Catholic tongues advice

[Portrait]

Hello all.

I am seeking some advice. I have been a Catholic for some time now after converting from Calvinist Anglicanism.

snip/

My question is, why don’t the majority of Catholics practice this and why isn’t it more known? My Pentecostal friend of course disputes the claims of our Great True Church and sadly some of those thoughts have entered into my head after this experience. If I saw much of the parish doing this I would feel better but I feel many are missing out. If Our Great Church is really the true Church of Christ then why isn’t the outpouring of the Holy Spirit more prevalent. It is possible that I experienced something unique and not meant for the masses? That the Holy Spirit gives difference graces to different members of the Body of Christ?

My Pentecostal friend claims every baptised member can receive the same gifts as I did.

In saying this I am not leaving Catholicism as I am being rational about it and remember my years of study and prayer that lead me to here. I feel at home within Catholicism. I am just a little confused and having a few of my beliefs challenged.

In saying this, is there a Catholic Charismatic movement in Sydney Australia? I would like to meet up with them? I can’t seem to find one.

Thank you for your time.

Peace in Christ.

God Bless.

Dear Dutch H,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Thankyou for your question.

First, dear friend, the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Spirit were indispensable in the early days of Christianity when the faithful had not yet experienced many of the signs of Christ’s presence that intervening history has offered. By their very nature they could only be but a temporary phenomena within the life of the Church. The more spectacular charismata, such as the gift of tongues (i.e. languages) and prophecy, were quite common to the first generations of Christians and were temporary helps given to the infancy of the Church. Once the Church had aquired a foothold in world they gradually diminished and died out, just as one would expect as the Church matured. When a building has been erected the scafolding is removed since the edifice can now support itself - the same with the extraordinary endowments of the Holy Spirit, dear friend.

Whilst it is quite true that since the emergence of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, the Popes (and some theologians) have given it their support and approval, this hardly equates with dogmatic magisterial teaching that cannot be dissented from by all the faithful. Thus, dear friend, men are, at least as I understand it, perfectly entitled in good conscience to respectfully disagree with them and still remain in good standing with the Church. Opinions should not be elevated to official binding teaching, a tendency that has become all too common among some contemporary Catholics.

The famous Baltimore Catechism surely states accurately what the Church has always beleived respecting the charismata down through the ages:

"Question 448. Why are these signs not continued everywhere at the present time?

Answer. These signs are not continued everywhere at the present time, because now that the Church is fully established and its divine character and power proved in other ways, such signs are no longer necessary".

Now, dear friend, as far as I am aware no one ever challenged the truth of this part of the BC or suggested that it was an untenable position that could not be sustained, except until very recent times when the CCR made its appearance on the ecclesiatical stage. This would strongly suggest that the CCR is out of kilter with the long standing tradition of the Church as regards the ceassation of the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Spirit. This is surely why the faithful ought to have this movement on enquiry and examine its claims in the light of the extrinsic tradition of the Church.

The CCR, dear friend, is of alien growth within the Catholic Church and is derivative, emerging as it does from Protestant fundamentalism and the so called ‘Jesus People’ movement of the late 1960’s. As such and given its spurious claims, it ought to be avoided by the Catholic faithful and given a jolly wide-berth. Undoubtedly many of the rank and file of the CCR display a religious fervour and are frequently orthodox as touching faith and morals and in this I would gladly rejoice. Nevertheless, the fact remains that they are seriously misguided, if not deluded, in their bold claim to be in possession of the extraordianry charismata, which have long since passed away. Whilst I would not stop to deny that they are sincere in their belief, they are still sincerely wrong and, like their Protestant counterparts, they have a zeal “but not according to knowledge”. They have formulated their distinctive beliefs and have passed them off as authentic Catholic orthodoxy and, sadly, many have been duped by their claims.

Of course we do want a lifeless arid formalism within our churches in these Laodicean times where worldliness is rampant. However, dear friend, neither do we wish to see misguided Catholics who are not firmly established in the consistent teaching of the Church and the good ‘ancient paths’ of old. A zeal not according to knowledge is shallow emotionalism and this will never see men through their darkest hours of affliction and trial etc. It is a ‘zeal’ that will ultimately disappoint as the endless quest for thrills and exciting experiences becomes stale. There are, dear friend, many disenchanted former Catholic/Protestant neo-Pentecostalists who would testify to the truth of this.

God bless you and it is my prayer that you will shun the Charismatic ways of our times, which will at length, even if not immediately, prove ineffective and unfruitful as regards the true pursuit of sanctity and separation from the world.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

 

[grannymh]

Glad to read all the nice information.
I like and do quiet prayer. But singing, I do sing loud in Choir.

However, there were pastors and people I met, who mentioned to me like tongues was kind of the first gift or sign of receiving the Holy Spirit. They imply or sometimes directly say, you have not received (or anointed with) the Holy Spirit yet (on the context of me being a catholic or an invalid Baptism due to not being immersed in water).

Pastors who can speak like this at me can still speak tongues and praise God kindling inferiority complex in me.

I was always sad in hearing what they say. I am not the arguing type.

I know God sees my feelings and their talk. I am not blaming them, because they have received some gift and instead of just thank God and cherish in it, they also try to communicate to others saying that it is essential for anyone’s spiritual life.

Because of this, still today, I assumed me being a below average guy who cannot score much in spirituality.

Well, God is giving me some understanding.

Thanks Friends

The Catholic Charismatic Renewal continues to correct the false impression that the ordinary, common gift of praying in tongues is some kind of sign or some kind of badge of a shinny halo on top one’s head.

In the Catholic Church, the Holy Spirit is received through the Sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation. If you have received the Catholic Sacrament of Baptism, please be assured that you are right up there with all the Saints.:clapping:

You have chosen a wonderful way to pray. When I pray in quiet, I have recently started to be quiet myself so I can drink in the presence of God. In addition, this is a good time to ask the Holy Spirit for His Baptism graces. His graces are for your use, your entire life. If you were baptized as an infant, in the quiet presence of the Holy Spirit, “renew” your commitment to God as an adult. If baptized as an adult, offer the Holy Spirit your thanksgiving.

Be sure to ask the Holy Spirit for His graces so you can live your life in the spirit of Catholicism. Perhaps His grace will help you to be kind to a difficult person. Perhaps, you will find yourself listening intently during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Maybe the Bible will add interest to your life. The daily graces of Baptism help one to pick up his cross and follow Jesus.

You can praise God in your quiet prayer and loudly in choir. Somewhere, there is the story of a widow who gave all she had. We “renew” our life in Catholicism by giving to God all we have.

 

[Aussiegal]

Dear Dutch H,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Thankyou for your question.

First, dear friend, the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Spirit were indispensable in the early days of Christianity when the faithful had not yet experienced many of the signs of Christ’s presence that intervening history has offered. By their very nature they could only be but a temporary phenomena within the life of the Church. The more spectacular charismata, such as the gift of tongues (i.e. languages) and prophecy, were quite common to the first generations of Christians and were temporary helps given to the infancy of the Church. Once the Church had aquired a foothold in world they gradually diminished and died out, just as one would expect as the Church matured. When a building has been erected the scafolding is removed since the edifice can now support itself - the same with the extraordinary endowments of the Holy Spirit, dear friend.

Whilst it is quite true that since the emergence of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, the Popes (and some theologians) have given it their support and approval, this hardly equates with dogmatic magisterial teaching that cannot be dissented from by all the faithful. Thus, dear friend, men are, at least as I understand it, perfectly entitled in good conscience to respectfully disagree with them and still remain in good standing with the Church. Opinions should not be elevated to official binding teaching, a tendency that has become all too common among some contemporary Catholics.

The famous Baltimore Catechism surely states accurately what the Church has always beleived respecting the charismata down through the ages:

"Question 448. Why are these signs not continued everywhere at the present time?

Answer. These signs are not continued everywhere at the present time, because now that the Church is fully established and its divine character and power proved in other ways, such signs are no longer necessary".

Now, dear friend, as far as I am aware no one ever challenged the truth of this part of the BC or suggested that it was an untenable position that could not be sustained, except until very recent times when the CCR made its appearance on the ecclesiatical stage. This would strongly suggest that the CCR is out of kilter with the long standing tradition of the Church as regards the ceassation of the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Spirit. This is surely why the faithful ought to have this movement on enquiry and examine its claims in the light of the extrinsic tradition of the Church.

The CCR, dear friend, is of alien growth within the Catholic Church and is derivative, emerging as it does from Protestant fundamentalism and the so called ‘Jesus People’ movement of the late 1960’s. As such and given its spurious claims, it ought to be avoided by the Catholic faithful and given a jolly wide-berth. Undoubtedly many of the rank and file of the CCR display a religious fervour and are frequently orthodox as touching faith and morals and in this I would gladly rejoice. Nevertheless, the fact remains that they are seriously misguided, if not deluded, in their bold claim to be in possession of the extraordianry charismata, which have long since passed away. Whilst I would not stop to deny that they are sincere in their belief, they are still sincerely wrong and, like their Protestant counterparts, they have a zeal “but not according to knowledge”. They have formulated their distinctive beliefs and have passed them off as authentic Catholic orthodoxy and, sadly, many have been duped by their claims.

Of course we do want a lifeless arid formalism within our churches in these Laodicean times where worldliness is rampant. However, dear friend, neither do we wish to see misguided Catholics who are not firmly established in the consistent teaching of the Church and the good ‘ancient paths’ of old. A zeal not according to knowledge is shallow emotionalism and this will never see men through their darkest hours of affliction and trial etc. It is a ‘zeal’ that will ultimately disappoint as the endless quest for thrills and exciting experiences becomes stale. There are, dear friend, many disenchanted former Catholic/Protestant neo-Pentecostalists who would testify to the truth of this.

God bless you and it is my prayer that you will shun the Charismatic ways of our times, which will at length, even if not immediately, prove ineffective and unfruitful as regards the true pursuit of sanctity and separation from the world.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

After all the informative and well thought out threads on Charismatic Renewal recently it still saddens me to read posts such as this.

Please be aware that in our Spiritual growth there is not one path or one way to find God in our daily lives. Please do not discount a person’s personnal spiritual experience or journey as “emotionalism”. I find it is not only insulting but disrespectful to the many who have rediscovered their faith through the Catholic Charismatic Renewal.

Do you know a persons heart? God will draw the believer how he chooses. Are we not all seekers? There are many ways to connect with God. Lack of understanding will not really benefit anyone especially the OP!

 

[Battleaxe]

Wow God is good Battleaxe. Father Peter Joseph performed my sacraments when I entered the Catholic Church. I am meeting him this Friday to discuss.

God Bless.

Thats great news. He shouldnt lead you astray.

 

[Battleaxe]

Wow God is good Battleaxe. Father Peter Joseph performed my sacraments when I entered the Catholic Church. I am meeting him this Friday to discuss.

God Bless.

Thats great news. He shouldnt lead you astray.

However, there were pastors and people I met, who mentioned to me like tongues was kind of the first gift or sign of receiving the Holy Spirit. They imply or sometimes directly say, you have not received (or anointed with) the Holy Spirit yet (on the context of me being a catholic or an invalid Baptism due to not being immersed in water)…

Pastors who can speak like this at me can still speak tongues and praise God kindling inferiority complex in me…

Because of this, still today, I assumed me being a below average guy who cannot score much in spirituality…

Dont let any of them put one over you. im sure the way some of these people carry on shows spiritual immaturity.

 

[IanGE]

First, dear friend, the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Spirit were indispensable in the early days of Christianity when the faithful had not yet experienced many of the signs of Christ’s presence that intervening history has offered. By their very nature they could only be but a temporary phenomena within the life of the Church. The more spectacular charismata, such as the gift of tongues (i.e. languages) and prophecy, were quite common to the first generations of Christians and were temporary helps given to the infancy of the Church. **Once the Church had aquired a foothold in world they gradually diminished and died out, ** just as one would expect as the Church matured. **When a building has been erected the scafolding is **removed since the edifice can now support itself ****- the same with the extraordinary endowments of the Holy Spirit, dear friend.

Temporary? There are now almost as many Charismatics, demonstrating the signs that JESUS said would accompany the True Believer, as Catholics.
How true that once the church had acquired a foothold in the WORLD, the spiritual signs left it. I hope you realise what you’ve written.
The church is not a BUILDING, it is people called out by Jesus: not supported externally by scaffolding, but internally by the Holy Spirit who Jesus sent to be the teacher, the counsellor, the comforter to the PEOPLE of Jesus’ church.

dear friend, men are, at least as I understand it, perfectly entitled in good conscience to respectfully disagree with them and still remain in good standing with the Church.
Men may disagree with the Holy Spirit to remain in good standing with the church. But they stand in danger of the unforgiveable sin: Luke 12:10, “anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.”

Answer. These signs are not continued everywhere at the present time, because now that the Church is fully established and its divine character and power proved in other ways, such signs are no longer necessary".
Why then has GOD chosen to renew Holy Spirit activity on Earth? Are you telling God such signs are not necessary?

This would strongly suggest that the CCR is out of kilter with [the long standing tradition of the Church as regards the ceassation of the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Spirit[/COLOR]

.
The signs have not ceased, they have been renewed - in the face of tradition. The Word of God and the Holy Spirit will not be mocked. And dismissing Charisms bestowed by the Holy Spirit as “alien growth” is horrendous.

The CCR, dear friend, is of alien growth within the Catholic Church the factremains that they are seriously misguided, if not deluded

Again, are you calling Jesus and the Holy Spirit sent by Him liars?

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

Why are so many people upset by the Charisms: OK tongues sound wierd to unbelievers, but healing is a marvellous gift: prior to being Born Again I felt frustrated that I couldn’t HELP someone in pain or sickness. Yes, I prayed, but nothing seemed to happen. Dismiss this if you wish, but I have laid hands on some seven people IN THE NAME OF JESUS and all around witnessed MIRACULOUS healings: through my unworthy hands (the Lord immediately reminds me we have been MADE worthy through his sacrifice on the cross! - which I ACCEPT). I don’t know how many other healings have been cured via my obedience to Jesus: His healings are not just cures of bodily ailments but a whole spiritual make-over. Inner healing is so often the true cure for external symptoms. I used to get nigged when I didn’t SEE a healing, but the Lord reminded me a long time ago that my faith no longer needs confirmation: “you have done your part, Ian, now let me do mine!” I am on my knees in deepest gratitude to my Lord for letting me DO something positive to relieve HIS ailing children AND people. Don’t you guys WANT to do something positive for the sick, possessed, prisoners in bondage to this and that and working FOR and WITH and IN Jesus?

 

[grannymh]

Dear Dutch H,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Thankyou for your question.

May I sincerely thank you for your respectful presentation of some of the history connected to the early charismatic movements.

Having researched what has been previously presented over the years, I personally not only find this background interesting but valuable in evaluating the Catholic Charismatic renewal.

First, dear friend, the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Spirit were indispensable in the early days of Christianity when the faithful had not yet experienced many of the signs of Christ’s presence that intervening history has offered. By their very nature they could only be but a temporary phenomena within the life of the Church. The more spectacular charismata, such as the gift of tongues (i.e. languages) and prophecy, were quite common to the first generations of Christians and were temporary helps given to the infancy of the Church. Once the Church had aquired a foothold in world they gradually diminished and died out, just as one would expect as the Church matured. When a building has been erected the scafolding is removed since the edifice can now support itself - the same with the extraordinary endowments of the Holy Spirit, dear friend.

In general, this is a common conclusion. In addition, there was a heretical group which misused some of the original gifts taught by St. Paul.

The extreme difficulty of we moderns is that due to our lack of complete knowledge of St. Paul and the gifts of the Holy Spirit (please refer to his writings on the Mystical Body of Christ) we tend to errors in regard to St. Paul’s teachings.

For example, there is major confusion among Catholics regarding the employment of “Tongues”. At times, this confusion comes from the false assumption that what happens in the Protestant and Pentecostal religions also happens in the Catholic Church. Obviously, the deep confusion about the difference between extraordinary and ordinary in St. Paul’s world is current.

Please, if there is discussion about the difference between extraordinary and ordinary in St. Paul’s world, let us all retain charity in polite conversation.

To be continued in the next post.

 

[grannymh]

Continued from previous post.

Please, if discussion continues, let us maintan charity in polite conversation.

Some Catholics (myself included) engage in a bit of sola scriptura when it comes to the complexity of St. Paul’s writing. Usually, I go by what I have learned augmented by my understanding. I need to be patient with myself and others as I recognize different ways people, and myself, interpret St. Paul.

Whilst it is quite true that since the emergence of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, the Popes (and some theologians) have given it their support and approval, this hardly equates with dogmatic magisterial teaching that cannot be dissented from by all the faithful. Thus, dear friend, men are, at least as I understand it, perfectly entitled in good conscience to respectfully disagree with them and still remain in good standing with the Church. Opinions should not be elevated to official binding teaching, a tendency that has become all too common among some contemporary Catholics.

This is true. Paul, as a Saint, is on the same level as subsequent Saints regarding different ways to reach God through prayer.

Here is a handy link to the official Catholic Charismatic Renewal website. One can browse through the index on the left in a leisurely fashion.
nsc-chariscenter.org/

The famous Baltimore Catechism surely states accurately what the Church has always beleived respecting the charismata down through the ages:

"Question 448. Why are these signs not continued everywhere at the present time?

Answer. These signs are not continued everywhere at the present time, because now that the Church is fully established and its divine character and power proved in other ways, such signs are no longer necessary".

My apology. I do not have a Baltimore Catechism so I cannot read the context above and below Question 448. Is there a link to this book? I remember studying this book as a child. In fact, I credit my knowledge of Catholic doctrines to my grade school preparation for Confirmation. Unfortunately, I do not remember all the wording. Exception is the “direction” to know, love, and serve God and be happy with Him forever.

Now, dear friend, as far as I am aware no one ever challenged the truth of this part of the BC or suggested that it was an untenable position that could not be sustained, except until very recent times when the CCR made its appearance on the ecclesiatical stage. This would strongly suggest that the CCR is out of kilter with the long standing tradition of the Church as regards the ceassation of the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Spirit. This is surely why the faithful ought to have this movement on enquiry and examine its claims in the light of the extrinsic tradition of the Church.

In my humble opinion, when one delves into the history of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal within the Catholic Church, I do not find a necessity to challenge Question 448. This comes from the obvious observation that people within the Catholic Church do not refer to the “Catholic Charismatic Continuation.”

The CCR, dear friend, is of alien growth within the Catholic Church and is derivative, emerging as it does from Protestant fundamentalism and the so called ‘Jesus People’ movement of the late 1960’s. As such and given its spurious claims, it ought to be avoided by the Catholic faithful and given a jolly wide-berth.

May I offer the phrase “checking out the Pentecostal experience” in place of “derivative, emerging”? Those familiar with the beginning of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal are well aware of the “seeking” information from other religious peoples. The public concerns of Bishops were front and center. Good thing.

To understand the Catholic Church’s perspective, one needs to study Chapter 14 of the Gospel of John in reference to the sending of the Holy Spirit.

Those familiar with those early years know that both Protestant and Pentecostal teachings were laid on the table along with Catholic teachings. It is here, that the charismatic renewal became truly Catholic within the Catholic Church.

In other words, the difference between Protestant/Pentecostal experiences and the Catholic Charismatic Renewal is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass along with the seven Sacraments of grace throughout one’s entire life.

Undoubtedly many of the rank and file of the CCR display a religious fervour and are frequently orthodox as touching faith and morals and in this I would gladly rejoice. Nevertheless, the fact remains that they are seriously misguided, if not deluded, in their bold claim to be in possession of the extraordianry charismata, which have long since passed away.

Because of the length of my reply and the questions it may elicit, I will end here with a few comments. Readers should return to post 21 for Portrait’s conclusions. If there are comments about this conclusion, I will reply in a separate post. In general, the Catholic Charismatic Renewal understands these concerns and through proper education, it is addressing them.

As for Catholics being misguided about the Catholic Charismatic Renewal – when the usual protocol of an extensive (over many weeks) Life in the Spirit seminar is employed, participants renew their knowledge of basic “Baltimore Catechism” teachings. They learn about their responsibility to be active members in their parish. They also learn about the ordinary, common gift of praying in tongues. And yes, abuse of personal pride can appear with this teaching. However, with the “Renewal” of Catholicism, especially the Sacraments of Baptism, Reconciliation, and the Eucharist, Life in the Spirit participants normally have a sense of balance when it comes to committing one’s life to Jesus, Our Lord (essential in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal) and the many ways of praying to God.

 

[Sirach2]

Portrait, it is not presenting the fullness of Catholic teaching when you revert to an older catechism as the basis for what you propose as truth.

May I refer you to our latest catechism which states:
768 So that she can fulfill her mission, the Holy Spirit "bestows upon [the Church] varied hierarchic and charismatic gifts, and in this way directs her. 177 “Henceforward the Church, endowed with the gifts of her founder and faithfully observing his precepts of charity, humility and self-denial, receives the mission of proclaiming and establishing among all peoples the Kingdom of Christ and of God, and she is on earth the seed and the beginning of that kingdom.”
Notice that #177 refers to the Dogmatic Constitution Lumen Gentium 4 promulgated in Vatican II, and states:
LG 4 The Church, which the Spirit guides in way of all truth and which He unified in communion and in works of ministry, He both equips and directs with hierarchical and charismatic gifts and adorns with His fruits.
This paragraph is worded in the present tense, to indicate the Spirit’s work is ongoing and not something confined to past ages. I hope you take this to heart and profit by it.

 

[Dorothy]

Portrait, it is not presenting the fullness of Catholic teaching when you revert to an older catechism as the basis for what you propose as truth.

May I refer you to our latest catechism which states:
768 So that she can fulfill her mission, the Holy Spirit "bestows upon [the Church] varied hierarchic and charismatic gifts, and in this way directs her. 177 “Henceforward the Church, endowed with the gifts of her founder and faithfully observing his precepts of charity, humility and self-denial, receives the mission of proclaiming and establishing among all peoples the Kingdom of Christ and of God, and she is on earth the seed and the beginning of that kingdom.”
Notice that #177 refers to the Dogmatic Constitution Lumen Gentium 4 promulgated in Vatican II, and states:
LG 4 The Church, which the Spirit guides in way of all truth and which He unified in communion and in works of ministry, He both equips and directs with hierarchical and charismatic gifts and adorns with His fruits.
This paragraph is worded in the present tense, to indicate the Spirit’s work is ongoing and not something confined to past ages. I hope you take this to heart and profit by it.

Great post! Thanks.

 

[Portrait]

Portrait, it is not presenting the fullness of Catholic teaching when you revert to an older catechism as the basis for what you propose as truth.

May I refer you to our latest catechism which states:
768 So that she can fulfill her mission, the Holy Spirit "bestows upon [the Church] varied hierarchic and charismatic gifts, and in this way directs her. 177 “Henceforward the Church, endowed with the gifts of her founder and faithfully observing his precepts of charity, humility and self-denial, receives the mission of proclaiming and establishing among all peoples the Kingdom of Christ and of God, and she is on earth the seed and the beginning of that kingdom.”
Notice that #177 refers to the Dogmatic Constitution Lumen Gentium 4 promulgated in Vatican II, and states:
LG 4 The Church, which the Spirit guides in way of all truth and which He unified in communion and in works of ministry, He both equips and directs with hierarchical and charismatic gifts and adorns with His fruits.
This paragraph is worded in the present tense, to indicate the Spirit’s work is ongoing and not something confined to past ages. I hope you take this to heart and profit by it.

Dear Sirach2,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Thankyou for your response.

Whilst I understand the point that your making, dear friend, your Catechism references say nothing of Catholics seeking those unique extraordinary gifts, such as tongues and prophecy, all of which were the “signs of an apostle” and which confirmed the Apostles very unique and necessarily temporary ministry in the early days of Christianity. The special charismata were largely confered on the early Church for the confirmation of faith and in witness of the divine origin of the Christian religion. Their end being accomplished and Christianity firmly planted in the world, they were gradually withdrawn.

Moreover, as regards the Catholic Charismatic Renewal movement, it is not a doctrine or de fide and therefore, as I am given to understand, the faithful are not required to either embrace it or receive it as an authentic work of God in our times. Church approval or support is not synonymous with official Magisterial teaching to which the faithful are bound to give their submissive assent. The faithful are therefore not obligated to accept the CCR and its erroneous claims if they remain unconvinced, as many Catholics of good standing clearly do, that it is a genuine movement of the Holy Spirit in our times.

Notwithstanding Charismatic attempts to elevate personal endorsements of high-ranking Church officials into official approbation by the Magisterium, no such approbation exists. Whilst is true that Popes Paul VI and JPII received Charismatics many times and spoke of them in their addresses on many occasions, the fact remains that no official pronoucement respecting the CCR has been promulgated, dear friend. As with liberal Catholics, some Charismatically inclined Catholics have a tendency to ascribe creeping infallibility to unofficial papal pronouncements and support in their favour.

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

 

[Sirach2]

Portrait:

Your [Not mine, the Church’s]

Catechism references say nothing of Catholics seeking those unique extraordinary gifts, such as tongues and prophecy, all of which were the “signs of an apostle” and which confirmed the Apostles very unique and necessarily temporary ministry in the early days of Christianity.

I’m sorry to see this type of response from you, for it appears that you are not open to wisdom, but prefer to hold onto your own misunderstanding. I’m sadly aware that it would not be helpful to counter your errors, for there is superfluous information already presented in this thread and throughout the Church, easily accessed on the internet. You apparently reject it.

Certainly, the CCC does not spell out that which I have bolded in your quote. It is not the scope or intent in disseminating Catholic beliefs to sidetrack into lengthly explanations as you seem to desire. What they have said, referencing Vatican II, is sufficient.

Are you forgetting St. Paul’s encouragement to seek prophecy as the best of charisms? Not in the sense of foretelling future events, but in pure holy exhortation that is its true definition as Paul used it. The OP has not “sought” tongues, and I rather doubt many others do either, in all humility. That’s why it is called a “gift.”

I agree that there is no obligation for anyone to accept the CCR, as it may not be their calling, just as it is true that we do not have to accept any private revelations or believe reports of apparitions.

That being said, to each his own, but what disturbs me very much is your characterizations that negate an authentic movement of God’s Spirit. Maybe you did not see the mention earlier in this thread that the Pontifical Preacher at the Vatican was chosen for his wonderful spirituality? He is very much a charismatic. I may begin a thread with his excerpts from one of the most beautiful homilies on love that I can remember. The Spirit’s fruit is very evident in his life!

 

[Sirach2]

Portrait,

A search of your user name using the keyword “charismatic” brought forth 44 posts. I see clearly that it is useless to discuss this with you, since you have a very deep seated antipathy and use every opportunity to negate this movement and defend your position.

I leave you to your ramblings, for clearly your mind is closed shut.

 

[grannymh]

Moreover, as regards the Catholic Charismatic Renewal movement, it is not a doctrine or de fide and therefore, as I am given to understand, the faithful are not required to either embrace it or receive it as an authentic work of God in our times.
God bless.

The issue for ordinary folk is not necessarily that a “program” e.g. the Catholic Charismatic Renewal be affirmed by doctrine or de fide. The basic issue is that the “program” be recognized as being in keeping with Catholic doctrines.

Discerning that a “program” such as the Catholic Charismatic Renewal is in keeping with Catholicism does not imply that one has to accept it. What is implied is that one may choose to accept it.
Would that be a fair, brief summary of your position?

If you would kindly go back to my post 27, the section where I refer to the public concerns of the Bishops in the early years of the Renewal, you will find that those in charge of protecting the Faith, did evaluate the Catholic Charismatic Renewal.

Here is a representation of the evaluation.
nsc-chariscenter.org/AboutCCR/

Please scroll down to –

As early as 1969, only two years after the Renewal started, the U.S. Bishops investigated the fledgling movement and the Committee on Doctrine wrote that “theologically the movement has legitimate reasons of existence. It has a strong biblical basis. It would be difficult to inhibit the working of the Spirit which manifested itself so abundantly in the early Church.”

Subsequent statements in 1975, 1984 and 1997 have been equally affirming.

The 1984 Statement, A Pastoral Statement on the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, concluded with these words:
We wish those in the charismatic renewal to know that we make our own the view of Yves Congar: “The charismatic renewal is a grace for the Church.” We assure those in the charismatic renewal of the support they enjoy from the bishops of the United States, and we encourage them in their efforts to renew the life of the Church. (39)
The Statement also says:
Echoing the words of Pope John Paul II, we commend the charismatic renewal to the priests of the United States: “The priest, for his part, cannot exercise his service on behalf of the renewal unless and until he adopts a welcoming attitude toward it, based on the desire he shares with every Christian by baptism to grow in the gifts of the Holy Spirit” (May 7, 1981). The priest’s responsibility to give pastoral guidance remains, even though an individual priest may not be a participant in the renewal. (37)
In 1997 “on the occasion of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal’s thirtieth anniversary” we, the U.S. Bishops’ Ad Hoc Committee on the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, want to affirm again all those Catholics involved in this movement of the Holy Spirit in our day. We, likewise, ‘encourage them in their efforts to renew the life of the Church.’” (Grace for the New Springtime). You may read the full text in English or Spanish.

The Statement concludes, “Thus, we can say again, with great thanksgiving and enthusiasm, that in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal and in the grace of baptism in the Holy Spirit we see God’s outpouring of a new Pentecost.”

At the core of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal is the “grace of Pentecost” also known as baptism in the Holy Spirit.

In a key statement issued in 1991 addressed “to the bishops and pastoral leaders of the Catholic church in the United States,” entitled Fanning the Flame: What Does Baptism in the Holy Spirit Have to Do with Christian Initiation?
“baptism in the Holy Spirit” refers to both Christian initiation and to its reawakening in Christian experience. “We believe that this gift of the baptism in the Holy Spirit belongs to the Christian inheritance of all those sacramentally initiated into the church” (p. 10).

While not a theological statement the U.S. Bishops Ad Hoc Committee defines baptism in this way:
As experienced in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal baptism in the Holy Spirit makes Jesus Christ known and loved as Lord and Savior, establishes or reestablishes an immediacy of relationship with all those persons on the Trinity, and through inner transformation affects the whole of the Christian’s life. There is new life and a new conscious awareness of God’s power and presence. It is a grace experience which touches every dimension of the Church’s life: worship, preaching, teaching, ministry, evangelism, prayer and spirituality, service and community. Because of this, it is our conviction that baptism in the Holy Spirit, understood as the reawakening in Christian experience of the presence and action of the Holy Spirit given in Christian initiation, and manifested in a broad range of charisms, including those closely associated with the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, is part of the normal Christian life.

Important clarifications.

1. Christian initiation refers directly to the reception of the three Sacraments Baptism, Confirmation, and Eucharist.
2. “Baptism of the Holy Spirit” is totally separate from the Catholic Sacrament of Baptism.

I am interested in your opinions about the above. May we have a discussion?

I do recognize that you are concerned about abuses of pride. Would it be all right to discuss the Catholic Charismatic Renewal first? Abuses will never go away – we simply need to deal with them.

Perhaps, you would share your understanding of “Tongues” since this is the question of the OP.

 

[grannymh]

The following book is a thorough study of “Baptism in the Holy Spirit” and the charisms in the early Church. It includes; Tertullian in his Catholic years, Hilary of Poitiers, Basil, Gregory Nazianzus, Cyril of Jerusalem, John Chrysostom, Philoxenus, John of Apamea, Theodoret of Cyrrhus, Severus of Antioch, and Joseph Hzaazya. They represent Latin, Greek, and Syrian cultures, almost the whole of the Mediterranean seaboard.

Christian Initiation and Baptism in the Holy Spirit
Evidence from the First Eight Centuries
ISBN 0-8146-5009-0
by Kilian McDonnell, O.S.B. and George Montague, S.M.

Kilian McDonnell, O.S.B. and George Montague, S.M. are also editors of a document based on “The Heart of the Church Consultation” held May 6 -11, 1990 in Techny, Illinois.
This document is “Fanning the Flame, What Does Baptism in the Holy Spirit Have to Do with Christian Initiation?” ISBN 0-8146-5013-9

 

[Portrait]

I’m sorry to see this type of response from you, for it appears that you are not open to wisdom, but prefer to hold onto your own misunderstanding. I’m sadly aware that it would not be helpful to counter your errors, for there is superfluous information already presented in this thread and throughout the Church, easily accessed on the internet. You apparently reject it.

Certainly, the CCC does not spell out that which I have bolded in your quote. It is not the scope or intent in disseminating Catholic beliefs to sidetrack into lengthly explanations as you seem to desire. What they have said, referencing Vatican II, is sufficient.

Are you forgetting St. Paul’s encouragement to seek prophecy as the best of charisms? Not in the sense of foretelling future events, but in pure holy exhortation that is its true definition as Paul used it. The OP has not “sought” tongues, and I rather doubt many others do either, in all humility. That’s why it is called a “gift.”

I agree that there is no obligation for anyone to accept the CCR, as it may not be their calling, just as it is true that we do not have to accept any private revelations or believe reports of apparitions.

That being said, to each his own, but what disturbs me very much is your characterizations that negate an authentic movement of God’s Spirit. Maybe you did not see the mention earlier in this thread that the Pontifical Preacher at the Vatican was chosen for his wonderful spirituality? He is very much a charismatic. I may begin a thread with his excerpts from one of the most beautiful homilies on love that I can remember. The Spirit’s fruit is very evident in his life!

Dear Sirach2,

Hello again and thankyou for your response.

First, the only reason, dear friend, why the CCR has gained in popularity is because our lot is cast in times of unprecedented spiritual declension and apathy. A superficially exciting movement which has grown numerically and whose adherents are fervent in religion, is clearly not the norm today when nominalism is so prevalent. Thus we should not be surprised that the CCR has been warmly received and why many rush to defend it and sing its praises. However, it is surely fallacious to equate the numerical strength of a new movement and the enthusiasm of its devotees with authentic Catholic orthodoxy, as the example of Arianism clearly evinces. Obviously, when things are at a jolly low ebb in the life of the Church, anything that displays some seeming signs of life and fervour will be eagerly welcomed. Men will argue that if such a movement can awaken the ‘lifeless’ and ‘formalistic’ Church out of its spiritual torpor, then let us embrace it for it must be from God. To many it will indeed seen like a return to the spiritual fervour of the primitive Church and ‘saints alive’, or men living out the Gospel in their lives and moving in the gifts.

However, dear friend, this movement has failed to foster a more ardent desire for sanctity and separation from the godless world and many Catholics continue to adopt a hand in hand with the world type of religious practice. The acid test of any movement is: does it encourage men in the true pursuit of holiness and a pious other-worldliness? Moreover, what is problematic for the CCR is that many traditional groupings within Catholicism are starting to experience numerical growth, yet these firmly reject the claims of the CCR as they do not believe that it is something indispensable to the traditional movement. Furthermore, dear friend, they would strenuously deny that their parishes are ‘dead’ and that all they have is a barren lifeless orthodoxy.

Unfortunately, dear friend, there is no dearth of Charismatic adherents/supporters at any level of the hierarchy of the clergy, but this is actually not as compelling as some would have us believe. That men supposedly well-tutored in the sacred sciences should be taken in by sensational and utterly groundless beliefs and practices is surely a monumental reproach to this age. Now I do not stop to deny that the hearts of many are in the right place and, as I said in the preceding paragraph, there is probably a widely held feeling that anything that might just breathe life into the Church and revive its fortunes must necessarily be a good and positive thing.

Notwithstanding, the enthusiasm for this movement among the hierarchy of the Church, which I do not deny, it is fundamentally un-Catholic and irreconcilable with 2000 years of Catholic teaching. The tacit assumption is that the Church lost an essential part of its faith, whilst the Holy Spirit maintained that aspect within Protestantism. Thus Protestants were restoring to Holy Mother Church her lost patrimony! Now this, dear friend, is an audacious and utterly false position which flatly contradicts two dogmas of the faith, namely, extra ecclesiam nulla salus (outside the Church no salvation), and the indefectability of the Church.

Finally, to hold that the CCR is a genuine movement of the Holy Spirit requires the faithful to believe that until its emergence in 1967, the Church was impoverished and incomplete since the Gifts had not been fully restored, which is preposterous. This is tantamount to saying that the multitudes of earnest and holy Catholics, including the Saints, were somehow deficient because they did not experience their faith in all its true fulness. However, the vast majority would have found this risible and would have been in total agreement with Baltimore Catechism in believing that the extraordinary gifts were no longer the property of the Church. Were all of these mistaken, dear friend?

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

 

[grannymh]

Dear Sirach2,

Hello again and thankyou for your response.

First, the only reason, dear friend, why the CCR has gained in popularity is because our lot is cast in times of unprecedented spiritual declension and apathy. A superficially exciting movement which has grown numerically and whose adherents are fervent in religion, is clearly not the norm today when nominalism is so prevalent. Thus we should not be surprised that the CCR has been warmly received and why many rush to defend it and sing its praises. However, it is surely fallacious to equate the numerical strength of a new movement and the enthusiasm of its devotees with authentic Catholic orthodoxy, as the example of Arianism clearly evinces. Obviously, when things are at a jolly low ebb in the life of the Church, anything that displays some seeming signs of life and fervour will be eagerly welcomed. Men will argue that if such a movement can awaken the ‘lifeless’ and ‘formalistic’ Church out of its spiritual torpor, then let us embrace it for it must be from God. To many it will indeed seen like a return to the spiritual fervour of the primitive Church and ‘saints alive’, or men living out the Gospel in their lives and moving in the gifts.

However, dear friend, this movement has failed to foster a more ardent desire for sanctity and separation from the godless world and many Catholics continue to adopt a hand in hand with the world type of religious practice. The acid test of any movement is: does it encourage men in the true pursuit of holiness and a pious other-worldliness? Moreover, what is problematic for the CCR is that many traditional groupings within Catholicism are starting to experience numerical growth, yet these firmly reject the claims of the CCR as they do not believe that it is something indispensable to the traditional movement. Furthermore, dear friend, they would strenuously deny that their parishes are ‘dead’ and that all they have is a barren lifeless orthodoxy.

Unfortunately, dear friend, there is no dearth of Charismatic adherents/supporters at any level of the hierarchy of the clergy, but this is actually not as compelling as some would have us believe. That men supposedly well-tutored in the sacred sciences should be taken in by sensational and utterly groundless beliefs and practices is surely a monumental reproach to this age. Now I do not stop to deny that the hearts of many are in the right place and, as I said in the preceding paragraph, there is probably a widely held feeling that anything that might just breathe life into the Church and revive its fortunes must necessarily be a good and positive thing.

Notwithstanding, the enthusiasm for this movement among the hierarchy of the Church, which I do not deny, it is fundamentally un-Catholic and irreconcilable with 2000 years of Catholic teaching. The tacit assumption is that the Church lost an essential part of its faith, whilst the Holy Spirit maintained that aspect within Protestantism. Thus Protestants were restoring to Holy Mother Church her lost patrimony! Now this, dear friend, is an audacious and utterly false position which flatly contradicts two dogmas of the faith, namely, extra ecclesiam nulla salus (outside the Church no salvation), and the indefectability of the Church.

Finally, to hold that the CCR is a genuine movement of the Holy Spirit requires the faithful to believe that until its emergence in 1967, the Church was impoverished and incomplete since the Gifts had not been fully restored, which is preposterous. This is tantamount to saying that the multitudes of earnest and holy Catholics, including the Saints, were somehow deficient because they did not experience their faith in all its true fulness. However, the vast majority would have found this risible and would have been in total agreement with Baltimore Catechism in believing that the extraordinary gifts were no longer the property of the Church. Were all of these mistaken, dear friend?

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

Citations, please.

In the meantime, would you kindly share the most reasonable definition of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal and how “tongues” per OP fits in.

By the way, it is possible that the Catholic Church is getting ready for its biggest role yet in bringing humankind to God. I say this because as I try to understand your deepest meanings, I find myself thinking that for ordinary folk, the Catholic Charismatic Renewal is the best thing since sliced bread.

Just imagine the joy in one’s heart in being able to say Jesus is my Lord and Savior in the midst of our noisy secularism. Imagine the peace that comes with truly committing our very lives to God. Does this mean that everyone has to be a quote charismatic unquote? Of course not. It does mean that everyone has to renew their own spiritual life according to any of the marvelous Saints and of course Jesus Himself.

Imagine the joy of attending the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass during the week when able. Imagine the love of Mary, our Blessed Mother, as we pray her Rosary. This is the fruit of Renewal. It is the second Pentecost. And yes, there will be people gifted with the gifts of the first Pentecost. But what people are not realizing is that the gift of praying in Tongues is available to ordinary folk who freely choose to learn about that gift.

What is necessary is praying in whatever way is comfortable for the individual.

To understand how all the various forms of spirituality and good works fit together, one has to learn about the Mystical Body of Christ.

 

[Aussiegal]

Citations, please.

In the meantime, would you kindly share the most reasonable definition of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal and how “tongues” per OP fits in.

By the way, it is possible that the Catholic Church is getting ready for its biggest role yet in bringing humankind to God. I say this because as I try to understand your deepest meanings, I find myself thinking that for ordinary folk, the Catholic Charismatic Renewal is the best thing since sliced bread.

Just imagine the joy in one’s heart in being able to say Jesus is my Lord and Savior in the midst of our noisy secularism. Imagine the peace that comes with truly committing our very lives to God. Does this mean that everyone has to be a quote charismatic unquote? Of course not. It does mean that everyone has to renew their own spiritual life according to any of the marvelous Saints and of course Jesus Himself.

Imagine the joy of attending the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass during the week when able. Imagine the love of Mary, our Blessed Mother, as we pray her Rosary. This is the fruit of Renewal. It is the second Pentecost. And yes, there will be people gifted with the gifts of the first Pentecost. But what people are not realizing is that the gift of praying in Tongues is available to ordinary folk who freely choose to learn about that gift.

What is necessary is praying in whatever way is comfortable for the individual.

To understand how all the various forms of spirituality and good works fit together, one has to learn about the Mystical Body of Christ.

:thumbsup:Well said grannymh!

 

[IanGE]

Citations, please.

In the meantime, would you kindly share the most reasonable definition of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal and how “tongues” per OP fits in.

By the way, it is possible that the Catholic Church is getting ready for its biggest role yet in bringing humankind to God. I say this because as I try to understand your deepest meanings, I find myself thinking that for ordinary folk, the Catholic Charismatic Renewal is the best thing since sliced bread.

Just imagine the joy in one’s heart in being able to say Jesus is my Lord and Savior in the midst of our noisy secularism. Imagine the peace that comes with truly committing our very lives to God. Does this mean that everyone has to be a quote charismatic unquote? Of course not. It does mean that everyone has to renew their own spiritual life according to any of the marvelous Saints and of course Jesus Himself.

Imagine the joy of attending the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass during the week when able. Imagine the love of Mary, our Blessed Mother, as we pray her Rosary. This is the fruit of Renewal. It is the second Pentecost. And yes, there will be people gifted with the gifts of the first Pentecost. But what people are not realizing is that the gift of praying in Tongues is available to ordinary folk who freely choose to learn about that gift.

What is necessary is praying in whatever way is comfortable for the individual.

To understand how all the various forms of spirituality and good works fit together, one has to learn about the Mystical Body of Christ.

Dear, dear Grannymh,
My Spirit sings, my heart weeps with joy at the love radiated from your words. The fruit of the Spirit is (Gal. 5:22) “love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control”. I think I missed out on gentleness! The ex-RAF Sergeant of nigh on 50 years still barks “yew 'orrible lickle man: get your’air cut”. And my love after 31 Born Again years is still “tough love”. Mea Culpa!
You missed mentioning how the indwelling Spirit soars after communion: I walk back to my pew on cloud nine: “the blood of my Jesus is IN ME!” Someone said the Holy Spirit was sent to help the church individually and collectively on earth. So when Jesus comes at communion, there’s a jubilant reunion WITHIN US: no wonder we celebrate joyously!

 

[ltwin]

Pentacostals believe that they are not truly “saved” & able to go to heaven unless they are “baptized by the Holy Ghost as evidenced by speaking in tongues.” Talk to your priest before you delve any deeper into this. My experience is that God isn’t the only one that can have a person speak in tongues!!

Actually this is a common misunderstanding. While there are some Oneness Pentecostal groups that do teach this, the majority of Pentecostals believe that conversion (or “being born again” or “salvation”) is completely separate from the baptism in the Holy Spirit. If someone is born again, Pentecostals believe that that person will make it to heaven by the grace of God and their continuing in the faith. Speaking in tongues has nothing to do with getting to heaven for most Pentecostals. It is simply a gift of the Spirit and an evidence of the baptism in the Spirit (which again is not the same thing as being born again).

In fact, a 2006 Pew Forum study looked at Pentecostals in over 10 countries and found that 49 percent of Pentecostals in the United States, 50 percent in Brazil, 41 percent in South Africa, and 54 percent in India said they “never” speak or pray in tongues. (The Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life (2006). Spirit and Power: A 10-Country Survey of Pentecostals. Pages 16-17.)