Catholic View on Evolution

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“evolutionary link between dinosaurs and birds”? That’s unlikely:

sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090609092055.htm

Apparently, after centuries of studying birds, scientists have just noticed a fundamental difference in skeletal arrangement.

Peace,
Ed
Interesting, indeed! That article suggests a distant, common ancestor of birds and dinosaurs, with evolution happening along parallel lines. We learn something new every day, whether about avian lungs, or T-rex soft tissue!
 
Evolution - the theory that is always changing but always the same. No criticism can hurt it. :rolleyes: “likely”? It’s looking less likely all the time.Peace,
Ed
Ed, in all seriousness, have you ever taken a science course beyond elementary school? You seem unfamiliar with how science works. I can’t imagine your science teachers having failed to convey to you science’s basic principles of methdological doubt and the provisional nature of knowledge.

StAnastasia
 
Evolution - the theory that is always changing but always the same. No criticism can hurt it. :rolleyes:

“likely”? It’s looking less likely all the time.

Peace,
Ed
The study of evolution (" a process that results in heritable changes in a population spread over many generations" - Douglas Futuyma, Evolutionary Biology) is still in its infancy, and wondrous discoveries are always being made. These discoveries help flesh out the picture and add to the body of knowledge; they don’t contradict the basic theory.
 
Oh, but can’t it? If a colorblind person and one who sees color argue about the color of the sky, are they not both right in their own way?
No…because the color of the sky as seen by the colorblind person is distorted. What he sees, and the actual color of the sky (“truth”), are different.
 
No…because the color of the sky as seen by the colorblind person is distorted. What he sees, and the actual color of the sky (“truth”), are different.
Wait a minute, dixieagle: what do you mean by “the actual color of the sky”? Actual according to whose meterological perspective? According to whose neurological experience? From what altitude, or latitude, or degree of atmospheric moisture? Does “actual color of the sky” have a fixed meaning?
 
Wait a minute, dixieagle: what do you mean by “the actual color of the sky”? Actual according to whose meterological perspective? According to whose neurological experience? From what altitude, or latitude, or degree of atmospheric moisture? Does “actual color of the sky” have a fixed meaning?
Of course, depending upon the time of day, whether one is looking at the horizon or not, atmospheric conditions, etc., the sky - typically blue on a clear, sunny day due to the scattering of light - could be any one of a number of colors, or many. A person with normal vision, not wearing sunglasses, and with no color blindness will see that typical blue sky; the color blind person next to him may well think that the sky is green. (Lord knows I’m not a scientist…just related to one!)
 
Of course, depending upon the time of day, whether one is looking at the horizon or not, atmospheric conditions, etc., the sky - typically blue on a clear, sunny day due to the scattering of light - could be any one of a number of colors, or many. A person with normal vision, not wearing sunglasses, and with no color blindness will see that typical blue sky; the color blind person next to him may well think that the sky is green. (Lord knows I’m not a scientist…just related to one!)
But what about a dog, or a bee, or any number of other creatures which have different colour perceptions than us? Some have more, seeing parts of the light spectrum that we cannot detect visually.

All of which ties into the question, what is colour, and ultimately what is sense perception, and to what extent is it shaped by the facilities we have to sense with and the way we process that raw data.
 
The study of evolution (" a process that results in heritable changes in a population spread over many generations" - Douglas Futuyma, Evolutionary Biology) is still in its infancy, and wondrous discoveries are always being made. These discoveries help flesh out the picture and add to the body of knowledge; they don’t contradict the basic theory.
The Futuyama quote does not prove anything. Gills to lungs is a bit of a stretch. I’m reminded of the loud and confident cries of Junk DNA. In the junk, we were told, would be traces of man’s genetic past. Baloney. The junk (non-coding regions) turns out to be useful right now.

Have you read about the changes in the chemical composition of earth’s oceans over supposedly millions of years? Yet we have the coelocanth alive today.

I viewed a close up photo of an insect supposedly millions of years old trapped in amber. It looked exactly like its modern counterparts with legs and wings.

Regardless of the method, when evolution is the only allowable explanatory filter, anomolies are ignored. On occasion, we are told that whatever it is, it doesn’t mean anything fundamental has changed. I think that’s inaccurate regarding the link between dinosaurs and birds.

You also cannot disconnect the current uses of the theory beyong what science can actually demonstrate. That’s why you’re seeing Man Created God on the sides of buses.

Peace,
Ed
 
You also cannot disconnect the current uses of the theory beyong what science can actually demonstrate. That’s why you’re seeing Man Created God on the sides of buses.

Peace,
Ed
Ed, I think that you’re so upset about some scientists who also happen to be agnostics/atheists that you throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak. Dawkins et al are so far off the mark with regard to God that you want to retaliate by giving science as little respect as they give God.

God doesn’t really need Dawkins on His side.
 
No…because the color of the sky as seen by the colorblind person is distorted. What he sees, and the actual color of the sky (“truth”), are different.
Why isn’t the non-colorblinded person’s view of the sky not the distorted one? Color is just an interpretation of the photons hitting your eyes - the same exact photons are hitting both people’s eyes. You only claim there is a true color there because you have preconceived notions about how it should look.

Check out this picture:

http://brainyworld.com/wp-content/uploads/oldoryoung.gif

Do you see an old woman or a young woman? Depending on what you expected to see before hand (those given a clearer picture of one or the other favored that experience in tests) you might see one or the other. Whichever you see, there is not one “truth”, it is simply perspective. This is true of so many things in life.

Not that this has anything to do with the “omg evolution is fake lol” topic, I was just pointing out a claim you made was overstated.
 
Ed, I think that you’re so upset about some scientists who also happen to be agnostics/atheists that you throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak. Dawkins et al are so far off the mark with regard to God that you want to retaliate by giving science as little respect as they give God.

God doesn’t really need Dawkins on His side.
Retaliate? No. Science, today, is operating outside of its limits. It, like all other large, human run institutions, is being manipulated more than ever. It is being corrupted:

hup.harvard.edu/catalog/MCGBEN.html

Even biology textbooks state conclusions that are far beyong the realm of science to consider or comment on.

Biology textbook
I did a little research and I think we can prove quite easily that mainstream evolution does not support the evidence of intelligent design in nature at all. Evolution is defined as a blind, undirected process built mainly on randomness. There is no plan or purpose for evolution – this contradicts the claim that “everything is designed” and that there is design to be found in nature.

We can see this in current biology textbooks:

“[E]volution works without either plan or purpose — Evolution is random and undirected.”
(Biology, by Kenneth R. Miller & Joseph S. Levine (1st ed., Prentice Hall, 1991), pg. 658; (3rd ed., Prentice Hall, 1995), pg. 658; (4th ed., Prentice Hall, 1998), pg. 658; emphasis in original.)

Humans represent just one tiny, largely fortuitous, and late-arising twig on the enormously arborescent bush of life.”
(Stephen J Gould quoted in Biology, by Peter H Raven & George B Johnson (5th ed., McGraw Hill, 1999), pg 15; (6th ed., McGraw Hill, 2000), pg. 16.)

“By coupling **undirected, purposeless **variation to the **blind, uncaring **process of natural selection, Darwin made theological or spiritual explanations of the life processes superfluous.”
(Evolutionary Biology, by Douglas J. Futuyma (3rd ed., Sinauer Associates Inc., 1998), p. 5.)

“Darwin knew that accepting his theory required believing in philosophical materialism, the conviction that **matter is the stuff of all existence **and that all mental and spiritual phenomena are its by-products. Darwinian evolution was not only purposeless but also heartless–a process in which the rigors of nature ruthlessly eliminate the unfit. Suddenly, humanity was reduced to just one more species in a world that cared nothing for us. The great human mind was no more than a mass of evolving neurons. Worst of all, there was no divine plan to guide us.”
(Biology: Discovering Life by Joseph S. Levine & Kenneth R. Miller (1st ed., D.C. Heath and Co., 1992), pg. 152; (2nd ed… D.C. Heath and Co., 1994), p. 161; emphases in original.)

“Adopting this view of the world means accepting not only the processes of evolution, but also the view that the living world is constantly evolving, and that evolutionary change occurs without any goals.’ The idea that **evolution is not directed **towards a final goal state has been more difficult for many people to accept than the process of evolution itself.”
(Life: The Science of Biology by William K. Purves, David Sadava, Gordon H. Orians, & H. Craig Keller, (6th ed., Sinauer; W.H. Freeman and Co., 2001), pg. 3.)

“The ‘blind’ watchmaker is natural selection. **Natural selection is totally blind **to the future. “**Humans are fundamentally not exceptional **because we came from the same evolutionary source as every other species. It is natural selection of selfish genes that has given us our bodies and brains “Natural selection is a bewilderingly simple idea. And yet what it explains is the whole of life, the diversity of life, the apparent design of life.”
(Richard Dawkins quoted in *Biology *by Neil A. Campbell, Jane B. Reese. & Lawrence G. Mitchell (5th ed., Addison Wesley Longman, 1999), pgs. 412-413.)

“Of course, no species has 'chosen’ a strategy. Rather, its ancestors ‘little by little, generation after generation’ merely wandered into a successful way of life through the action of random evolutionary forces. Once pointed in a certain direction, a line of evolution survives only if the cosmic dice continues to roll in its favor. “[J]ust by chance, a wonderful diversity of life has developed during the billions of years in which organisms have been evolving on earth.
(Biology by Burton S. Guttman (1st ed., McGraw Hill, 1999), pgs. 36-37.)

“It is difficult to avoid the speculation that Darwin, as has been the case with others, found the implications of his theory difficult to confront. “The real difficulty in accepting Darwins theory has always been that it seems to diminish our significance. Earlier, astronomy had made it clear that the earth is not the center of the solar universe, or even of our own solar system. Now the new biology asked us to accept the proposition that, like all other organisms, we too are the products of a random process that, as far as science can show, we are not created for any special purpose or as part of any universal design.”
(Invitation to Biology, by Helena Curtis & N. Sue Barnes(3rd ed., Worth, 1981), pgs. 474-475.)

So the bathwater with the baby is dirty. It needs a rinse from the heavy amount of materialism that covers what little science there is.

Evolution, for all intents and purposes, is not that important, but if you read the posts here, it is regarded as a necessary article of faith, or at least it’s marketed that way. Do you know the book titled Chance or Purpose? Any idea what the Church believes? Now contrast that to the self-generating, self-starting engine called evolution that “made” man in a cold, uncaring universe that did not have him in mind. And let’s not forget those wonderful billboards: “Praise Darwin! Evolve beyond belief.” That is step two of the marketing plan. God? Pfft! Who needs that? We’ll worship the mind of man.

Peace,
Ed
 
Why isn’t the non-colorblinded person’s view of the sky not the distorted one? Color is just an interpretation of the photons hitting your eyes - the same exact photons are hitting both people’s eyes. You only claim there is a true color there because you have preconceived notions about how it should look.

Check out this picture:

http://brainyworld.com/wp-content/uploads/oldoryoung.gif

Do you see an old woman or a young woman? Depending on what you expected to see before hand (those given a clearer picture of one or the other favored that experience in tests) you might see one or the other. Whichever you see, there is not one “truth”, it is simply perspective. This is true of so many things in life.

Not that this has anything to do with the “omg evolution is fake lol” topic, I was just pointing out a claim you made was overstated.
I’ll just go on believing that - on a typical sunny day - the sky is (or perhaps I should say “appears”, due to the scattering of light) blue, based on what I learned in science class many years ago.

You’re right…it has less than nothing to do with the topic. (Now, the “truth is subjective” thing would open an entire other can of worms, which evolved from…) 😉
 
Aww… I hate when that happens! At least it’s not IE? 😉
my internet explorer isn’t very well right now… that’s what I get for allowing it to automatically update itself!
No. Geomorphology does indeed lend to an old earth, but is only accurate back to certain ages due to the changing of the continents. Also, the oldest rocks on Earth are only about 3.5 billion years old due to the recycling of the rocks in the mantle too and from the crust (the oldest I believe are found in Greenland and Australia IIRC). However, it’s still evidence of a very very old earth, even if it doesn’t match exactly with the 4.5 billion years that we measure in multiple asteroids using multiple techniques.
Thing is, geomorphology seems like very much of an excuse to reinterpret the data anyway you like… I’m still pretty suspect of the whole age thing, as well - all of this is still only as true as the theory, and, yet again, involves another (reasonably big) assumption along the way… and geomorphology seems like the kind of ‘excuse’ science likes to use every so often to fiddle results to fit…:rolleyes:

The funny thing is, sometimes it can be obscure where such unquantifiable variables enter the scheme of dating… for example, if you have something expected to be old somewhere expected to be new, the talkorigins site indicates you then pretty much look for reasons to figure out possibilities as to how it got there and is still old (and, er, vice versa) - I wonder whether the ‘corrected’ data is then taken as the normative geological date, even though it’s modified to accomodate evolutionary assumptions?
I don’t know why “well preserved” fossils would date differently honestly. A more interesting question would be if they date differently than the rock around them. I’m not familiar with the specifics of such data though, so I can’t really say.
That’s the funny thing though, isn’t it? Interestingly, the Smithsonian article doesn’t appear to make any contradictions of the idea that it all seems a bit unlikely for blood (or whatever) to still be there - but, yes, this matches my original skepticism regarding the appeal to other fossil evidence, ignoring the fact that this seems not so much to strengthen the evidence of extreme age of this fossil as to question the age of a whole lot more… if there was a reasonable argument that this regularly happens doesn’t appear disharmonious with evolutionary theory, I’d expect it to appear somewhere here, but all you get is an “I’m a Christian, and I love dinosaurs - quit questioning science!”

Dodgy…🤷
Glad you liked the one video. Haha, I warned you the other guy was dry. I’m afraid those are the only youtube videos I’ve watched on the subject though, as I generally don’t like that method of knowledge transfer, so I can’t recommend any others. The one book I can recommend that I think you’d honestly like is this one (really good read actually):

amazon.com/Short-History-Nearly-Everything/dp/0767908171

It goes through the history of just about every physical science, explaining how we know what we know.
I got out a book about dating methods - the sheer number of methods used, and the acknowledged unreliability of all of them, again, excacerbates by skepticism… and yes, this is an ‘evolutionist’ (i.e. orthodox) textbook…

Not sure whether to get a whole book on geomorphology… oh, I can see why I didn’t do a science degree:yawn:… this is worse than going to work!

Oh, and the “dinosaurs are birds, actually no they’re not - but they’re probably distant cousins” bit is a bit like saying all black holes came from the same original black hole, because, like, where else would they come from? 🤷
 
Ed, Liquidpele, I wish I had enough time to look through all this stuff thoroughly… :coffeeread:

Just to throw in a dodgy creationist site - I’d love to see how much truth there is in this claim about the flying Matterhorn, and check out the ‘evolution’ of it’s dating…

I’ll find the footprints in river argument and unconvincing refutation again at some point…👍 I think the former was on a dodgy Islamic site called Darwin refuted or something, the latter in an orthodox academic work (possibly The creation/evolution controversy : a battle for cultural power / Kary Doyle Smout)
 
If you look at some of the folding in mountains, it is obvious the material would have to have been molten to fold without cracking.

Peace,
Ed
 
Ed, Liquidpele, I wish I had enough time to look through all this stuff thoroughly… :coffeeread:

Just to throw in a dodgy creationist site - I’d love to see how much truth there is in this claim about the flying Matterhorn, and check out the ‘evolution’ of it’s dating…

I’ll find the footprints in river argument and unconvincing refutation again at some point…👍 I think the former was on a dodgy Islamic site called Darwin refuted or something, the latter in an orthodox academic work (possibly The creation/evolution controversy : a battle for cultural power / Kary Doyle Smout)
Oh don’t worry about it. As I say to a lot of people - if you’re sure without a doubt that you’re right, it’s just a sign that you missed something 😉 Just keep in mind that you wouldn’t listen to a psychic to get medical knowledge, so don’t get scientific advice from a creationist without proper credentials. And with that, I’ll leave this thread alone. Later guys! :cool:
 
If you look at some of the folding in mountains, it is obvious the material would have to have been molten to fold without cracking.
Not necessarily molten, just hot enough to be plastic. If you try to bend a cold wax candle you will crack it, but if you warm wax enough then you can bend it without it being molten and without cracking. Rock will act similarly at the right temperature - plastic but not molten.

rossum
 
Of course, depending upon the time of day, whether one is looking at the horizon or not, atmospheric conditions, etc., the sky - typically blue on a clear, sunny day due to the scattering of light - could be any one of a number of colors, or many. A person with normal vision, not wearing sunglasses, and with no color blindness will see that typical blue sky; the color blind person next to him may well think that the sky is green. (Lord knows I’m not a scientist…just related to one!)
The sky looks blacker from 18,700 feet than it does from sea level.
 
Oh don’t worry about it. As I say to a lot of people - if you’re sure without a doubt that you’re right, it’s just a sign that you missed something 😉 Just keep in mind that you wouldn’t listen to a psychic to get medical knowledge, so don’t get scientific advice from a creationist without proper credentials. And with that, I’ll leave this thread alone. Later guys! :cool:
But that’s the problem - I’m not sure without a doubt! It’s more suspicion of a scientific orthodoxy that says it *is * sure without a doubt that’s driving me on this one… my agnosticism regarding the technicalities of creation are what I’m considering here…

Thing is, I’m beginning to wonder whether there’s much difference between doctors and psychics, given the psychological and ideological elements which seem to be making inroads into medical practice (in the UK at least) 🙂 - but that’s a concern for another thread, or possibly not at all…

Just found out that apparently St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas and William of Occam all held various proto-evolutionist theories… or at least proto-adaptative ideas. Which means at various points, the Church has probably shifted from 1 extreme to another, at various points in the past (not unlike science, ultimately), although seems to have rather sensibly stuck to concerning itself with the spiritual implications recently, which, in the end is the most important thing, I think :gopray:

Anyway, I now have 2 rather dense textbooks I’m trying to make sense of regarding the age of the Earth and radiometric testing, geomorphology et al… I’ll try and hold off until I manage to understand those to a greater degree (which knowing me, may well be never :rolleyes:!), since they’re the only elements I think can realistically be held to represent particularly ‘strong cases for evolution’

One last parting shot for doubt, this one from a Hare Krishnan, I think! Sticking with a long age, but against evolution, he seems to refer to a vast mountain of published evidence, apparently referring to anomalous fossil findings dating (according to contemporary measurements) millions of years old. The primary argument against him, is that none of these fossils remain to be tested! Which is a bit odd - whether millions of years old, a more conservative estimate still places many of them at tens of thousands of years old, which make you wonder why they’ve not been kept and carefully preserved! All very X-files, of course…

Must stop! Must stop! I will read the mainstream stuff… I will! I will…

Anyway, cheers! 👋
 
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