Catholic teaching on societal roles

[lifeisbeautiful]

vern humphrey:

I’m not sure how this applies to the proposition that each of us has a duty to maximize the talents God has given us.

Question: Do you think God would give us a vocation that does not maximize the talents He has given us?

 

[vern_humphrey]

lifeisbeautiful:

Question: Do you think God would give us a vocation that does not maximize the talents He has given us?

With no intent to offend, that is the wrong question. Let me rephrase it: Do you think there are people who will not maximize the talents God has given them?

The answer to that is yes. You can go around to jails, shelters and many other places and find people who have thrown away their talents and their lives in the process.

The point, you see, is that God also gives us free will. We cannot blame God if we do not follow our vocations and maximize the talents He has given us.

 

[ahimsaman72]

Ani Ibi:

Circumstances always change, and therefore we must be always open to change; not just change, but growth.

Leading a visionary life is not a juggling act in a circus. One is not asked to toss one’s time with the kids up in the air while waiting for more work time to fall into the other hand. The most intensive learning experience that our kids have from us is what we do with our own lives, not what we do or don’t do with theirs.

Kids learn from example, not talk. When we weave our kids’ experience of life into our own experience of life, that is good time management. When we weigh our time against our kids’ time, that is bad time management. Weighing results in either neglect or resentment. Weaving results in acceptance, respect, and participation.

Toys and clothes are not the point in climbing the ladder. Just as pursuing the Social Gospel without the Real Presence is not the point in climbing the ladder. Climbing the ladder has everything to do with the way we adapt our gifts to change; the example we set for others; the influence our faith wields in the world.

Wise words. Thank you…

Peace…

 

[ahimsaman72]

itsjustdave1988:

For those interested in studying *actual *Catholic doctrine, you can read what John Paul II taught regarding human work, here:

Centesimus Annus, John Paul II (1991)
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_01051991_centesimus-annus_en.html

**Labrem Exercens (On Human Work), **John Paul II (1981)
ewtn.com/library/ENCYC/JP2LABOR.HTM

You can also reading Leo XIII’s Encyclical on Captial and Labor, Rerum Novarum, (1891):

Rerum Novarum (On Capital and Labor), Leo XIII (1891)
vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_15051891_rerum-novarum_en.html

I appreciate the links. This is exactly what I wanted to see…

Peace…

 

[itsjustdave1988]

vern humphrey:

I’m not sure how this applies to the proposition that each of us has a duty to maximize the talents God has given us.

What is noteworthy is the distinct lack of an obligation to strive upwards in society in all cases in any of these magisterial teachings on human labor.

Certainly we are to maximize the talents God has given to us, for the glory of God. That’s what being a good steward means. However, that’s not the same as striving upwards in society in all cases, which was the thesis of the first post.

For example, I had an opportunity to be promoted, to receive a higher rank, more pay, and more responsibility. To do so would have required additional post-graduate military studies, and I’d have to accelerate my current Master’s studies. This would have taken time from other activities, such as leading my boy’s Cub Scout pack, teaching adult RE at my parish, teaching CCD, coaching my kid’s soccer teams and a baseball teams, and just spending time with my wife and kids. So, after much discernment, I decided the extra pay, rank, and responsibility was not worth it. I’m happily serving my country just fine in the rank I am in. Moving upward in society in all cases does not always mean you are being a good stewards of God’s gifts.

 

[vern_humphrey]

itsjustdave1988:

What is noteworthy is the distinct lack of an obligation to strive upwards in society in all cases in any of these magisterial teachings on human labor.

That reminds me of an argument I heard where on fellow was saying the priesthood and bishopric are invalid because priests and bishops "aren’t mentioned in the gosples."http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

itsjustdave1988:

Certainly we are to maximize the talents God has given to us, for the glory of God. That’s what being a good steward means. However, that’s not the same as striving upwards in society in all cases, which was the thesis of the first post.

How is it different?

itsjustdave1988:

For example, I had an opportunity to be promoted, to receive a higher rank, more pay, and more responsibility. To do so would have required additional post-graduate military studies, and I’d have to accelerate my current Master’s studies. This would have taken time from other activities, such as leading my boy’s Cub Scout pack, teaching adult RE at my parish, teaching CCD, coaching my kid’s soccer teams and a baseball teams, and just spending time with my wife and kids. So, after much discernment, I decided the extra pay, rank, and responsibility was not worth it. I’m happily serving my country just fine in the rank I am in. Moving upward in society in all cases does not always mean you are being a good stewards of God’s gifts.

And as a result you passed the burden onto someone else.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Paul VI seems to address both Vern’s concerns about poor stewardship, and the materialistic dangers of striving for upward movement in society in all cases…

***Populorum Progressio *(On The Development of Peoples), **Paul VI (1967)
vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_26031967_populorum_en.html

Authentic Development
14. The development We speak of here cannot be restricted to economic growth alone. To be authentic, it must be well rounded; it must foster the development of each man and of the whole man. As an eminent specialist on this question has rightly said: "We cannot allow economics to be separated from human realities, nor development from the civilization in which it takes place. What counts for us is man—each individual man, each human group, and humanity as a whole.’’ (15)

Personal Responsibility

1. In God’s plan, every man is born to seek self-fulfillment, for every human life is called to some task by God. At birth a human being possesses certain aptitudes and abilities in germinal form, and these qualities are to be cultivated so that they may bear fruit. By developing these traits through formal education of personal effort, the individual works his way toward the goal set for him by the Creator.

Endowed with intellect and free will, each man is responsible for his self-fulfillment even as he is for his salvation. He is helped, and sometimes hindered, by his teachers and those around him; yet whatever be the outside influences exerted on him, he is the chief architect of his own success or failure. Utilizing only his talent and willpower, each man can grow in humanity, enhance his personal worth, and perfect himself.

Man’s Supernatural Destiny

1. Self-development, however, is not left up to man’s option. Just as the whole of creation is ordered toward its Creator, so too the rational creature should of his own accord direct his life to God, the first truth and the highest good. Thus human self-fulfillment may be said to sum up our obligations.

Moreover, this harmonious integration of our human nature, carried through by personal effort and responsible activity, is destined for a higher state of perfection. United with the life-giving Christ, man’s life is newly enhanced; it acquires a transcendent humanism which surpasses its nature and bestows new fullness of life. This is the highest goal of human self-fulfillment.

Ties With All Men

1. Each man is also a member of society; hence he belongs to the community of man. It is not just certain individuals but all men who are called to further the development of human society as a whole. Civilizations spring up, flourish and die. As the waves of the sea gradually creep farther and farther in along the shoreline, so the human race inches its way forward through history.

We are the heirs of earlier generations, and we reap benefits from the efforts of our contemporaries; we are under obligation to all men. Therefore we cannot disregard the welfare of those who will come after us to increase the human family. The reality of human solidarity brings us not only benefits but also obligations.

Development in Proper Perspective

1. Man’s personal and collective fulfillment could be jeopardized if the proper scale of values were not maintained. The pursuit of life’s necessities is quite legitimate; hence we are duty-bound to do the work which enables us to obtain them: "If anyone is unwilling to work, do not let him eat.’’ (l6) But the acquisition of worldly goods can lead men to greed, to the unrelenting desire for more, to the pursuit of greater personal power. Rich and poor alike—be they individuals, families or nations—can fall prey to avarice and soulstifling materialism.

Latent Dangers

1. Neither individuals nor nations should regard the possession of more and more goods as the ultimate objective. Every kind of progress is a two-edged sword. It is necessary if man is to grow as a human being; yet it can also enslave him, if he comes to regard it as the supreme good and cannot look beyond it. When this happens, men harden their hearts, shut out others from their minds and gather together solely for reasons of self-interest rather than out of friendship; dissension and disunity follow soon after.

Thus the exclusive pursuit of material possessions prevents man’s growth as a human being and stands in opposition to his true grandeur. Avarice, in individuals and in nations, is the most obvious form of stultified moral development.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

vern humphrey:

And as a result you passed the burden onto someone else.

It was more of a trade in burdens. Since I didn’t see anyone else stepping up to be Cubmaster of the pack, nor coach, nor catechist, etc., in my discernment, it seemed the gifts God gave me were better served elsewhere. Being Dad is gift God gave me too, more precious than being promoted to Lt Col. “[T]he individual works his way toward the goal set for him by the Creator” (Paul VI). The USAF may have had different plans for me than my Creator.

“Every kind of progress is a two-edged sword. It is necessary if man is to grow as a human being; yet it can also enslave him, if he comes to regard it as the supreme good and cannot look beyond it.” (Paul VI).

 

[vern_humphrey]

itsjustdave1988:

It was more of a trade in burdens. Since I didn’t see anyone else stepping up to be Cubmaster of the pack, nor coach, nor catechist, etc., in my discernment, it seemed the gifts God gave me were better served elsewhere. Being Dad is gift God gave me too, more precious than being promoted to Lt Col. “Every kind of progress is a two-edged sword. It is necessary if man is to grow as a human being; yet it can also enslave him, if he comes to regard it as the supreme good and cannot look beyond it.” (Paul VI).

Nevertheless, someone must carry the burden.

And if we look around, there are many burdens. Someone, for example, must grow the economy for those children who are your Cubs – so they can get jobs and raise their families in turn.

Someone must pay the taxes for the schools, the police, fire departments, and so on.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

vern humphrey:

Nevertheless, someone must carry the burden.

And if we look around, there are many burdens. Someone, for example, must grow the economy for those children who are your Cubs – so they can get jobs and raise their families in turn.

Someone must pay the taxes for the schools, the police, fire departments, and so on.

So.

What does that have to do with following the Creator’s goal for me, versus the USAF’s plan of “progression?”

 

[kevb]

What about someone who is very gifted with a certain talent and is on the way to achieving success, but after a powerful conversion experience feels a potential call to a religious vocation that would require them to give up using this talent? In other words, does a call to religious life “trump” all worldly callings?

 

[vern_humphrey]

kevb:

What about someone who is very gifted with a certain talent and is on the way to achieving success, but after a powerful conversion experience feels a potential call to a religious vocation that would require them to give up using this talent? In other words, does a call to religious life “trump” all worldly callings?

What about it? Are you saying the obligation to maximize ones God-given talents somehow conflicts with ones religious calling?

 

[vern_humphrey]

itsjustdave1988:

So.

What does that have to do with following the Creator’s goal for me, versus the USAF’s plan of “progression?”

Can you honestly say you’re shouldering your share of the load?

I don’t say you aren’t – but when you object to the general proposition that you have a duty to maximize your God-given talents, you ought to at least ask yourself that question.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

vern humphrey:

… when you object to the general proposition that you have a duty to maximize your God-given talents, you ought to at least ask yourself that question.

I’ve never objected to such a thing. In fact, I’ve asserted just the opposite.

Vern, you seem hell-bent on putting words into my mouth. Perhaps you’ve been hanging around too many politicians. Nonetheless, knock it off. If you have something you object to that I’ve claimed, then quote me, don’t paraphrase me, as I find your tactics as either ignorant or dishonest.

 

[vern_humphrey]

itsjustdave1988:

I’ve never objected to such a thing. In fact, I’ve asserted just the opposite.

Your previous posts gave me the opposite impression. I apologize if I was wrong.

itsjustdave1988:

Vern, you seem hell-bent on putting words into my mouth. Knock it off. If you have something you object to that I’ve claimed, then quote me, don’t paraphrase me, as I see your tactics as either ignorance or dishonesty.

You are angry, aren’t you?

 

[itsjustdave1988]

vern humphrey:

You are angry, aren’t you?

When someone presumes to tell me what it is I believe, I find it rather disturbing, but mostly absurd. I come from the premise that I know best what it is I believe. Don’t you think that’s a reasonable premise? I’ve stated what I believe on this issue in this thread. You seem to argue against it, but not really. You instead seem to argue against something I’ve not claimed. Hence, my prior “shadow boxing” remark. So, it is rather baffling what it is that I’ve *actually *stated that you are objecting to.

 

[vern_humphrey]

itsjustdave1988:

When someone presumes to tell me what it is I believe, I find it rather disturbing, but mostly absurd. I come from the premise that I know best what it is I believe. Don’t you think that’s a reasonable premise? I’ve stated what I believe on this issue in this thread. You seem to argue against it, but not really. You instead seem to argue against something I’ve not claimed. Hence, my prior “shadow boxing” remark. So, it is rather baffling what it is that I’ve *actually *stated that you are objecting to.

What you mean isn’t clear to me yet.

What do you mean by this:

What does that have to do with following the Creator’s goal for me, versus the USAF’s plan of “progression?”

 

[itsjustdave1988]

What wasn’t clear in this statement of mine…

itsjustdave1988:

Certainly we are to maximize the talents God has given to us, for the glory of God.

… and how did you draw this conclusion of yours from it…
vern humphrey:

… you object to the general proposition that you have a duty to maximize your God-given talents

 

[vern_humphrey]

itsjustdave1988:

What wasn’t clear in this statement of mine…

… and how did you draw this conclusion of yours from it…

Your two statements seem in conflict – on the one hand you say you agree that you should maximize your talents, and on the other you say you have chosen what appears to be a different path.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

What do you mean by this:

Quote:
What does that have to do with following the Creator’s goal for me, versus the USAF’s plan of “progression?”

According to Catholic doctrine, we have a personal responsibility to follow the Creator’s goal, not our own. Thus, Paul VI states, “In God’s plan, every man is born to seek self-fulfillment, for every human life is called to some task by God. … the individual works his way toward the goal set for him by the Creator.” This is the authentic meaning of “maximizing God-given talents.”

The USAF may have a plan of progression that is contrary to that of God. If God want’s me to teach, primarily my kids, but then also others in my parish, then that is God’s goal for me, the reason he gave me the gifts he did. If I quit teaching so that I can spend more time trying to get promoted to Lt Col, then in this example, I am NOT authentically maximizing my God-given talents, although I may appear more successful according to the USAF and society.

This presumes that I know best what it is that God is calling me to do, by his actual grace. This also presumes that I have properly assessed what charisms I possess and what is the best use of those charisms in order for me to be a good steward of God’s gifts. I can be wrong. However, I’m pretty sure I know more about God’s calling for me than society or the USAF does.

What appears to you to be my calling from God is not what I’ve concluded through my prayerful discernment about my own charisms and calling. Futhermore, my calling from God may change. If I don’t listen to God as he guides me through the potential changes in my calling, then I’m not being a good steward. St. Francis of Assisi set out to be a successful military man. God had other plans for him.