1877)

And does that say, “Throw away or ignore the talents God gave you?”

itsjustdave1988:

I disagree. We should discern God’s will in all circumstances without exception, and follow it. If this contrary to Catholic teaching, then it’s news to me. The faithful are sent forth “so that they may fulfill God’s will in their daily lives.” (CCC 1332).

And they can do that by throwing away or ignoring the talents God gave them?

itsjustdave1988:

I don’t know how Islam came into the discussion.

You have injected something very close to Islamic Fatalism into the discussion.

itsjustdave1988:
"It makes no difference what you do here on earth; what matters is the love with which you do it."* (Archbishop Fulton Sheen, Seven Words of Jesus and Mary, *30)

So there is no obligation to support the Church, for example? No obligation to educate your children? Or to provide a good home for them?

Throwing away or ignoring your God-given talents, dismissing your chances to make things better for your fellow man is not “doing it with love.”

 

[jman507]

It seems to me what would be best for society would be really hard to know. It’s just hard for any of us to come up with good standards. Even someone how has taken a vow of poverty still does a good. One should try to contribute something and provide little unneccassary burdens.

I mean you could say that a theologian might be more upwardly than a porter, but I’m sure there are some saints that are porters that are higher in the eyes of God than a theologian who does a poor job.

The main thing I think one should do is to do what you do well. Pray and discern what you should do. Remember the first shall be the last and the last shall be first. And the one given much, much is expected.

In the case of ‘Jane’ it may be that she can do more good as a teacher than as a principal. If she can do both equally as well, I’ll just leave it up to Jane. I’d just hope she takes in consideration, what she does best, where the need is, what she enjoys.

 

[ahimsaman72]

jman507:

It seems to me what would be best for society would be really hard to know. It’s just hard for any of us to come up with good standards. Even someone how has taken a vow of poverty still does a good. One should try to contribute something and provide little unneccassary burdens.

I mean you could say that a theologian might be more upwardly than a porter, but I’m sure there are some saints that are porters that are higher in the eyes of God than a theologian who does a poor job.

The main thing I think one should do is to do what you do well. Pray and discern what you should do. Remember the first shall be the last and the last shall be first. And the one given much, much is expected.

In the case of ‘Jane’ it may be that she can do more good as a teacher than as a principal. If she can do both equally as well, I’ll just leave it up to Jane. I’d just hope she takes in consideration, what she does best, where the need is, what she enjoys.

Yes, I agree and you know in thinking about this I think of not only providing materially for the poor and in need. What about about meeting the spiritual needs and emotional needs of people? Honestly, I’ve met poor people who were content with their lives who maybe didn’t give materially to the church as much as their wealthy neighbor, but were active in activities and gave of their time to help with manual projects or went on hospital rounds with the pastor, etc. How can we as a society put a dollar figure on that service to humanity?

I think it’s superficial for me and everyone to look at $$$$$ and not look deeper - thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut!!

Peace…

 

[vern_humphrey]

jman507:

It seems to me what would be best for society would be really hard to know. It’s just hard for any of us to come up with good standards. Even someone how has taken a vow of poverty still does a good. One should try to contribute something and provide little unneccassary burdens.

I assume you mean “avoid creating unnecessary burdens.”

There are a lot of things we don’t really know. For example, if you ask an aerospace engineer what makes a plane fly, in the end he will have to tell you we don’t really know – we have a lot of theories, and we can make planes that fly, but we don’t really know.

We do know that if we support ourselves, we do not burden society with having to support us. We know that if we make a surplus, we can use that surplus to help others. We know that if we are able to employ other people, they benefit – and society as whole benefits.

And we know we are called to aid and assist our fellow man.

We can therefore reasonably say that we have a duty to society – as the CCC says.

jman507:

I mean you could say that a theologian might be more upwardly than a porter, but I’m sure there are some saints that are porters that are higher in the eyes of God than a theologian who does a poor job.

Let’s not confound status with contributions to society. They are not the same thing.

And a theologian who does a poor job is clearly not maximizing his God-given talents.

jman507:

The main thing I think one should do is to do what you do well.

And do it as well as you can – never forgetting your duty to your fellow man, which may require you to work harder than you’d like.

jman507:

In the case of ‘Jane’ it may be that she can do more good as a teacher than as a principal.

If that is the case, then she is maximizing her God-given talent, is she not?

jman507:

If she can do both equally as well, I’ll just leave it up to Jane. I’d just hope she takes in consideration, what she does best, where the need is, what she enjoys.

Which is what I say.

And that’s why I say the critical question we should ask her is, “Do you think you’re maximizing your God-given talents at this time in your life?”

 

[jman507]

I can go with one has a duty to help and aid their fellow man, but how do you get to one must maximize their God given talent? How do you exactly know what must be maximized? Like you said there are lots of things we don’t know. If you don’t mazimize your God-given talent, is that a sin? Is God looking for value or growth investments?

It is important for a person to work, to try to make something that is needed to help himself and others. That we must maximize to make what we need to the largest possible extent, I think is going too far. First and most important is we make what we need and what those around us need. After that we can make some more, but we shouldn’t let that get in the way of our loving relationship with God and others.

 

[vern_humphrey]

jman507:

I can go with one has a duty to help and aid their fellow man, but how do you get to one must maximize their God given talent?

How do you get that one does not have a duty to maximize their God-given talent?

Does God not give us these talents?

Does He not expect us to use them?

Does He not command us to help our fellow man?

jman507:

How do you exactly know what must be maximized?

How do you know when you’ve committed a sin? Most people know themselves pretty well – they know when they’re working hard, and when they’re dogging it.

jman507:

Like you said there are lots of things we don’t know. If you don’t mazimize your God-given talent, is that a sin? Is God looking for value or growth investments?

I would say God is indeed looking for value or growth investments – He has invested in us. And He tells us that straight out:

14 "It will be as when a man who was going on a journey called in his servants and entrusted his possessions to them.
15 To one he gave five talents; to another, two; to a third, one–to each according to his ability. Then he went away. Immediately
16 the one who received five talents went and traded with them, and made another five.
17 Likewise, the one who received two made another two.
18 But the man who received one went off and dug a hole in the ground and buried his master’s money.
19 After a long time the master of those servants came back and settled accounts with them.
20 The one who had received five talents came forward bringing the additional five. He said, ‘Master, you gave me five talents. See, I have made five more.’
21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, my good and faithful servant. Since you were faithful in small matters, I will give you great responsibilities. Come, share your master’s joy.’
22 (Then) the one who had received two talents also came forward and said, ‘Master, you gave me two talents. See, I have made two more.’
23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, my good and faithful servant. Since you were faithful in small matters, I will give you great responsibilities. Come, share your master’s joy.’
24 Then the one who had received the one talent came forward and said, ‘Master, I knew you were a demanding person, harvesting where you did not plant and gathering where you did not scatter;
25 so out of fear I went off and buried your talent in the ground. Here it is back.’
26 His master said to him in reply, ‘You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I did not plant and gather where I did not scatter?
27 Should you not then have put my money in the bank so that I could have got it back with interest on my return?
28 Now then! Take the talent from him and give it to the one with ten.
29 For to everyone who has, more will be given and he will grow rich; but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
30 And throw this useless servant into the darkness outside, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.’

So it seems He does want us to maximize the talents He has given us (no pun intended.) He wants a return on His investment in us.

jman507:

It is important for a person to work, to try to make something that is needed to help himself and others. That we must maximize to make what we need to the largest possible extent, I think is going too far.

So the master was wrong to upbraid the servant who buried his talent?

jman507:

First and most important is we make what we need and what those around us need. After that we can make some more, but we shouldn’t let that get in the way of our loving relationship with God and others.

How does it “get in the way of our loving relationship with God and others” to maximize our God-given talents for the benefit of society?

 

[Ani_Ibi]

One of my greatest fears is not honouring the gifts which I have been given before I die.

I refer to the parable of the talents in Matthew 25:14-30 (DRC).

The man that had five talents invested them to make a further five talents. The man that had two talents invested those to make a further two talents. The man with the one talent hid it and returned it to the Lord when the Lord came to make a reckoning.

The Lord was happy with the men with five and two talents, but unhappy with the man with one talent.

My initial response to this parable is that we are expected to grow what we have. Growing seems to me to be part of natural law, part of the Gospel of Life.

Change is constant. Therefore, unless a teacher constantly upgrades his/her training either formally or informally, the training he/she received in 1970 will become obsolete and a thorn in the path of students in only a few years.

In my own case (adult education), I know that what I contribute is not really the opportunity for students to produce paintings and pottery. I do a lot of indirect fostering of ecumenism, vision, reasoning, problem solving, community, and even faith. (I sneak Catholic teaching into my lessons.)

By the same token, it seems I cannot ever be sure of what I should be doing next. I am sure that many of things I tried doing in the name of being a good Catholic were wrong. I was sincerely heavily invested in the Social Gospel but with the wrong emphasis. The Social Gospel was meant to include the Real Presence. Certainly a good majority of those working in socialist causes have no use for the Real Presence. So the Lord dealt with me.

I really do not have the answer to what I sense is the question here and am interested in hearing what people have to say. Certainly a sincere carpenter will increase his/her knowledge and skill and, by being able to offer more and more sturdy and beautiful work, he/she benefits the lives of more and more people. Good, well-constructed, well-designed houses are lasting influences in neighbourhoods and communities.

Does that mean that every carpenter has to become a general contractor or even a land developer? I dunno. Maybe geezerbob will give us some stories. Certainly if there is a need for general contractors and land development and the carpenter’s gifts are leading in that direction, then the carpenter is being called to invest his talents in climbing the ladder.

On the other hand, how does one differentiate between prideful ambition and humility? It is humble to climb the ladder when one is called to do so. It is also humble to eschew the rat race for inner calm, a life of faith, a good example for those who follow. Obviously much wisdom is needed to answer this question for ourselves.

One member of my extended family started out as a carpenter and ended up owning a resort hotel. Another carpenter simply held down whatever job he could find and raised a brilliant family. Another carpenter smoozed his way through life, crashed and burned, and lost pretty well everything. How does God see these people? I dunno. I would like to know because I feel that my own road to God lies, in large measure, in understanding the lessons of the carpenters in my life.

 

[ahimsaman72]

Ani Ibi:

Does that mean that every carpenter has to become a general contractor or even a land developer? I dunno. Maybe geezerbob will give us some stories. Certainly if there is a need for general contractors and land development and the carpenter’s gifts are leading in that direction, then the carpenter is being called to invest his talents in climbing the ladder.

On the other hand, how does one differentiate between prideful ambition and humility? It is humble to climb the ladder when one is called to do so. It is also humble to eschew the rat race for inner calm, a life of faith, a good example for those who follow. Obviously much wisdom is needed to answer this question for ourselves.

One member of my extended family started out as a carpenter and ended up owning a resort hotel. Another carpenter simply held down whatever job he could find and raised a brilliant family. Another carpenter smoozed his way through life, crashed and burned, and lost pretty well everything. How does God see these people? I dunno. I would like to know because I feel that my own road to God lies, in large measure, in understanding the lessons of the carpenters in my life.

Wow, insightful post.

Yes, the carpenter should hone his skills and be the best he can be. Whether he stays a carpenter or moves on to be a contractor is up to him and God’s leading. The same goes for a teacher. They need to stay up to date and be the best teacher they can be. If they choose to move on later to higher adminstration that’s between them and God.

If God has given us certain gifts (and He has) then we should use THOSE gifts for his purposes (because that’s why He gave them to us to begin with - don’t you think?). Like the Army slogan goes, “Be all you can be”. That’s a good motto for life. If God gave me the ability to fly a jet plane but I wanted to be a cashier then I should really look long and hard at that. I would be failing to follow God’s plans and wasting my talents (like the parable of the talents).

But, the demarcation line is this: if God has decreed that I be the best darn carpenter in the world then why would someone tell me that I should be a contractor? It isn’t up to any government, other individual or organization to decide my fate or encourage me to do something else. One’s life is wholly in the hands of God.

If God has instilled in me the attributes of a manager (I believe he has) then I should strive with all my being to be the best manager I could be and glorify God and be a good role model for my employees. Now, if I wanted to move up in my company that means going to the corporate office which is situated in a place we don’t want to go and which job entails traveling a large deal.

If circumstances changed then we would be open to a change. But, I would not want to sacrifice my time with my children just to be one more rung up the corporate ladder. My children have enough toys and clothes. They don’t need me to work away from home all the time just so that I can plop down a big check at the end of the week and buy them more things.

Thanks again for your post -

Peace…

 

[itsjustdave1988]

vern humphrey,

I have not made any of the claims you are arguing against, so it seems you want to shadow box against someone else’s position. My reply was to the initial post, and your objections to my reply have little to do with my actual view, but seem to be a refutation against some caricature of an argument which I do not hold.

I assert that 1) one must always discern God’s will, and follow it, regardless about one’s status in society. 2) Catholics are not obliged to “strive upwards in society in all cases” since that may indeed be contrary to God’s will. If you’d like to point to some magisterial teaching that show’s this view is contrary to Catholic teaching, have at it.

St. Francis is one among many to exemplify one who follows God’ will despite how it affected his status in society. I take Archbishop Fulton Sheen’s view and know that what matters is not what we do, but the love with which we do it, with the understanding that we are always obliged to do God’s will, not our own.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

You have injected something very close to Islamic Fatalism into the discussion.

Rubbish. I’ve asseted that one must discern God’s will, then follow it. This is Catholicism. I suggest you re-read the Catechism.

It appears to me Vern, that you are simply arguing for arguing sake. As a post-grad student in a Catholic university studying theology, I’m rather familiar with Catholic doctrine, and yet I’ve never seen the doctrine where we are obliged to strive upward in society in all cases. Instead, I think I’m on solid ground simply echoing what the Catechism teaches. If “striving upward” simply means being a good steward of the gifts given to us by God, then I say Amen! But if it means that a teacher ought to always strive to be a principal, then that’s garbage.

 

[ahimsaman72]

itsjustdave1988:

vern humphrey,

I have not made any of the claims you are arguing against, so it seems you want to shadow box against someone else’s position. My reply was to the initial post, and your objections to my reply have little to do with my actual view, but seem to be a refutation against some caricature of an argument which I do not hold.

I assert that 1) one must always discern God’s will, and follow it, regardless about one’s status in society. 2) Catholics are not obliged to “strive upwards in society in all cases” since that may indeed be contrary to God’s will. If you’d like to point to some magisterial teaching that show’s this view is contrary to Catholic teaching, have at it.

St. Francis is one among many to exemplify one who follows God’ will despite how it affected his status in society. I take Archbishop Fulton Sheen’s view and know that what matters is not what we do, but the love with which we do it, with the understanding that we are always obliged to do God’s will, not our own.

I’m glad to see that the Catholic teaching is not that “to strive upwards in society in all cases”. My confusion came about because it was portrayed as being such, and the reason for starting the thread was to get to the point of whether or not it was Catholic doctrine. If it was I wanted to view that information. If it was not Catholic doctrine and no source documents could be found, then I wanted to rest the case.

Thank you for your help. I have known you a long time and whether or not we agree you have always stated your position with clarity.

Peace…

 

[ahimsaman72]

itsjustdave1988:

If “striving upward” simply means being a good steward of the gifts given to us by God, then I say Amen! But if it means that a teacher ought to always strive to be a principal, then that’s garbage.

Well, by golly - we actually agree on something - imagine that .

Peace…

 

[Ani_Ibi]

ahimsaman72:

If circumstances changed then we would be open to a change.

Circumstances always change, and therefore we must be always open to change; not just change, but growth.

ahimsaman72:

But, I would not want to sacrifice my time with my children just to be one more rung up the corporate ladder.

Leading a visionary life is not a juggling act in a circus. One is not asked to toss one’s time with the kids up in the air while waiting for more work time to fall into the other hand. The most intensive learning experience that our kids have from us is what we do with our own lives, not what we do or don’t do with theirs.

Kids learn from example, not talk. When we weave our kids’ experience of life into our own experience of life, that is good time management. When we weigh our time against our kids’ time, that is bad time management. Weighing results in either neglect or resentment. Weaving results in acceptance, respect, and participation.

ahimsaman72:

My children have enough toys and clothes. They don’t need me to work away from home all the time just so that I can plop down a big check at the end of the week and buy them more things.

Toys and clothes are not the point in climbing the ladder. Just as pursuing the Social Gospel without the Real Presence is not the point in climbing the ladder. Climbing the ladder has everything to do with the way we adapt our gifts to change; the example we set for others; the influence our faith wields in the world.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

For those interested in studying *actual *Catholic doctrine, you can read what John Paul II taught regarding human work, here:

Centesimus Annus, John Paul II (1991)
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_01051991_centesimus-annus_en.html

**Labrem Exercens (On Human Work), **John Paul II (1981)
ewtn.com/library/ENCYC/JP2LABOR.HTM

You can also reading Leo XIII’s Encyclical on Captial and Labor, Rerum Novarum, (1891):

Rerum Novarum (On Capital and Labor), Leo XIII (1891)
vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_15051891_rerum-novarum_en.html

 

[vern_humphrey]

itsjustdave1988:

For those interested in studying *actual *Catholic doctrine, you can read what John Paul II taught regarding human work, here:

Centesimus Annus, John Paul II (1991)
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_01051991_centesimus-annus_en.html

**Labrem Exercens (On Human Work), **John Paul II (1981)
ewtn.com/library/ENCYC/JP2LABOR.HTM

You can also reading Leo XIII’s Encyclical on Captial and Labor, Rerum Novarum, (1891):

Rerum Novarum (On Capital and Labor), Leo XIII (1891)
vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_15051891_rerum-novarum_en.html

I’m not sure how this applies to the proposition that each of us has a duty to maximize the talents God has given us.