Catholic Traditions

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dandy1822 said:
on the saints it didn,t actually say what the prayers were or that they were from people
on earth. they could have been their own prays.
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Yes, it does say they were the prayers of those on earth.

*Psalm 141:2 Let my prayer be incense before you; my uplifted hands an evening offering.

Rev 8:3 Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a gold censer. He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the holy ones, on the gold altar that was before the throne. 4 The smoke of the incense along with the prayers of the holy ones went up before God from the hand of the angel. *
 
FathersKnowBest said:
So, you’re saying that Jesus sinned at Gethsemane when He prayed the same prayer multiple times? :eek:

I see. You are told not to pray for others, nor to ask others to pray for you.

Really?

There is?
I’m sure you know that the punctuation is not in the original. :rolleyes:

Yet we’re called to mediate all the time when we’re told to offer prayers for each other!

More on this as time permits …
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when you say multiple times do you mean three times? but he was not praying in vain
he was talking to his father. it does tell you to pray for others [on earth] but it didn,t say
pray to others.

who then passes your prayers onto god you?
 
dandy1822 said:
when you say multiple times do you mean three times? but he was not praying in vain
he was talking to his father. it does tell you to pray for others [on earth] but it didn,t say
pray to others.

who then passes your prayers onto god you?
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Just wondering dandy, I’m all up for healthy debate amongst Christians, though I was wondering on whose authority you criticize the Catholic Church by?
 
dandy1822 said:
when you say multiple times do you mean three times? but he was not praying in vain
he was talking to his father. it does tell you to pray for others [on earth] but it didn,t say
pray to others.

who then passes your prayers onto god you?
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The book of Revelations shows it is the saints and angels.

Do you have other scripture passages that show otherwise?
 
dandy1822 said:

.

When you only pray for yourself…isn’t this being selfish? Is praying for only yourself the actions of a true christian or not?
god is not a god of the dead but of the living so i guess they must be living somewhere.
in matt. 6:6 it says when we pray to the father it is in secret, and the father seeth in secret
so does that mean the saints can hear you?
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Well…did not Jesus say that when one repents, all of those in heaven rejoice? And are there not saints in heaven? If the saints in heaven rejoice…do you think they can rejoice if they do not hear us?
1 tim 2:1 you will notice there is a comma after prayers so prayers and intercession are
two different things. perhaps you should read verse 5 it tells you there is only one
mediator between god and man which is jesus christ
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1 Timothy 2
I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,

So you are saying…Paul contradicts what he stated in v1 with what he writes in v5?
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[/QUOTE]
 
dandy1822 said:
when you say multiple times do you mean three times? but he was not praying in vain
he was talking to his father.
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Exactly.
Neither do Catholics pray in vain repetition.
I’m glad we agree.
it does tell you to pray for others [on earth] but it didn,t say
pray to others.
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If you use the correct definition of “pray” (i.e., not in the sense of worship), which was in use prior to the time your religion was invented (by men), it does. In fact, that’s exactly what St. Paul is doing when he asks others for their prayers!
who then passes your prayers onto god you?
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Well, in Revelation, St. John sees the Angels and the 24 Elders doing this.
 
dandy1822 said:
the first two are from scripture, but where in scripture does it tell you to say the hail marys
some 53 times like in the rosary
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Where in scripture does it tell you how many times to say any prayer? Well, Paul says we should pray without ceasing. Saying the rosary is just a devotion, and it’s purely optional. If you prefer other devotions for your prayer time, good for you. I’m sure God is pleased whenever we turn our minds to thoughts of heaven, etc.
the last quote is highly disputable among protestants as there is no scripture to instruct christians to pray through intermediaries or to ask mary or the saints to pray for them.
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Have you ever asked anyone in your family or church to pray for you about a test at school, a new job, or a problem at home? Talking to saints in heaven is pretty much the same as talking to the saints here on earth…except that those in heaven never grow weary and their prayers are really effective because they are truly righteous whereas we are still imperfect in this life.
 
dandy1822 said:
there is some scripture which refers to praying in vain repititions - matt 6:7
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Matthew 6:7-8: Vain Repetition

Many non-Catholics believe that praying the rosary violates Jesus’ teaching about “vain repetition” found in His Sermon on the Mount:

“And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.” (Matthew 6:7-8)

Immediately after saying this, He went on to teach the crowd the following prayer:

"This, then, is how you should pray: ‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily bread. Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.’” (Matthew 6:9-13)

Jesus didn’t say, “You might want to say something like the following”…he said, “When you pray, say” and He gave us precise words that we should pray daily for our daily bread, and these words have been repeated for 2,000 years. Is this “vain repetition”? Hardly.

Matthew 26:43-44
43When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. 44So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing.

Jesus prayed a third time saying the same things he had said previously. Is this “vain repetition”? Hardly.

Revelation 4:8
Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under his wings.Day and night they never stop saying: “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come.”

The creatures keep saying the same thing over and over and over again - day and night. Is this “vain repetition”? Hardly.
 
dandy1822 said:
when you say multiple times do you mean three times? but he was not praying in vain
he was talking to his father. it does tell you to pray for others [on earth] but it didn,t say
pray to others.

who then passes your prayers onto god you?
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Is ALL prayer worship? :nope:

Sometimes we are giving thanks, or just talking about our needs or interceding for others…those things are prayer but they are not worship. I can tell a saint that you need enlightenment about prayer just as easily as I can tell God that.

And my Father, who sees what is done in secret, knows what I pray even before I ask.

So, if I ask Mary to help you, God has already heard my prayer, but she will pray for you without ceasing long after I have gotten sleepy and gone to bed.
 
Randy_Carson said:
Matthew 6:7-8: Vain Repetition

Many non-Catholics believe that praying the rosary violates Jesus’ teaching about “vain repetition” found in His Sermon on the Mount:

“And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.” (Matthew 6:7-8)

Immediately after saying this, He went on to teach the crowd the following prayer:

"This, then, is how you should pray: ‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily bread. Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.’” (Matthew 6:9-13)

Jesus didn’t say, “You might want to say something like the following”…he said, “When you pray, say” and He gave us precise words that we should pray daily for our daily bread, and these words have been repeated for 2,000 years. Is this “vain repetition”? Hardly.

Matthew 26:43-44
43When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. 44So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing.

Jesus prayed a third time saying the same things he had said previously. Is this “vain repetition”? Hardly.

Revelation 4:8
Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under his wings.Day and night they never stop saying: “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come.”

The creatures keep saying the same thing over and over and over again - day and night. Is this “vain repetition”? Hardly.
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Hey Randy, quick question:

As one coming into the Church, I have often pondered what Christ was referring to when he spoke of ‘vain repetition’. Although I have started to pray the Rosary, and indeed it does bear fruit (for me anyway), some of my old Protestant hangovers start protesting in my mind when I recite Hail Mary’s specifically.

I wonder if our Church forefathers or the Church itself has laid out anything that we can take as an example of vain repetition? Perhaps an objective dichotomy to look at would help soothe the little puritans running around in my mind.

Thanks!

In Christ,

James
 
ahs said:
The key word there being “vain”. Catholics don’t believe it is vain to continually ask prayers from one another, just like we don’t believe it is vain to pray the Psalms or the Lord’s Prayer over and over.

Reading through your posts here, it appears that you believe that if we have ever said the Lord’s Prayer once in our life, we should never say it again. Is that what you believe? Why or why not?

Is it okay to ask others to pray for us? Why or why not?

Are those Christian faithful who have passed on before us alive or dead? Why do you believe whichever way you answer? (Mk12:26-27 and Heb 12:1 come to mind.)
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i didn’t say once in our life, i meant we don’t need to say it 53 times without drawing
breath. it is not in vain to pray/sing psalms or the lords prayer because we are directing
these to jesus/god. it does say to pray for others protestants do this all the time, but there
is a difference in actually praying TO another.
the word vain means something of no real significance,worthless and having no real value,
which is how we look at the rosary because it is not directed to god/jesus.
the answer to your last question has to be alive because i do believe god is a god of the
living and certainly not a god of the dead.
 
ahs said:
Who were the prayers of the holy ones directed toward that the angels are offering up to God? If these were offered directly to God, then the elders are doing something redundant by offering up these prayers of the holy ones to God.

In Tobit, why is the angel offering Tobit and Sarah’s prayers to God? Why didn’t they just go straight to God? Could it be that God uses us in His Work and allows us to pray for each other and ask prayers from one another? Could it be that God wants us to be active participants in His Salvific Work?
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i really carn’t comment on tobit as we don’t posses that book in our bible, but there possibly
is only certain people who can approach the throne of god. but in tim 2:5 is says that only
one person can mediate between man and god and that it is jesus.
 
“Don’t ask Mary, the saints or angels to pray for you.” --The Devil’s favorite lie.
 
dandy1822 said:
i didn’t say once in our life, i meant we don’t need to say it 53 times without drawing
breath. it is not in vain to pray/sing psalms or the lords prayer because we are directing
these to jesus/god. it does say to pray for others protestants do this all the time, but there
is a difference in actually praying TO another.
the word vain means something of no real significance,worthless and having no real value,
which is how we look at the rosary because it is not directed to god/jesus.
the answer to your last question has to be alive because i do believe god is a god of the
living and certainly not a god of the dead.
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Strange that…I could of sworn that when I pray my Rosary I open with the Apostle’s Creed and an Our Father and meditate on the Gospel. Begs the question, which Rosary are you referring to?
 
James82 said:
Hey Randy, quick question:

As one coming into the Church, I have often pondered what Christ was referring to when he spoke of ‘vain repetition’. Although I have started to pray the Rosary, and indeed it does bear fruit (for me anyway), some of my old Protestant hangovers start protesting in my mind when I recite Hail Mary’s specifically.

I wonder if our Church forefathers or the Church itself has laid out anything that we can take as an example of vain repetition? Perhaps an objective dichotomy to look at would help soothe the little puritans running around in my mind.

Thanks!

In Christ,

James
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Please allow me to share, James:

fisheaters.com/vainrepetitions.html

crossed-the-tiber.blogspot.com/2006/07/rosary-beads-vain-repetition-or-way-to.html
 
dandy1822 said:
GODS in isaiah 42:8
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Isaiah 42:8 “I am the LORD, that is my name;
my glory I give to no other,
nor my praise to graven images.”

Okay lets reflect on this a little dandy.

Would you agree that God alone is able to dispense grace throughout his manifest creation in whichever way he pleases as long as it does not contradict His nature?
 
Here’s a point that seems to confuse protestants. The Bible is just a part of Catholic Tradition.
 
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