Catholic Traditions

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I’ll try to help with these ones. A mass is a re-presentation of calvary, meaning “to make present again” and opposed to our generally modern view of the word represent. It is not a proxy, but rather a reality. Very basically, the first half is nearly completely scriptural readings, psalms and other praises and acknowledgement of our sins, asking for God’s mercy on us. The second half is the liturgy of the Eucharist (Lord’s supper).

I’m sure you are familiar with the passover story from Exodus. Every year, the Jews were to re-live this miraculous delivery from slavery into the promised land. This was not viewed as a nostalgic memory but rather a reality of God’s unending covenant with His people. After all, this passover was not a one time deal only for those particular people and then God’s covenant ends; but rather a covenant promise from the Father to His children. Later generations, would celebrate the passover in a more defined ritual; for instance, one aspect is to sing the Hallel psalms. Did they sing Hallel psalms at the first passover?? No, they hadn’t been written yet.

This foreshadow led to Jesus’ exodus for the yoke of slavery to the promised land in a perfected way. When we follow His command to “do this in memory of me”, we don’t nostalgically remember a past event either, but rather, God’s grace works through the instrument of the priest to effect the reality of this paschal sacrifice and the promise to be with us til the consummation of time. Over time, ritual was established to maintain a consistent teaching in the Church throughout the entire world.

As to your question about the passover, the old testament (covenant) is a shadow to the new testament (covenant) perfected in Jesus Christ.

If anyone feels I’ve written in error, feel free to amend. Hope it helps.
thanks much for the info on the mass. I am just not sure what your saying on Passover/nt. Jesus celebrated the Passover at the last supper. So I was just wondering when or how it turned into the mass?.

thanks.
the dates are incorrect. I stopped after the very first date re sign of cross which started before 300.
could you help me and give a official catholic document, on when these were added officially by the church?. That is what i am really looking for.
 
thanks much for the info on the mass. I am just not sure what your saying on Passover/nt. Jesus celebrated the Passover at the last supper. So I was just wondering when or how it turned into the mass?.

thanks.
When Jesus consecrated the bread and wine at the Last Supper, it became the first mass.
 
When Jesus consecrated the bread and wine at the Last Supper, it became the first mass.
ok so at the last supper thanks.

but than what changed or how from the passover? why is not the mass the Passover celebration based on jesus fulfilling the ot lamb?
 
thanks much for the info on the mass. I am just not sure what your saying on Passover/nt. Jesus celebrated the Passover at the last supper. So I was just wondering when or how it turned into the mass?.
The usage of the word “missa” or mass has taken on a broader sense. Originally it referred properly to the Eucharist itself (what you may call the last supper). This term broadened to refer to the entire celebration later. It is used to apply to both “The Liturgy of the Word” and “Liturgy of the Eucharist”.

Given the nature of the thread, I’ll also offer: 1. no, I don’t have a document 2: no, I don’t have an exact date (certainly sometime before the 6th century). I’m sure it happened over time as is so often the case. As far as trying to identify a Jewish connection, consider mass (loosely) as synagogue + temple sacrifice. Some documents that may interest you are First Apologia by Justin Martyr AD 155 or perhaps *Apostolic Traditions ** by Hippolytus AD215.

It would be great if more documents had survived from the time before the Edict of Milan was issued in AD312 but they didn’t. The martyrs were not only killed but their literature was burn too. They were considered to be angering the pagan gods; this is especially true for clergy, who were able to read and had documents (scriptures, etc.)

As far as the passover goes, the disciples as adult Jews would have been very familiar with the ritual of the passover meal. So things that Jesus altered would have stood out. Like identifying the bread as His own Body, also identifying the 3rd cup (cup of blessing) and the cup of His blood, the blood of the new and everlasting covenant. And likewise, His refusal to partake of the 4th cup at table (cup of consummation). These are things that the 12 would have taken notice of. This new covenant in His blood was to be the perfection of the lamb’s blood shed in the old covenant.*
 
I don’t mean to be picky here TimothyH, but wasn’t it Paul who was present when Eutichus fell from the third story window?
Long-speaking preachers should take note of that verse.🙂

Protector.
Yes, Paul. Sorry.

Then he kept speaking until dawn. 🙂

-Tim-
 
My thoughts on a few things:

Worship can mean many things, the most common being worship of God; however, it is also translated as honoring or venerating. We WORSHIP God only; we honor and venerate other Holy people and items.

**worship   **
wor·ship [wur-ship]
noun
1.
reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred.
2.
formal or ceremonious rendering of such honor and homage: They attended worship this morning.
3.
adoring reverence or regard: excessive worship of business success.
4.
the object of adoring reverence or regard.
5.
( initial capital letter ) British . a title of honor used in addressing or mentioning certain magistrates and others of high rank or station (usually preceded by Your, His, or Her ).

verb (used with object)
6.
to render religious reverence and homage to.
7.
to feel an adoring reverence or regard for (any person or thing).
verb (used without object)
8.
to render religious reverence and homage, as to a deity.
9.
to attend services of divine worship.
10.
to feel an adoring reverence or regard.
The worship of Mary, the mother of Jesus, and the use of the term, “Mother of God”, as applied to her, originated in the Council of Ephesus
Hmmm, what do you suppose we should call, the mother of Jesus Christ, who is God?
Priests began to dress differently from the laity
Pastors in many (most?) denominations dress differently from the laity.
The Bible teaches that we pray to God alone. In the primitive church never were prayers directed to Mary, or to dead saints. This practice began in the Roman Church.
We do WORSHIP God alone. We HONOR and ask for the prayers of Mary and the Saints.
Worship of the cross, images and relics was authorized
Again, veneration or honoring is not the same as worship, and Catholics worship God only.
The sale of Indulgences, commonly regarded as a purchase of forgiveness and a permit to indulge in sin.
The sale of indulgences was an abuse, and was abused by people who were Catholic. However, an indulgence does NOT purchase forgiveness, nor is it a permit to sin!
In the year 1931 the same pope Pius XI, reaffirmed the doctrine that Mary is “the Mother of God”
Again, exactly how would you even argue that Mary is not the mother of God, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ?

There is so much misinformation, twisted words and outright lies against the Catholic Church, even I can refute some of them easily. I could easily spend hours and hours researching and find fact after fact, but the true fact remains that if one WANTS to believe otherwise, nothing I can share with you will dissuade you from your own heresy.

God bless the Catholic Church.
 
I am a protestant and I am not here to argue just gain facts. I wanted to know if this article is correct in it dates only. I dont care about its anti catholic slant or what it says against the catholic traditions. I just wanted to know if the dates are correct. Thanks.

jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/catholic_heresies-a_list.htm
Lol! Did anyone else break out laughing when they saw the word ‘Heresy’ with 1500 charges laid against the Church by some yahoo?

“I say, I say now, that there is HRESEEE!”
 
Just wondering if anyone could provide me with official church documents on when these traditions were added to the church.

thanks.
 
thanks much for the info on the mass. I am just not sure what your saying on Passover/nt. Jesus celebrated the Passover at the last supper. So I was just wondering when or how it turned into the mass?.

thanks.

could you help me and give a official catholic document, on when these were added officially by the church?. That is what i am really looking for.
The sign of the cross has been practiced by Christians at least since the second century. Tertullian 160-225 described it as common practice among Christians who did so throughout the day.

He writes

“in all our travels and movements, in all our shoes, at the bath, at the table, in lighting our candles, in lying down, in sitting down, whatever employment occupies us, we mark our foreheads with the sign of the cross”

De corona, no. 30

He was talking about this as if it were common practice. This could have developed quite possibly as early as the early or mid second century.

When Catholics make the sign of the cross they invoke God’s presence, the Holy Trinity as a source of protection from temptation and evil, blessing and assistance. The early Christians understood it to have powerful consequences. Its basically a powerful prayer.

If it hasn’t been already recommended to you a nice introduction to the mass that explains its Biblical foundation (which was very important to me as a former Evangelical) is

“A BIBLICAL WALK THROUGH THE MASS
UNDERSTANDING WHAT WE SAY AND DO IN THE LITURGY”

by Edward Sri

found here

amazon.com/Biblical-Walk-Through-Mass-Book/dp/1935940007
 
Just wondering if anyone could provide me with official church documents on when these traditions were added to the church.

thanks.
One more thing to ponder, the ultimate church documents are the NT documents themselves that were collected, debated over, translated and copied and revered as God’s inspired word. The NT canon is a product of the Catholic or Great Church. Not to change the subject but remember even thought the NT writings originated in the first century Church the Canon of Scripture did not materialize for hundreds of years. The same can be said about our most foundational doctrines of the Trinity and Incarnation. Scripture, Tradition and the Church are clearly the means of transmission. Officially the “documents” on the Trinity and Incarnation were added to the Church in the fourth and fifth centuries. Does that concern you? Of course not because Scripture lays their foundation but it was the Church and her Tradition of interpretation and fierce debates within itself that provided the means to determine these foundations of Christianity. If Scripture was self evident as far as interpretation goes as some like to claim then how does one explain the fact that for a while the Church was dominated by Arian theology. And this on something as central as the deity of Christ!!
I apologize for going off topic but at times when people discuss things being “added to the church” they fail to realize that what we take for granted today took the early Church hundreds of years to develop due to new threats (both internal and external) and circumstances by which the Church had to adapt and respond to.

If you are interested in another good introductory i highly recommend A DVD series put out by The Great Courses
The History of Christian Theology
by Phillip Cary (An Anglican i believe)

and A CD SERIES

THE HISTORY OF THE MASS from Now you Know media

By Fr. JOHN F. BALDOVIN, S.J., PH.D.

He covers the mass from the very beginning up to the 20 century.
 
Just wondering if anyone could provide me with official church documents on when these traditions were added to the church.

thanks.
The Vatican is a great place to start.

You can check this places for what you are looking for (Lots of reading):

Sources of Catholic Dogma (Denzinger)

Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (Ott)


Catechism of the Catholic Church (With a great search string option)

The CCC has reference numbers all over, reading these references will greatly expand and explain the concepts better.

I like the following websites to read Early Church Fathers and EncyclicalsCouncils and Papal .

Catholic Encyclopedia
.

This forum belongs to a main website: Catholic Answers, and it has a great search engine, which can help you follow on references.

I know it’s a lot, but hey - that’s what happens with a 2,000 years old Church :D.
 
regarding my op and dates.

I think the article was referring to when the catholic church officially added these traditions,not when some first happened. Is the article correct in when Rome officially accepted the traditions? if not could someone provide a catholic source on when they were added?.

thanks.
That list forgot a few. Here are some more:
Electric lights for illumination: late 1800s
Using chlorinated water: early 1920s
Using fluoridated water: 1950s
Polishing floors with wax: early 20th century
Using electronic amplification for homilies: 1950s
Using wireless microphones: 1970s

All of these “inventions” were added to the mass of the Apostles.

😃

Oh, and no, I can’t cite the official church documents that allow for these things.
:rolleyes:
 
That list forgot a few. Here are some more:
Electric lights for illumination: late 1800s
Using chlorinated water: early 1920s
Using fluoridated water: 1950s
Polishing floors with wax: early 20th century
Using electronic amplification for homilies: 1950s
Using wireless microphones: 1970s

All of these “inventions” were added to the mass of the Apostles.

😃

Oh, and no, I can’t cite the official church documents that allow for these things.
:rolleyes:
I’m not able to open teh link in the OP. Did it also list dates for when altar calls, church choirs, and the sinner’s prayer were added as tradition? 😉

In seriousness, I really can’t open the link (security settings on work computer). Church Militant posted a link to his blog regarding the Boettner list, and I have taken that work and broken it up into 6 parts, mostly sorted into like-categories. I added a few comments amongst Mr. Ariss’ research in some spots that may or may not be helpful. You can view those HERE.
 
mass question

what qualifies a mass? is it any time believers gather and break bread remembering jesus Crucifixion?.

Is it the Passover super? has it changed from jesus time and if so why how?.

thanks.
The Mass is the perfection and fulfillment of the Passover. That is why Jesus is the Paschal Lamb and Sacrifice. At the Last Supper, He changed the Passover into the Mass. You can’t fully understand the Last Supper unless you understand the connection to the Passover.

If you really want to understand more fully, I would invest an hour of your time and listen to this talk by Dr. Scott Hahn called The Fourth Cup.

youtube.com/watch?v=GzaiwqsDAm8
 
As to your question about if it has changed. It has changed in some very minor ways, but the structure, and basics have remained completely unchanged sine the Apostles. Take this example from St. Justin Martyr which was written in AD 155 or so. You will note the following order which follows the Mass today.
  1. The collect, or bringing everyone together.
  2. Opening prayers / Act of Contrition
  3. Sign of Peace
  4. Presentation of Gifts
  5. Eucharist Prayers
  6. the Great Amen
  7. Communion
  8. Taking Eucharist to the sick and homebound
  9. Readings from OT and NT
  10. Homily
*Chapter 65. Administration of the sacraments

But we, after we have thus washed him who has been convinced and has assented to our teaching, bring him to the place where those who are called brethren are 1. assembled, in order that we may 2. offer hearty prayers in common for ourselves and for the baptized [illuminated] person, and for all others in every place, that we may be counted worthy, now that we have learned the truth, by our works also to be found good citizens and keepers of the commandments, so that we may be saved with an everlasting salvation. Having ended the prayers, 3. we salute one another with a kiss. There is then 4. brought to the president of the brethren bread and a cup of wine mixed with water; and he taking them, 5. gives praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and offers thanks at considerable length for our being counted worthy to receive these things at His hands. And when he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, 6. all the people present express their assent by saying Amen. This word Amen answers in the Hebrew language to γένοιτο [so be it]. And when the president has given thanks, and all the people have expressed their assent, those who are called by us deacons give to each of those present to **7. partake of the bread and wine mixed with water **over which the thanksgiving was pronounced, and 8. to those who are absent they carry away a portion.

Chapter 66. Of the Eucharist

And this food is called among us Εὐχαριστία [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, “This do in remembrance of Me, Luke 22:19 this is My body;” and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, “This is My blood;” and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.

Chapter 67. Weekly worship of the Christians

And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, 9. and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the 10. president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.*
 
Hmmm, what do you suppose we should call, the mother of Jesus Christ, who is God?
Well Scripture calls Mary the Mother of God, when Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit, proclaims her status.

Luke 1:39 During those days Mary set out and traveled to the hill country in haste to a town of Judah, 40 where she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. 41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit, 42 cried out in a loud voice and said, “Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. 43 And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. 45 Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled.
 
One more thing to ponder, the ultimate church documents are the NT documents themselves that were collected, debated over, translated and copied and revered as God’s inspired word. The NT canon is a product of the Catholic or Great Church. Not to change the subject but remember even thought the NT writings originated in the first century Church the Canon of Scripture did not materialize for hundreds of years. The same can be said about our most foundational doctrines of the Trinity and Incarnation. Scripture, Tradition and the Church are clearly the means of transmission. Officially the “documents” on the Trinity and Incarnation were added to the Church in the fourth and fifth centuries. Does that concern you? Of course not because Scripture lays their foundation but it was the Church and her Tradition of interpretation and fierce debates within itself that provided the means to determine these foundations of Christianity. If Scripture was self evident as far as interpretation goes as some like to claim then how does one explain the fact that for a while the Church was dominated by Arian theology. And this on something as central as the deity of Christ!!
I apologize for going off topic but at times when people discuss things being “added to the church” they fail to realize that what we take for granted today took the early Church hundreds of years to develop due to new threats (both internal and external) and circumstances by which the Church had to adapt and respond to.

If you are interested in another good introductory i highly recommend A DVD series put out by The Great Courses
The History of Christian Theology
by Phillip Cary (An Anglican i believe)

and A CD SERIES

THE HISTORY OF THE MASS from Now you Know media

By Fr. JOHN F. BALDOVIN, S.J., PH.D.

He covers the mass from the very beginning up to the 20 century.
great point thanks.
The Vatican is a great place to start.

You can check this places for what you are looking for (Lots of reading):

Sources of Catholic Dogma (Denzinger)

Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (Ott)


Catechism of the Catholic Church (With a great search string option)

The CCC has reference numbers all over, reading these references will greatly expand and explain the concepts better.

I like the following websites to read Early Church Fathers and Councils and Papal Encyclicals.

Catholic Encyclopedia
.

This forum belongs to a main website: Catholic Answers, and it has a great search engine, which can help you follow on references.

I know it’s a lot, but hey - that’s what happens with a 2,000 years old Church :D.
thanks much for references.
The Mass is the perfection and fulfillment of the Passover. That is why Jesus is the Paschal Lamb and Sacrifice. At the Last Supper, He changed the Passover into the Mass. You can’t fully understand the Last Supper unless you understand the connection to the Passover.

If you really want to understand more fully, I would invest an hour of your time and listen to this talk by Dr. Scott Hahn called The Fourth Cup.

youtube.com/watch?v=GzaiwqsDAm8
That is kinda my point, i fully understand and celebrate passover with the nt understanding, i just wonder how it changed into the mass,something very different, would this video help?.
Well Scripture calls Mary the Mother of God, when Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit, proclaims her status.

Luke 1:39 During those days Mary set out and traveled to the hill country in haste to a town of Judah, 40 where she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. 41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit, 42 cried out in a loud voice and said, “Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. 43 And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. 45 Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled.
good point,thanks.
 
That is kinda my point, i fully understand and celebrate passover with the nt understanding, i just wonder how it changed into the mass,something very different, would this video help?.
Yes, the video is a GREAT reflection and teaching on this topic. Well worth your time. I highly encourage.
 
Yes, definitely watch the video. It will answer all of your questions. Everything in the Old Testament points to Jesus becoming our Passover Lamb. What was required in the OT? They absolutely had to eat the Passover lamb, exactly as prescribed or what? Their son would die. Christ himself becomes the Passover Lamb! Read 1 Corinthians 5:7-8! In what way can we do as Paul said and keep the feast? We must celebrate and receive Jesus Christ in the Eucharist! We can’t just eat a mere symbol of the Passover Lamb because if they had done so in the OT, death would come to their household. No, they absolutely had to eat the real Passover Lamb exactly as described. This blows the whole modern, “its just a symbol” theory out of the water.
 
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