Catholic Traditions

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I understand they ate the lamb,as they did the Passover meal and drank wine. They had to **put blood on the doorpost,**not had to eat lamb. I understand jesus is the Passover lamb. When jews centuries later ate lamb, they did not eat the literal lamb from exodus, or drink its blood. But we both know the debate is over the gospel of john not the original Passover lamb.
 
I understand they ate the lamb,as they did the Passover meal and drank wine. They had to **put blood on the doorpost,**not had to eat lamb. I understand jesus is the Passover lamb. When jews centuries later ate lamb, they did not eat the literal lamb from exodus, or drink its blood. But we both know the debate is over the gospel of john not the original Passover lamb.
They did not eat the blood (because it was forbidden to eat blood), but they were required flesh of the lamb. Read Exodus 12:8-11.

And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it.
Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof.
And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire.
And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the Lord’s passover.
 
They did not eat the blood (because it was forbidden to eat blood), but they were required flesh of the lamb. Read Exodus 12:8-11.

And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it.
Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof.
And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire.
And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the Lord’s passover.
clearley different than todays catholic last supper. The passover is not just eating and is done once a year lev 23. Also what i was saying is during the exodsu they were saved by the blood of the lamb [just as we are saved by the blood of the lamb] on the doorpost. I also was saying when Israelite celebrated Passover, it was not eating the original lamb, but a lamb of there day in remembrance.
 
clearley different than todays catholic last supper. The passover is not just eating and is done once a year lev 23. Also what i was saying is during the exodsu they were saved by the blood of the lamb [just as we are saved by the blood of the lamb] on the doorpost. I also was saying when Israelite celebrated Passover, it was not eating the original lamb, but a lamb of there day in remembrance.
What would have happened to the firstborn son of a vegan family in Egypt who put blood on the doorposts but refused to obey the command to eat the lamb?

The purpose of eating the lamb in the OT was to prefigure the eating of the Lamb in the NT.
 
What would have happened to the firstborn son of a vegan family in Egypt who put blood on the doorposts but refused to obey the command to eat the lamb?

The purpose of eating the lamb in the OT was to prefigure the eating of the Lamb in the NT.
nothing would happen.as i said, it was the blood of the lamb that was Passover, not the full bellies.

Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin, Heb. 9:22 not without the eating of flesh [law against in ot].

the unleavened bread was important part and the blood of the lamb.
 
nothing would happen.as i said, it was the blood of the lamb that was Passover, not the full bellies.

Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin, Heb. 9:22 not without the eating of flesh [law against in ot].

the unleavened bread was important part and the blood of the lamb.
We agree on the importance of the blood, but you are minimizing the obedience required by God in the smallest details.

Moses was not allowed to enter the Promised Land because he struck the rock in stead of speaking to it. A man who touched the Ark of the Covenant was killed even though he was trying to prevent it from tipping over or falling. God did not take these things lightly.

It was important for the Jews to EAT the lamb because in time, Jesus would give us His own body and blood in the Eucharist, and the original passover was a foreshadowing of that gift.

Jesus that He is the manna or bread come down from heaven, but he is also that Lamb that we must eat in order to have life in us.
 
TOTALRELISM I am praying for u and your confused disrespectfull views I WILL ESPECIALLY PRAY A HAIL MARY FOR YOU, you need it
Code:
                                                        PRAYING:gopray2:.
not advisable to pray the hail mary, protestants don’t apreciate that. you don’t won’t to look
on that website to hear what they have to say about the hail marys
 
We agree on the importance of the blood, but you are minimizing the obedience required by God in the smallest details.

Moses was not allowed to enter the Promised Land because he struck the rock in stead of speaking to it. A man who touched the Ark of the Covenant was killed even though he was trying to prevent it from tipping over or falling. God did not take these things lightly.

It was important for the Jews to EAT the lamb because in time, Jesus would give us His own body and blood in the Eucharist, and the original passover was a foreshadowing of that gift.

Jesus that He is the manna or bread come down from heaven, but he is also that Lamb that we must eat in order to have life in us.
I agree with first parts wholly as there in the bible. the Eucharist part is nowere in the ot story. As i stated its the** blood** that was the difference. That is the connection made to jesus blood saving us. The ordinal Passover foreshadowed jesus death as the lamb of god, dying for our sins.

john 1.29
"Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

exodus 12
12 “On that same night I will pass through Egypt and strike down every firstborn of both people and animals, and I will bring** judgment** on all the gods of Egypt. I am the Lord. 13 The blood will be a sign for you on the houses where you are, and when I see the blood, I will pass over you. No destructive plague will touch you when I strike Egypt.

the blood saves.

"The life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.
lev 17.11

“If we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin”
1 john 1.7
not advisable to pray the hail mary, protestants don’t apreciate that. you don’t won’t to look
on that website to hear what they have to say about the hail marys
agreed, but i think that is why she said it. Those sneaky catholic i tell yeah lol. Mary is a topic i have many questions on in future.
 
I agree with first parts wholly as there in the bible. the Eucharist part is nowere in the ot story.
The bread of the presence (or showbread) is mentioned many times in the OT. God commanded Moses to make 3 sacred objects to keep in the “tent of meeting” (AKA tabernacle)
1: The Ark of the Covenant
2: The golden Lampstand (Menorah)
3: The golden table of the Bread of the Presence.

Leviticus 24:5-7 talks about Aaron (high priest) was to set this table every Sabbath as an everlasting covenant. Jesus refers to this in Mt. 12:5 “Have you not read in the Law how on the Sabbath the priests in the Temple profane the Sabbath, and are guiltless?”. The priests did work in the temple preparing and offering the Bread of the Presence.

Ezekiel 41:21-22 refers to this golden table as an altar.

The priest tells David in 1 Sam 21 that “I have no common bread at hand, but there is Holy Bread; if only the young men have kept themselves from women”. We are still required to be free of mortal sin, to partake in the Eucharist.

The Bread of the Presence / The Last Supper

12 cakes for 12 tribes / 12 disciples for 12 tribes

Bread and wine of God’s Presence /Bread and wine of Jesus’ Presence

An “everlasting covenant” (diatheke)/ A New “Covenant” (diatheke)

As a “remembrance” (anamnesis) /As a “remembrance” of Jesus (anamnesis)

Offered by High Priest, eaten by priests/ Offered by Jesus, eaten by disciples

Eaten at the Golden Table (trapeza) in Jerusalem /Jesus’ table (trapeze) in Kingdom of Father

There are more references, but this should be enough to get you going.
 
The Eucharist is indeed widely foreshadowed in the OT, but even more so in the NT, which I walk you through in the following blog article. The Eucharist IS Scriptural

John the Baptist straight up designates Jesus as “the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world”, right? Well what happened to the sacrificed lambs? Yeah…they were eaten. Can’t understand how you missed that…
 
clearley different than todays catholic last supper. The passover is not just eating and is done once a year lev 23. Also what i was saying is during the exodsu they were saved by the blood of the lamb [just as we are saved by the blood of the lamb] on the doorpost. I also was saying when Israelite celebrated Passover, it was not eating the original lamb, but a lamb of there day in remembrance.
I think I see what you’re saying now, but the way you said it confused me. Remember that there was not just one original lamb, but one lamb per household. Based on the population data given in the Pentateuch, that’s a lot of lambs!

You are right that when the Israelites ate the Passover, they were not eating any of the lambs from the first Passover. They were eating new lambs. But that does not necessarily have any bearing on the Eucharist and the Last Supper. Catholics do not see the mass as just another celebration of the Passover, otherwise we would only go to Church on Easter. The Passover was only a foreshadowing (or type) of the Lord’s Supper. The blood of the lambs didn’t have any power of themselves to purify from sin and avert God’s judgment. For that reason, the identity of the individual lamb sacrificed didn’t matter. The forgiveness of sins came entirely through Jesus Christ, who is not any lamb but the Lamb of God. The Eucharist then is not just another Passover meal anymore than the lambs sacrificed in the Passover could be literally identified as Christ. It is a new rite entirely. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. I propose it is more fitting that the old rite, which was only symbolic, had a symbolic memorial, and the new rite, which is based on the true forgiveness of sins by the blood of Jesus Christ, out to be a true memorial, not just the presence of bread and wine, but the Bread from Heaven and the fruit of the True Vine, which is the cup of his blood.

Not only is the Eucharist not identical with the Passover, it is not foreshadowed only by the Passover either. A few obvious examples would be the showbread, the manna and the offering of Melchizedek. So when you say the Passover is celebrated once a year, that is true, but they ate manna every day. So while we celebrate Easter once a year, we celebrate mass daily. It also explains why the gifts of the mass are bread and wine rather than a lamb (though it would make church more exciting).

Regarding eating the lamb, you are correct that spreading the blood on the door was the most essential part of the sacrifice (the oblation). Nevertheless, it would not be right to say that eating the lamb in no way belonged to the sacrificial act anymore than it would be right to say the same thing about slaughtering the lamb. In the Tabernacle, after the blood is sprinkled, the body of the victim is consumed (immolation). Eating the lamb was the form of immolation for the Passover sacrifice, which is seen clearly in the fact that what is not eaten by morning is commanded to be burnt (Ex. 12:10).
 
The bread of the presence (or showbread) is mentioned many times in the OT. God commanded Moses to make 3 sacred objects to keep in the “tent of meeting” (AKA tabernacle)
1: The Ark of the Covenant
2: The golden Lampstand (Menorah)
3: The golden table of the Bread of the Presence.

Leviticus 24:5-7 talks about Aaron (high priest) was to set this table every Sabbath as an everlasting covenant. Jesus refers to this in Mt. 12:5 “Have you not read in the Law how on the Sabbath the priests in the Temple profane the Sabbath, and are guiltless?”. The priests did work in the temple preparing and offering the Bread of the Presence.

Ezekiel 41:21-22 refers to this golden table as an altar.

The priest tells David in 1 Sam 21 that “I have no common bread at hand, but there is Holy Bread; if only the young men have kept themselves from women”. We are still required to be free of mortal sin, to partake in the Eucharist.

The Bread of the Presence / The Last Supper

12 cakes for 12 tribes / 12 disciples for 12 tribes

Bread and wine of God’s Presence /Bread and wine of Jesus’ Presence

An “everlasting covenant” (diatheke)/ A New “Covenant” (diatheke)

As a “remembrance” (anamnesis) /As a “remembrance” of Jesus (anamnesis)

Offered by High Priest, eaten by priests/ Offered by Jesus, eaten by disciples

Eaten at the Golden Table (trapeza) in Jerusalem /Jesus’ table (trapeze) in Kingdom of Father

There are more references, but this should be enough to get you going.
I fully understand, i think were we are differing is on just what the Eucharist is. If your referring to the bread of Passover than i agree 100%. If your referring to the actual body of jesus than i disagree. Certainly this will be a topic to discuss in future when i better understand catholic theology,i think this is one you wont be able to win me over on, and deserves its own thread.
 
The Eucharist is indeed widely foreshadowed in the OT, but even more so in the NT, which I walk you through in the following blog article. The Eucharist IS Scriptural

John the Baptist straight up designates Jesus as “the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world”, right? Well what happened to the sacrificed lambs? Yeah…they were eaten. Can’t understand how you missed that…
first blog you linked that i did not read reason being, I will do thread in future on this topic alone, that is how it should be in my opinion. BTW, i never,never said they did not eat the lamb of Passover dinner, i eat the lamb as i celebrate Passover.
I think I see what you’re saying now, but the way you said it confused me. Remember that there was not just one original lamb, but one lamb per household. Based on the population data given in the Pentateuch, that’s a lot of lambs!

You are right that when the Israelites ate the Passover, they were not eating any of the lambs from the first Passover. They were eating new lambs. But that does not necessarily have any bearing on the Eucharist and the Last Supper. Catholics do not see the mass as just another celebration of the Passover, otherwise we would only go to Church on Easter. The Passover was only a foreshadowing (or type) of the Lord’s Supper. The blood of the lambs didn’t have any power of themselves to purify from sin and avert God’s judgment. For that reason, the identity of the individual lamb sacrificed didn’t matter. The forgiveness of sins came entirely through Jesus Christ, who is not any lamb but the Lamb of God. The Eucharist then is not just another Passover meal anymore than the lambs sacrificed in the Passover could be literally identified as Christ. It is a new rite entirely. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. I propose it is more fitting that the old rite, which was only symbolic, had a symbolic memorial, and the new rite, which is based on the true forgiveness of sins by the blood of Jesus Christ, out to be a true memorial, not just the presence of bread and wine, but the Bread from Heaven and the fruit of the True Vine, which is the cup of his blood.

Not only is the Eucharist not identical with the Passover, it is not foreshadowed only by the Passover either. A few obvious examples would be the showbread, the manna and the offering of Melchizedek. So when you say the Passover is celebrated once a year, that is true, but they ate manna every day. So while we celebrate Easter once a year, we celebrate mass daily. It also explains why the gifts of the mass are bread and wine rather than a lamb (though it would make church more exciting).

Regarding eating the lamb, you are correct that spreading the blood on the door was the most essential part of the sacrifice (the oblation). Nevertheless, it would not be right to say that eating the lamb in no way belonged to the sacrificial act anymore than it would be right to say the same thing about slaughtering the lamb. In the Tabernacle, after the blood is sprinkled, the body of the victim is consumed (immolation). Eating the lamb was the form of immolation for the Passover sacrifice, which is seen clearly in the fact that what is not eaten by morning is commanded to be burnt (Ex. 12:10).
“Catholics do not see the mass as just another celebration of the Passover”

this is were i misunderstood, someone else had seemed to me that this was the case. Great post.
 
not advisable to pray the hail mary, protestants don’t apreciate that. you don’t won’t to look
on that website to hear what they have to say about the hail marys
**“Hail [Mary] full of grace! The Lord is with you.” **This is straight from scripture - the greeting of the Angel at the annunciation.

"Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb [Jesus]." This is straight from scripture - the words of Elizabeth at the visitation.

"Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death." Since Jesus is God, and Mary is His Mother, Mary is the Mother of God. So we’re simply a bunch of Christians asking another Christian to pray for us.

I’m not sure what any Protestants would find objectionable in any of that, are you?
 
I fully understand, i think were we are differing is on just what the Eucharist is. If your referring to the bread of Passover than i agree 100%. If your referring to the actual body of jesus than i disagree. Certainly this will be a topic to discuss in future when i better understand catholic theology,i think this is one you wont be able to win me over on, and deserves its own thread.
I can only suggest you pray. Faith is a gift from God and as such, it is not within my capacity to “win you over”. If you are intent on rejection, there is no amount of evidence (scriptural or otherwise) that anyone can offer that will be sufficient to enlighten your acceptance of a mystery so profound as to transcend human logic. Many posters here have offered support already.
The only difference I can see between the former disciples that said, “This teaching is too hard, who can hear it” is the clarity with which we understand, “They followed Him no more.” But today, when we hear “this teaching is to hard”, the rejection is issued by those that insist they are still followers. I don’t say this harshly, but only as one who hurts to see my Lord rejected.
 
I can only suggest you pray. Faith is a gift from God and as such, it is not within my capacity to “win you over”. If you are intent on rejection, there is no amount of evidence (scriptural or otherwise) that anyone can offer that will be sufficient to enlighten your acceptance of a mystery so profound as to transcend human logic. Many posters here have offered support already.
The only difference I can see between the former disciples that said, “This teaching is too hard, who can hear it” is the clarity with which we understand, “They followed Him no more.” But today, when we hear “this teaching is to hard”, the rejection is issued by those that insist they are still followers. I don’t say this harshly, but only as one who hurts to see my Lord rejected.
First,thanks much for your concern, while you may think people dont change mind on debating subjected, i do and i have on many things.

I am content to try as best i can to put my beliefs in line with the bible. If someone is teaching a unbiblical idea, than yes i want to reject that, that itself is a biblical idea. In future thread perhaps i will see my view current is unbiblical, than i will change.
 
first blog you linked that i did not read reason being, I will do thread in future on this topic alone, that is how it should be in my opinion.
Before you bother with that you might wanna read through the debate thread here on CAF where that blog post originated some years ago. The Eucharist IS Scriptural!
BTW, i never,never said they did not eat the lamb of Passover dinner, i eat the lamb as i celebrate Passover.
I never said that you did, but the point is that if the passover lamb was eaten and Jesus is “the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world” (John 1:29) and “the Lamb that was slain” (Revelation 5:6, Revelation 5:12, Revelation 13:8,) then this ties in with John 6 where Our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ clearly states that "[54]… Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. [55] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. "
 
I am content to try as best i can to put my beliefs in line with the bible. If someone is teaching a unbiblical idea, than yes i want to reject that, that itself is a biblical idea. In future thread perhaps i will see my view current is unbiblical, than i will change.
But that very idea itself is unbiblical since there is no place in scripture where it lays claim to being the final and absolute authority for what we believe and practice. As the following 3 linked threads have shown, it’s simply not there…
 
Before you bother with that you might wanna read through the debate thread here on CAF where that blog post originated some years ago. The Eucharist IS Scriptural!I never said that you did, but the point is that if the passover lamb was eaten and Jesus is “the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world” (John 1:29) and “the Lamb that was slain” (Revelation 5:6, Revelation 5:12, Revelation 13:8,) then this ties in with John 6 where Our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ clearly states that "[54]… Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. [55] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. "
But that very idea itself is unbiblical since there is no place in scripture where it lays claim to being the final and absolute authority for what we believe and practice. As the following 3 linked threads have shown, it’s simply not there…
looks like we have allot to debate in future,thanks for links.🙂
 
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