Catholic Traditions

[steve_b]

not advisable to pray the hail mary, protestants don’t apreciate that.

If Protestants knew scripture they’d see the words of the prayer come from the pages of scripture. As Randy pointed out

· Hail [Mary] full of grace, the Lord is with you [Luke 1:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+1:28&version=RSVCE) Angel Gabriel greeting Mary
· Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb [Jesus] [Luke 1:42 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+1:42&version=RSVCE) Mary’s cousin Elizabeth addresses Mary
**· **[Holy Mary] mother of my Lord (God) [Luke 1:43 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+1:43&version=RSVCE) Elizabeth addressing Mary
· Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of death is a simple request of asking someone for their prayers.
d:

you don’t won’t to look on that website to hear what they have to say about the hail marys

When satan waged war on the human race, we know whose side a person is on by who they side with. [Revelation 12:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+12:17&version=RSVCE)

• On one side are Mary and her offspring (Jesus and all those who are in His Catholic Church). They support and fight for Jesus and our mother Mary.
• On the other side, as scripture shows, are the ones who make war on Mary and her offspring Jesus and His Church. Because they show they aren’t her offspring. THEY are from satan and all his offspring.

This war was predicted from the beginning [Genesis 3:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+3:15&version=RSVCE)

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

“Catholics do not see the mass as just another celebration of the Passover”

this is were i misunderstood, someone else had seemed to me that this was the case. Great post.

Thanks! I’m glad we cleared up that misconception.

But that very idea itself is unbiblical since there is no place in scripture where it lays claim to being the final and absolute authority for what we believe and practice. As the following 3 linked threads have shown, it’s simply not there…

He is following the advice of St. Cyril.

Have thou ever in your mind this seal, which for the present has been lightly touched in my discourse, by way of summary, but shall be stated, should the Lord permit, to the best of my power with the proof from the Scriptures. For concerning the divine and holy mysteries of the Faith, not even a casual statement must be delivered without the Holy Scriptures; nor must we be drawn aside by mere plausibility and artifices of speech. Even to me, who tell you these things, give not absolute credence, unless thou receive the proof of the things which I announce from the Divine Scriptures. For this salvation which we believe depends not on ingenious reasoning , but on demonstration of the Holy Scriptures. (Catechetical Lectures 4.17)

Examining whether teachings are consonant with Scripture in no way denies the authority of God’s Church. Therefore, the Second Vatican Council teaches that scripture together with sacred tradition form the supreme rule of faith. Moreover, “like the Christian religion itself, all the preaching of the Church must be nourished and regulated by Sacred Scripture” (Dei Verbum 21).

 

[jimkhong]

OK, let’s see how many I can cover. This should be fun.

OF ALL THE HUMAN TRADITIONS taught and practiced by the Roman Catholic Church, which are contrary to the Bible, the most ancient are the prayers for the dead and the sign of the Cross. Both began 300 years after Christ. 310 - sign of the cross is very ancient but mentioned by Tertulian in AD 200. Prayers for the dead was mentioned in Macabees (but Protestant OT do not include Mac), written in about 160 BC.

Wax Candles introduced in church 320 - no sure why this is a heresy but could refer to Candlemas (Feast of Presentation of Jesus) when procession with beewax candles are conducted. Earliest surviving Candlesmas sermons date to around this date.

Veneration of angels and dead saints 375 - Veneration of apostles and martyrs date to early church, well before 375. Just that we do not consider the saints as dead (we commemorate their feastday as the day they die - their birthday into heaven).

The Mass, as a daily celebration, adopted 394 - Not sure why daily celebration of the mass is a heresy. I don’t have the date but I believe daily mass started with monks as parish communities in the early church only celebrated masses on Sundays. The first monastic community with organised rules was about 300AD.

The worship of Mary, the mother of Jesus, and the use of the term, “Mother of God”, as applied to her, originated in the Council of Ephesus 431 - Ephesus did not orignate the term but defended it (Nestor claimed that Jesus was separately man and God, not a man-God, and Mary was only the mother of the man person). First surviving written use of the term is from Origen about 200-250.

Priests began to dress differently from the laity 500 - Not sure why this is a heresy. A bit before this time, barbarians brought in their mode of dressing into the Roman Empire. Barbarians wear trousers while Roman wear robes, tunics etc which are retained in our priestly vestments today.

Extreme Unction 526 - dates from the early church, well before 526 (not sure the significance of this date). Rooted in NT letter of James.

The doctrine of Purgatory was first established by Gregory the Great 593 - Mentioned in Macabees (see above). Gregory did write about it but Ambrose (wrote 350-400) and Origen (wrote 200-250) wrote earlier about baptism/salvation by fire.

The Latin language, as the language of prayer and worship in churches, was also imposed by Pope Gregory I. 600 years after Christ - Latin used in mass in Rome at end of 2nd century. Originally the language of the Roman Church was Greek as most of the converts were from Eastern Mediteranean but quickly converts became Latin-speakers. There was about at least a century when the language of the mass (Greek) was not the vernacular (Latin) - sounds familiar?

The Word of God forbids praying and teaching in an unknown tongue. (1st Corinthians 14:9). 600 - Sorry, I don’t what they are referring to. Could be same as above. In anycase, masses are in the vernacular in the Western Catholic church since 1970.

The Bible teaches that we pray to God alone. In the primitive church never were prayers directed to Mary, or to dead saints. This practice began in the Roman Church. (Matthew 11:28; Luke 1:46; Acts 10:25-26; 14:14-18) 600 - We still don’t. We ask Mary and the saints alive in heaven to pray for us.

The Papacy is of pagan origin. The title of pope or universal bishop, was first given to the bishop of Rome by the wicked emperor Phocas. This he did to spite Bishop Ciriacus of Constantinople, who had justly excommunicated him for his having caused the assassination of his predecessor emperor Mauritius. Gregory 1, then bishop of Rome, refused the title, but his successor, Boniface III, first assumed title “pope.” Jesus did not appoint Peter to the headship of the apostles and forbade any such notion. (Luke 22:24-26; Ephesians 1:22-23; Colossians 1:18; 1st Corinthians 3:11). Note: Nor is there any mention in Scripture, nor in history, that Peter ever was in Rome, much less that he was pope there for 25 years; Clement, 3rd bishop of Rome, remarks that “there is no real 1st century evidence that Peter ever was in Rome.” 610 - Phocas was a Byzantine emperor who supported the Pope but Constantine acknowledged the position of the Pope after becoming emperor in 318.

 

[jimkhong]

The kissing of the Pope’s feet. It had been a pagan custom to kiss the feet of emperors. The Word of God forbids such practices. (Read Acts 10:25-26; Revelation 19:10; 22:9). 709 - Not sure when the practice started but I know when it ended - 20th century with Pope Paul in 1963, I think.

The Temporal power of the Popes. When Pepin, the usurper of the throne of France, descended into Italy, called by Pope Stephen II, to war against the Italian Lombards, he defeated them and gave the city of Rome and surrounding territory to the pope. Jesus expressly forbade such a thing, and He himself refused worldly kingship. (Read Matthew 4:8-9; 20:25-26; John 18:38). 750 - date is about right for the origin of the Papal States. History sometimes date it back to the Donation of Constantine in about 320 (land where St John Lateran in Rome now stands). I can tell you when it ended - 1870 with Italian unification; 1930 in treaty with Italy but the independent Vatican City still remains.

Worship of the cross, images and relics was authorized. This was by order of Dowager Empress Irene of Constantinople, who first caused to pluck the eyes of her own son, Constantine VI, and then called a church council at the request of Hadrian I, pope of Rome at that time. Such practice is called simply IDOLATRY in the Bible, and is severely condemned. (Read Exodus 20:4; 3:17; Deuteronomy 27:15; Psalm 115). 788 - the date refers to the iconoclastic heresy when some Greeks declared veneration of icons as heresy. Veneration of Icons, pictures, etc has been extent in Latin and Greek churches well before that.

Holy Water, mixed with a pinch of salt and blessed by the priest, was authorized 850 - Don’t know the significance of the date but use of Holy Water was introduced by St Matthew

The veneration of St. Joseph began 890 - 800 was the first surviving devotional writings about St Joseph but he has been venerated from the early church. The Orthodox have a longer history of venerating him than we do

The baptism of bells was instituted by Pope John XIV 965 - I think baptism of bells was celebrated from 12th century but papal sanction of church bells date from 600. Take your pick between these two dates

Canonization of dead saints, first by Pope John XV. Every believer and follower of Christ is called saint in the Bible. (Read Romans 1:7; 1st Colossians 1:2). 995 - Vatican intervened in the canonisation process around this date. Before this, saints were declared locally and the process had evolved slowly from the first century.

Fasting on Fridays and during Lent were imposed. Imposed by popes said to be interested in the commerce of fish. (Bull, or permit to eat meat), some authorities say, began in the year 700. This is against the plain teaching of the Bible. (Read Matthew 15:10; 1st Corinthians 10:25; 1st Timothy 4:1-3). 998 - fasting two days a week was common in the early church from the days of the Apostles and before, from Jewish practices (Didache, end first century, refers to weekly fasts. Clear written reference to Lent dates from second century and fasting was always part of Lent.

The Mass was developed gradually as a sacrifice; attendance made obligatory in the 11th century. The Bible teaches that the sacrifice of Christ was offered once and for all, and is not to be repeated, but only commemorated in the Lord’s Supper. (Read Hebrews 7:27; 9:26-28; 10:10-14). - Sunday mass has been a sacrifice and was obligatory from the early church. That is why we have priests (only priests can offer sacrifice) while Protestants don’t - they have pastors.

The celibacy of the priesthood was decreed by Pope Hildebrand, Boniface VII. Jesus imposed no such rule, nor did any of the apostles. On the contrary, St. Peter was a married man, and St. Paul says that bishops were to have wife and children. (Read 1st Timothy 3:2,5, and 12; Matthew 8:14-15). 1079 - About right for diocesan priests in Wstern Church. But note that monks & religious priests have always been celibate from the beginning while Eastern Catholic priests can be married. In Eastern/Orthodox Church, bishops came from monks and so were celibate.

The Rosary, or prayer beads was introduced by Peter the Hermit, in the year 1090. Copied from Hindus and Mohammedans. The counting of prayers is a pagan practice and is expressly condemned by Christ. (Matthew 6:5-13). 1090 - Tradition is that OL gave the first rosary to St Dominic in about 1200.

The Inquisition of heretics was instituted by the Council of Verona in the year 1184. Jesus never taught the use of force to spread His religion 1184 - Never heard of a Council of Verona (city of Romeo & Juliet !!?) but the Cathars were suppressed around this date (with violence in a military Crusade, not a inquisition). There have been inquistorial tribunals well before this date, with no record torture or violence.

Can I finish tomorrow? It is near midnight where I am.

 

[dandy1822]

**“Hail [Mary] full of grace! The Lord is with you.” **This is straight from scripture - the greeting of the Angel at the annunciation.

"Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb [Jesus]." This is straight from scripture - the words of Elizabeth at the visitation.

"Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death." Since Jesus is God, and Mary is His Mother, Mary is the Mother of God. So we’re simply a bunch of Christians asking another Christian to pray for us.

I’m not sure what any Protestants would find objectionable in any of that, are you?

the first two are from scripture, but where in scripture does it tell you to say the hail marys
some 53 times like in the rosary

the last quote is highly disputable among protestants as there is no scripture to instruct
christians to pray through intermediaries or to ask mary or the saints to pray for them.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

the first two are from scripture, but where in scripture does it tell you to say the hail marys
some 53 times like in the rosary

the last quote is highly disputable among protestants as there is no scripture to instruct
christians to pray through intermediaries or to ask mary or the saints to pray for them.

Where in Scripture does it say that it has to be in scripture?

 

[dandy1822]

If Protestants knew scripture they’d see the words of the prayer come from the pages of scripture. As Randy pointed out

· Hail [Mary] full of grace, the Lord is with you [Luke 1:28 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+1:28&version=RSVCE) Angel Gabriel greeting Mary
· Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb [Jesus] [Luke 1:42 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+1:42&version=RSVCE) Mary’s cousin Elizabeth addresses Mary
**· **[Holy Mary] mother of my Lord (God) [Luke 1:43 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+1:43&version=RSVCE) Elizabeth addressing Mary
· Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of death is a simple request of asking someone for their prayers.

When satan waged war on the human race, we know whose side a person is on by who they side with. [Revelation 12:17 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+12:17&version=RSVCE)

• On one side are Mary and her offspring (Jesus and all those who are in His Catholic Church). They support and fight for Jesus and our mother Mary.
• On the other side, as scripture shows, are the ones who make war on Mary and her offspring Jesus and His Church. Because they show they aren’t her offspring. THEY are from satan and all his offspring.

This war was predicted from the beginning [Genesis 3:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+3:15&version=RSVCE)

protestant who do know the scripture know that this was not a prayer:shrug:

 

[FathersKnowBest]

protestant who do know the scripture know that this was not a prayer:shrug:

Is there something inherently wrong with using scripture in prayer?

 

[zz912]

the first two are from scripture, but where in scripture does it tell you to say the hail marys
some 53 times like in the rosary

The Parable of the Persistent Widow.
Luke 18:1 Then he told them a parable about the necessity for them to pray always without becoming weary. He said, 2 “There was a judge in a certain town who neither feared God nor respected any human being. 3 And a widow in that town used to come to him and say, ‘Render a just decision for me against my adversary.’ 4 For a long time the judge was unwilling, but eventually he thought, ‘While it is true that I neither fear God nor respect any human being, 5 because this widow keeps bothering me I shall deliver a just decision for her lest she finally come and strike me.’” 6 The Lord said, “Pay attention to what the dishonest judge says. 7 Will not God then secure the rights of his chosen ones who call out to him day and night? Will he be slow to answer them? 8 I tell you, he will see to it that justice is done for them speedily. But when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?”

And should we discuss the Psalms that repetitively repeat the same refrain?

Or how about the unending repetition of prayer in Heaven?

Rev 4:8 The four living creatures, each of them with six wings, were covered with eyes inside and out. Day and night they do not stop exclaiming:

“Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God almighty,

who was, and who is, and who is to come.”

So exactly how many times is repeating a prayer make it wrong? And where is this declared in Scripture?

the last quote is highly disputable among protestants as there is no scripture to instruct
christians to pray through intermediaries or to ask mary or the saints to pray for them.

You should read your Bible some more.

Rev 5:8 When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones.

Rev 8:3 Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a gold censer. He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the holy ones, on the gold altar that was before the throne. 4 The smoke of the incense along with the prayers of the holy ones went up before God from the hand of the angel.

1 Tim 2:1 First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone, 2 for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity. 3 This is good and pleasing to God our savior,

 

[pablope]

the first two are from scripture, but where in scripture does it tell you to say the hail marys

some 53 times like in the rosary

 

[dandy1822]

Where in Scripture does it say that it has to be in scripture?

there is some scripture which refers to praying in vain repititions - matt 6:7

 

[dandy1822]

Is there something inherently wrong with using scripture in prayer?

i suppose it depends who you are directing the prayer at

 

[dandy1822]

The Parable of the Persistent Widow.
Luke 18:1 Then he told them a parable about the necessity for them to pray always without becoming weary. He said, 2 “There was a judge in a certain town who neither feared God nor respected any human being. 3 And a widow in that town used to come to him and say, ‘Render a just decision for me against my adversary.’ 4 For a long time the judge was unwilling, but eventually he thought, ‘While it is true that I neither fear God nor respect any human being, 5 because this widow keeps bothering me I shall deliver a just decision for her lest she finally come and strike me.’” 6 The Lord said, “Pay attention to what the dishonest judge says. 7 Will not God then secure the rights of his chosen ones who call out to him day and night? Will he be slow to answer them? 8 I tell you, he will see to it that justice is done for them speedily. But when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?”

And should we discuss the Psalms that repetitively repeat the same refrain?

Or how about the unending repetition of prayer in Heaven?

Rev 4:8 The four living creatures, each of them with six wings, were covered with eyes inside and out. Day and night they do not stop exclaiming:

“Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God almighty,

who was, and who is, and who is to come.”

So exactly how many times is repeating a prayer make it wrong? And where is this declared in Scripture?

the ones in question were praying to god not mary. on the book of revelations did it say
that anybody in heaven dictated prays to mary?

You should read your Bible some more.

Rev 5:8 When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones.

Rev 8:3 Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a gold censer. He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the holy ones, on the gold altar that was before the throne. 4 The smoke of the incense along with the prayers of the holy ones went up before God from the hand of the angel.

1 Tim 2:1 First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone, 2 for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity. 3 This is good and pleasing to God our savior,

 

[dandy1822]

The Parable of the Persistent Widow.
Luke 18:1 Then he told them a parable about the necessity for them to pray always without becoming weary. He said, 2 “There was a judge in a certain town who neither feared God nor respected any human being. 3 And a widow in that town used to come to him and say, ‘Render a just decision for me against my adversary.’ 4 For a long time the judge was unwilling, but eventually he thought, ‘While it is true that I neither fear God nor respect any human being, 5 because this widow keeps bothering me I shall deliver a just decision for her lest she finally come and strike me.’” 6 The Lord said, “Pay attention to what the dishonest judge says. 7 Will not God then secure the rights of his chosen ones who call out to him day and night? Will he be slow to answer them? 8 I tell you, he will see to it that justice is done for them speedily. But when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?”

And should we discuss the Psalms that repetitively repeat the same refrain?

Or how about the unending repetition of prayer in Heaven?

Rev 4:8 The four living creatures, each of them with six wings, were covered with eyes inside and out. Day and night they do not stop exclaiming:

“Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God almighty,

who was, and who is, and who is to come.”

So exactly how many times is repeating a prayer make it wrong? And where is this declared in Scripture?

You should read your Bible some more.

Rev 5:8 When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones.

Rev 8:3 Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a gold censer. He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the holy ones, on the gold altar that was before the throne. 4 The smoke of the incense along with the prayers of the holy ones went up before God from the hand of the angel.

1 Tim 2:1 First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone, 2 for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity. 3 This is good and pleasing to God our savior,

the ones praying in heaven were directing their prayers to god not mary. on the book of
revelations did anybody pray to mary?

on the saints it didn,t actually say what the prayers were or that they were from people
on earth. they could have been their own prays.

 

[dandy1822]

Where does the Bible say to pray only one, one time? Where does the Bible state specifically how many number of times to pray?

 

[FathersKnowBest]

jesus stated how many times to pray when he told us how we should pray by starting with
our father which art in heaven. he only stated this once. did he state that we should also
pray a rosary?

So, you’re saying that Jesus sinned at Gethsemane when He prayed the same prayer multiple times?

we are all sinners, yes we must ask jesus for forgiveness, we just don’t ask mary to pray
for us - we prefer to pray for ourselves.

I see. You are told not to pray for others, nor to ask others to pray for you.

Really?

1 tim 2:1 you will notice there is a comma after prayers so prayers and intercession are two different things.

There is?
I’m sure you know that the punctuation is not in the original.

perhaps you should read verse 5 it tells you there is only one
mediator between god and man which is jesus christ

Yet we’re called to mediate all the time when we’re told to offer prayers for each other!

More on this as time permits …

 

[ahs]

there is some scripture which refers to praying in vain repititions - matt 6:7

The key word there being “vain”. Catholics don’t believe it is vain to continually ask prayers from one another, just like we don’t believe it is vain to pray the Psalms or the Lord’s Prayer over and over.

Reading through your posts here, it appears that you believe that if we have ever said the Lord’s Prayer once in our life, we should never say it again. Is that what you believe? Why or why not?

Is it okay to ask others to pray for us? Why or why not?

Are those Christian faithful who have passed on before us alive or dead? Why do you believe whichever way you answer? (Mk12:26-27 and Heb 12:1 come to mind.)

 

[ahs]

the ones praying in heaven were directing their prayers to god not mary.

Who were the prayers of the holy ones directed toward that the angels are offering up to God? If these were offered directly to God, then the elders are doing something redundant by offering up these prayers of the holy ones to God.

In Tobit, why is the angel offering Tobit and Sarah’s prayers to God? Why didn’t they just go straight to God? Could it be that God uses us in His Work and allows us to pray for each other and ask prayers from one another? Could it be that God wants us to be active participants in His Salvific Work?

 

[pablope]

Rev 5:8 When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones.

 

[zz912]

jesus stated how many times to pray when he told us how we should pray by starting with
our father which art in heaven. he only stated this once. did he state that we should also
pray a rosary?

Considering that there are two different versions of the Our Father in the Gospels, this statement is factually wrong. Jesus clearly taught the prayer more than once, and taught it in different versions. Jesus probably taught it a multiple of times, as there was no tv, radio, or other communication tool other than speaking many times. That is why He preached for 3 years. To give everyone an opportunity to hear Him.

Did you miss the verses I posted earlier where we are taught to pray ceaselessly? Did you miss the parable of the Unjust Judge and the Widow, where Jesus taught us to pray endlessly? Why do you contradict Scripture?

we are all sinners, yes we must ask jesus for forgiveness, we just don’t ask mary to pray
for us - we prefer to pray for ourselves.

This is simply unbiblical. We are taught to pray for others repeatedly, and our prayers can be beneficial to forgive sins (venial).

*James 5:13 Is anyone among you suffering? He should pray. Is anyone in good spirits? He should sing praise. 14 Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and **they should pray over him **and anoint [him] with oil in the name of the Lord, 15 and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven.

16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful. 17 Elijah was a human being like us; yet he prayed earnestly that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain upon the land. 18 Then he prayed again, and the sky gave rain and the earth produced its fruit.

19 My brothers, if anyone among you should stray from the truth and someone bring him back, 20 he should know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.*

god is not a god of the dead but of the living so i guess they must be living somewhere.
in matt. 6:6 it says when we pray to the father it is in secret, and the father seeth in secret
so does that mean the saints can hear you?

This is a pretty big question. Who has authority to definitively declare the correct teaching so that Christians can know the answer and not be confused?

1 tim 2:1 you will notice there is a comma after prayers so prayers and intercession are
two different things. perhaps you should read verse 5 it tells you there is only one
mediator between god and man which is jesus Christ

You are aware that there is no punctuation in the originals, right?