Catholic vs. Protestant John 3:16?

[unworthysinner]

salmon:

What you fail to confront is the point emphasized continually in scripture that we can turn our backs to God and His promises. We can forfeit His gift and lose our inheritance.

I agree with you 100%. The difference is those are either people who have heard the Gospel and rejected it outright. Or false converts who endure for a time. The parable of the sower deals with this very issue. The answer of how someone can have a profession of faith at one point then fall away into unbelief. The answer is here…
Mark 4:
14The sower soweth the word.15And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.16And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;17And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word’s sake, immediately** they are offended**. 18And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,19And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lustsb of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh** unfruitful**. 20And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear** the word,** and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.

 

[unworthysinner]

salmon:

Take a look at the parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15: 11-32).

We, too, can squander our inheritance.

Luke 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was DEAD, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

He was lost, he was dead, he was that way the whole parable until he realized he was lost and came to be found by the Father. He didn’t get lost during the parable he always was.

I agree we can be careless with what has been given us. The “good news” of eternal life. Once saved, we cannot be unsaved. If we continue in sin God will chastise us, even end our life early. But eternal life is eternal. Its not a light switch that flips on and off in heaven(or in the Book of Life). If we are mediocare Christians then we will lose our reward(crown in heaven) but not our salvation.

May God bless the reading of His Word.

 

[Salmon]

unworthysinner:

You don’t fully realize my point or the power of God. It is God that saves, he will not unsave someone. I am saved by the power of God, even I can’t make myself unsaved. The Catholic Church does not agree with me and in fact salvation is never a sure thing to a Catholic.

I do not comprehend, much less understand the power of God. I do, however, understand scripture when it says:

2 Timothy 2:12

If we disown him, he will also disown us.

You say that God will not unsave someone, but Paul says that someone can disown themselves and merit God’s justice. Who should I believe? You or Paul?

Nor was it a sure thing to Paul. Paul considered the possibility that he himself might end up unsaved as a “castaway”.(See above reference to 1 Cor 9:27.

Unworthysinner:

At any moment one could commit an unrepented sin and die before the Sacrament of confession. That is not eternal life.

You make it sound like accidentally stepping into an unnoticed puddle or something. Yes, the possibility that I would totally reject God’s love exists. I could possibly choose to turn my back on God’s gifts and choose the wider path, but if I do, I then expect Him to be perfectly just in judgment of me and judge me guilty as He has promised in scripture.

Your objection brings to mind a passage cited earlier::
Eze 18:24

But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

unworthysinner:

I am saved by the power of God, even I can’t make myself unsaved.

Scripture says we can:
2 Timothy 2:12

If we disown him, he will also disown us.

When Paul told his audience that they, too might be “cut off” (Rom. 11:22), you must consider who made up his audience. Were they believers… or were they unbelievers? They were the believers in the church at Rome, of course. You say that believers are guaranteed eternal life, but Paul disagrees strongly. Who should we believe has the Truth?

Regarding the Prodigal Son:

unworthysinner:

He was lost, he was dead, he was that way the whole parable until he realized he was lost and came to be found by the Father. He didn’t get lost during the parable he always was.

The son was dead the whole parable, but he was NOT dead his whole life. The son was the son from the moment of his birth. He was the rightful and legal heir of his inheritance from the moment of his birth.

It was not until sometime AFTER his birth, he turned his back on his father and life with him. The son was not ALWAYS dead…he became that way after some time after his legal status as “son” was established.

I agree we can be careless with what has been given us.

Not only can we be careless with what has been given to us, we can be cut off from the gift that is offered. Check out those passages from Paul cited earlier.

unworthysinner:

Once saved, we cannot be unsaved.

Again: 2 Timothy 2:12

If we disown him, he will also disown us.

I applaud your bravado, but scripture says clearly that we are not even qualified to judge ourselves. You judge yourself as “saved”, but Paul says:

1 Cor 11: 31But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment.

We would all judge ourselves as justified if we were our own judges, but we are not our own judges.

I don’t mean to overwhelm you, but scripture is abundantly clear on this point.

Peace in Christ…Salmon

 

[unworthysinner]

Salmon:

I do not comprehend, much less understand the power of God. I do, however, understand scripture when it says:

2 Timothy 2:12
Who should I believe? You or Paul?

2 Timothy 2:

8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel: 9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound. 10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect’s sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead ***with ***him, we shall also ***live with ***him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. 15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Paul is saying in verse 12 that if we be dead with him(he uses the same phrase in Romans), then we will reign. Those that reject him are unbelievers, they are not Christians. They never were. Jesus says…
Mathew 10:
32 Whosoever therefore shall confess** me** before men, him will I confess** also** before my Father which is in heaven. 33 But whosoever shall deny** me** before** men**, him will I also** deny** before my Father which is in heaven.

Salmon:

Nor was it a sure thing to Paul. Paul considered the possibility that he himself might end up unsaved as a “castaway”.(See above reference to 1 Cor 9:27.

This one is easy. Paul is saying that once he would preach the Gospel. If he were to do something to hurt his testimony, the word castaway means disqualified as in a race. Paul made comparisons of the Christian life to a race. Paul didn’t want to be an ineffective witness after preaching the Gospel and become a castaway(or useless). Not unsaved. Tell me where does the Bible tell us we go from eternal life to eternal death?
I can reference the ones that speak of presently in this world going from death to life: You would be heard pressed to find clear verses that tell of someone truly being saved and then being condemned. Read the whole chapter of Romans 8
John 5:24 Romans 6:23 I John 3:14

Salmon:

Your objection brings to mind a passage cited earlier::
Eze 18:24

Re-read your passage the context is termporal life not eternal life.

 

[Salmon]

unworthysinner:

Paul is saying in verse 12 that if we be dead with him(he uses the same phrase in Romans), then we will reign. Those that reject him are unbelievers, they are not Christians. They never were.

Scripture does not say that they were never Christian.

unworthysinner:

Tell me where does the Bible tell us we go from eternal life to eternal death?
I can reference the ones that speak of presently in this world going from death to life: You would be heard pressed to find clear verses that tell of someone truly being saved and then being condemned.

Please re-examine the previous post that showed that the Prodigal Son had the LEGAL position of sonship and inheritor of the father. He lost it AFTER his position had been established as such.

In addition, you were given at least two passages earlier that address this:
Heb 10:26-27

26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

and
Heb 6:4-6

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

unworthysinner:

This one is easy. Paul is saying that once he would preach the Gospel. If he were to do something to hurt his testimony, the word castaway means disqualified as in a race. Paul made comparisons of the Christian life to a race. Paul didn’t want to be an ineffective witness after preaching the Gospel and become a castaway(or useless). Not unsaved.

What is the fate of “useless” or “unworthy” servants in the New Testament?

Some examples:

Matt 18: 34And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

Matt 24: 50The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:30
And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

unworthysinner:

Re-read your passage the context is termporal life not eternal life.

OK, let’s take a look:
Ez 18:24

But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Do you think that to die in one’s sins has only a ** temporal ** consequence?

You cited 2 Tim 2 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him

Now you are saying that to be dead in sin (not in Christ) has only a ** temporal ** consequence. You can’t have it both ways.

Peace in Christ…Salmon

 

[unworthysinner]

**

**John 3:16 is used by non-Catholic Christians to support their arguments, which differs from Catholicism, that is: **

• Once saved always saved.
• Saved by grace/faith alone. Not by works.
• Once you have been save, your name will be forever written in the “Book of Life”.

1 John 5:1-21:
1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is begotten by God, and everyone who loves the father loves (also) the one begotten by him.2 In this way we know that we love the children of God when we love God and obey his commandments.3 For the love of God is this, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome,4 for whoever is begotten by God conquers the world. And the victory that conquers the world is our faith.5 Who (indeed) is the victor over the world but the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?6 This is the one who came through water and blood, Jesus Christ, not by water alone, but by water and blood. The Spirit is the one that testifies, and the Spirit is truth.7 So there are three that testify,8 the Spirit, the water, and the blood, and the three are of one accord.9 If we accept human testimony, the testimony of God is surely greater. Now the testimony of God is this, that he has testified on behalf of his Son.10 Whoever believes in the Son of God has this testimony within himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar by not believing the testimony God has given about his Son.11 And this is the testimony: God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.12 Whoever possesses the Son has life; whoever does not possess the Son of God does not have life.13 I write these things to you so that you may know that you have eternal life, you who believe in the name of the Son of God.14 And we have this confidence in him, that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us…18 We know that no one begotten by God sins; but the one begotten by God he protects, and the evil one cannot touch him.19 We know that we belong to God, and the whole world is under the power of the evil one.20 We also know that the Son of God has come and has given us discernment to know the one who is true. And we are in the one who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
Salvation cannot be taken away, John says we cannot sin because we are begotten of God, so once saved always saved. Many scripture proves the fact that salvation is by grace through faith and not by works. Note that the ones begotten by God did not get baptized, confirmed, penanced, holy ordered, married, eucharisted, etc. They believed in the same way Abraham believed in the OT and it was accounted him for righteousness. But but but what about this…
James 2:21-24:

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.”24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Abraham proved his faith that was already there by his trusting God and offering up his only son. If Abraham would have denied God his faith would not have been true. So in a nutshell Faith without works is dead(false faith). But works do not save, faith in God’s Son saves. Works will come after faith and salvation.

As far as being written out of the book of life, it will never happen if we are begotten of God. The Roman system says you cannot know you have eternal life in this world. John 5:13 says he wrote the book so you would know you have eternal life now. If you don’t believe that you make God a liar.
**

 

[Salmon]

unworthysinner:

1 John 5:1-21
1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is begotten by God, and everyone who loves the father loves (also) the one begotten by him.2 In this way we know that we love the children of God when we love God and obey his commandments.3 For the love of God is this, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome,4 for whoever is begotten by God conquers the world. And the victory that conquers the world is our faith.5 Who (indeed) is the victor over the world but the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?6 This is the one who came through water and blood, Jesus Christ, not by water alone, but by water and blood. The Spirit is the one that testifies, and the Spirit is truth.7 So there are three that testify,8 the Spirit, the water, and the blood, and the three are of one accord.9 If we accept human testimony, the testimony of God is surely greater. Now the testimony of God is this, that he has testified on behalf of his Son.10 Whoever believes in the Son of God has this testimony within himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar by not believing the testimony God has given about his Son.11 And this is the testimony: God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.12 Whoever possesses the Son has life; whoever does not possess the Son of God does not have life.13 I write these things to you so that you may know that you have eternal life, you who believe in the name of the Son of God.14 And we have this confidence in him, that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us…18 We know that no one begotten by God sins; but the one begotten by God he protects, and the evil one cannot touch him.19 We know that we belong to God, and the whole world is under the power of the evil one.20 We also know that the Son of God has come and has given us discernment to know the one who is true. And we are in the one who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

You have shown a pronounced aversion to passages of scripture that contradict your arguments.

Now you have taken extreme liberties with passages that make you uncomfortable.

The passage you have cited is NOT 1 John 5 1-21, it is 1 John 5 1-14, 18-20.

Here are the verses that you have snipped out:
1 John 5: 15-17
15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.
16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

Could you explain to us why you took the time to cut these verses out of your citation, since they influence the context and meaning significantly?

Peace in Christ…Salmon

 

[Maurelian]

****
The Roman system says you cannot know you have eternal life in this world. John 5:13 says he wrote the book so you would know you have eternal life now. If you don’t believe that you make God a liar.

This is non sequitur. God is a liar because I don’t believe your interpretation of His Word? It just doesn’t follow.

And I’m curious where you’ve obtained your knowledge (or rather, lack of knowledge) of the “Roman system.” Have you ever read any part of the Catechism? It would go a long way in clearing up many of your misconceptions.

The Catholic church does not say you cannot know you have eternal life. If you die in a state of grace, you can be assured of salvation. What the Church does teach is that simply believing in Jesus is not enough. Even Satan and all the demons of Hell believe Jesus is the savior of the world. Salvation is a gift, given by the grace of God. Nothing any mere human can say, do, or think will merit this gift. Only Jesus, by his sacrifice, has gained any merit. What is necessary, on our part, is to participate in our salvation by first believing that Jesus is the Son of God, offered up for all the sins of the world, and then to live our lives in a Christ-like manner by doing good works.

Make no mistake - good works do nothing whatsoever to earn our way into Heaven. If any catholic has ever told you that, you should tell him to go home and read his catechism. Good works are merely the natural byproduct of faith in God and Jesus. I may have faith enough to move mountains, but if I have no love I am nothing. Works are merely the manifestation of this Christian love anyone who truly believes in Christ has in his heart. Faith is useless without this love, and it is this love that will naturally move one to do good works.

You’re absolutely right when you say works don’t save. The Catholic Church does not disagree at all with that statement. What it does teach is that faith is incomplete, and indeed inadequate without love. And it is this love that moves us to do good works, not some twisted notion that the more good we do, the more “Heaven points” we earn. Salvation is not by works, nor by faith, but by grace and grace alone, given out of the benevolence of God. Works do not earn salvation anymore than faith earns it. It is given to us by grace out of God’s love for us. We do participate in our salvation by faith and works, but neither can earn eternal life. We accept God’s gift by believing, and our faith leads us to follow Christ’s example and to love one another, i.e. do good works. If we do good works but don’t believe, we can’t earn our way to Heaven. If we have faith, but sit idly waiting for the Kingdom of Heaven without ever doing any acts of Christian charity, then that faith is useless.

It is not the works themselves that have any effect on us. It is the love in our hearts that compels us to do the works that is necessary for a living faith. Works don’t equal points with God. Works are merely the Christian love Jesus commanded us all to have coming to life.

 

[unworthysinner]

Salmon:

You have shown a pronounced aversion to passages of scripture that contradict your arguments.

Now you have taken extreme liberties with passages that make you uncomfortable.

The passage you have cited is NOT 1 John 5 1-21, it is 1 John 5 1-14, 18-20.

Here are the verses that you have snipped out:
1 John 5: 15-17
15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.
16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

Could you explain to us why you took the time to cut these verses out of your citation, since they influence the context and meaning significantly?

Peace in Christ…Salmon

Good gosh almighty, you need to take it down a bit. I left out that part of the verse because there is a character limit. Are you telling me John is talking out of both sides of his mouth? Surely for me to be wrong he must be. Peace.

 

[unworthysinner]

Maurelian:

This is non sequitur. God is a liar because I don’t believe your interpretation of His Word? It just doesn’t follow.

And I’m curious where you’ve obtained your knowledge (or rather, lack of knowledge) of the “Roman system.” Have you ever read any part of the Catechism? It would go a long way in clearing up many of your misconceptions.

The Catholic church does not say you cannot know you have eternal life. If you die in a state of grace, you can be assured of salvation. What the Church does teach is that simply believing in Jesus is not enough. Even Satan and all the demons of Hell believe Jesus is the savior of the world. Salvation is a gift, given by the grace of God. Nothing any mere human can say, do, or think will merit this gift. Only Jesus, by his sacrifice, has gained any merit. What is necessary, on our part, is to participate in our salvation by first believing that Jesus is the Son of God, offered up for all the sins of the world, and then to live our lives in a Christ-like manner by doing good works.

Make no mistake - good works do nothing whatsoever to earn our way into Heaven. If any catholic has ever told you that, you should tell him to go home and read his catechism. Good works are merely the natural byproduct of faith in God and Jesus. I may have faith enough to move mountains, but if I have no love I am nothing. Works are merely the manifestation of this Christian love anyone who truly believes in Christ has in his heart. Faith is useless without this love, and it is this love that will naturally move one to do good works.

You’re absolutely right when you say works don’t save. The Catholic Church does not disagree at all with that statement. What it does teach is that faith is incomplete, and indeed inadequate without love. And it is this love that moves us to do good works, not some twisted notion that the more good we do, the more “Heaven points” we earn. Salvation is not by works, nor by faith, but by grace and grace alone, given out of the benevolence of God. Works do not earn salvation anymore than faith earns it. It is given to us by grace out of God’s love for us. We do participate in our salvation by faith and works, but neither can earn eternal life. We accept God’s gift by believing, and our faith leads us to follow Christ’s example and to love one another, i.e. do good works. If we do good works but don’t believe, we can’t earn our way to Heaven. If we have faith, but sit idly waiting for the Kingdom of Heaven without ever doing any acts of Christian charity, then that faith is useless.

It is not the works themselves that have any effect on us. It is the love in our hearts that compels us to do the works that is necessary for a living faith. Works don’t equal points with God. Works are merely the Christian love Jesus commanded us all to have coming to life.

So then any true believer has full assurance of salvation here and now. As you say correctly salvation is by grace from God, it is a gift. Cannot be earned or merited, nor can it be kept or lost by our works. Peter says we are “kept by the power of God”. The Gospels and Ephesians tell us believers are held by the Father and Christ and sealed with the Holy Spirit. So the whole point of this post is Can you lose your salvation?
Well if God saves you…no, he will also keep you(and bring out good works for His glory, not ours)
If you think you saved you…of course you can turn your back on God, you never truly believed.

I can have the same discussion with Charasmatic people, are you telling me their interpretation is correct? Paul says nothing can seperate us from the love of God IN Christ Jesus(Romans 8). Got eternal life? I do. Gonna fear losing it? I won’t.

 

[Church_Militant]

Unworthy-
Then what about this passage?Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries. 28 A man making void the law of Moses, dieth without any mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 How much more, do you think he deserveth worse punishments, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath esteemed the blood of the testament unclean, by which he was sanctified, and hath offered an affront to the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said: Vengeance belongeth to me, and I will repay. And again: The Lord shall judge his people.31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Does this not say that one can certainly throw away one’s salvation by wilfully sinning?

I personally don’t think that God wants us to be so “secure” in our salvation that we take our spiritual life lightly or for granted. I know from my readings of both the NT and the Early Church Fathers that they took that very seriously. Hence even guys like Constantine went out of their way to insure that he did not have time to sin gravely before he went into eternity. The whole concept of confession of sins was not really even understood until much later and so many early believers waited until they were on their deathbed to be baptized. Constantine is a prize-winning example even though his mother Helena raised him as a Christian. (This is another good case for the fact that Christian doctrine does indeed develope over time. Something we should all understand from Acts of the Apostles anyway…)

Eternal security is a bad…unBiblical teaching…one that really doesn’t matter to those of us who know in whom we have believed.
Pax vobiscum,

 

[unworthysinner]

Church Militant:
Unworthy-
Then what about this passage?Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries.

Does this not say that one can certainly throw away one’s salvation by wilfully sinning?..Eternal security is a bad…unBiblical teaching…one that really doesn’t matter to those of us who know in whom we have believed.

Hebrews 10:26-29 warns against the sin of apostasy. Apostasy is an intentional falling away or defection. Apostates are those who move toward Christ, hear and understand the Gospel, and are on the verge of saving faith, but then rebel and turn away. Willful sinning in this passage carries the idea of consciously and deliberately rejecting Christ. The apostate has knowledge, but no application of that knowledge. Judas Iscariot is the perfect example – he had knowledge but he lacked true faith. The apostate is then beyond salvation because he has rejected the one true sacrifice for sins: the Lord Jesus Christ. To turn away from Him leaves you no true alternative. This passage is not speaking of a believer who falls away, but rather someone who may claim to be a believer, but truly is not. Anyone who apostatizes is proving they never had genuine faith to begin with (1 John 2:19).

As far as eternal security being an “unbiblical” teaching you are surely confused. I’m confused about your last statement, because if your faith is in Christ alone then you have that very biblical and very eternal security written for us in the Word of God…

The Lord Jesus Christ proclaimed, “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand” (John 10:28-29b). Both Jesus and the Father have us firmly grasped in their hand. Who could possibly separate us from the grip of both the Father and the Son?

Ephesians 4:30 tells us that believers are “sealed(past tense) for the day of redemption.” If believers were not have eternal security, the sealing could not truly be unto the day of redemption, but only to the day of sinning, apostasy, or disbelief. John 3:15-16 tells us that whoever believes in Jesus Christ will “have eternal life.” If a person were to be promised eternal life, but then have it taken away, it was never “eternal” to begin with. If eternal security is not true, the promises of eternal life in the Bible would be in error.

The most powerful argument for eternal security is Romans 8:38-39, “For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Our eternal security is based on God’s love for those whom He has redeemed. Our eternal security is purchased by Christ, promised by the Father, and sealed by the Holy Spirit.

Eternal Security: The RCC teaches that one CANNOT know for certain that he is saved and on his way to heaven. 1 John 5:13 states that the letter of 1 John was written just so that one would know for certain that he is saved.

Confession: The RCC teaches that unless we are hindered from doing so by some means beyond our control, the only way to have our sins forgiven is by confessing them to a priest. Contrary to this, scripture teaches that we can confess our sins to God for forgiveness (1 John 1:9) and to also confess our sins one to another so that we can be strengthened in our battle against sin (James 5:16). The RCC uses certain statements of Christ to His disciples to support their practice.

 

[Church_Militant]

unworthysinner

You’re good with copy and paste arguments…I’ll give you that. It’s too bad that those authors have no more knowlege of actual catholic teaching than they do…

I cannot believe that you yourself show so little sensitivity to Catholics feelings that you come in and maintain your attack on the day that our Pope is near to death. This is like one of us coming into your home and berating your religion while a family member is dying. As a result I will not answer your posts today. You really oughtta rethink your concept of Christian charity before ya come back on here…

 

[Pax]

unworthysinner:

Hebrews 10:26-29 warns against the sin of apostasy. Apostasy is an intentional falling away or defection. Apostates are those who move toward Christ, hear and understand the Gospel, and are on the verge of saving faith, but then rebel and turn away. Willful sinning in this passage carries the idea of consciously and deliberately rejecting Christ. The apostate has knowledge, but no application of that knowledge. Judas Iscariot is the perfect example – he had knowledge but he lacked true faith. The apostate is then beyond salvation because he has rejected the one true sacrifice for sins: the Lord Jesus Christ. To turn away from Him leaves you no true alternative. This passage is not speaking of a believer who falls away, but rather someone who may claim to be a believer, but truly is not. Anyone who apostatizes is proving they never had genuine faith to begin with (1 John 2:19).or the day of redemption." QUOTE]

unworthysinner,

Please show me in scripture where it indicates that someone in apostasy did not have true faith to begin with. Please show me in scripture where it says Judas did not have true faith. Please show me in scripture where any of your attempted refutations using this argument can be found.

I’ll save you some time. It isn’t in scripture; it is only contained within the confines of your imaginary doctrine of eternal security.

Try looking at Hebrews 6:4-6 where it says, “For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt.” I have placed in bold the portions of this passage that make it clear that the apostates herein described were Christians. You do not become a partaker of the Holy Spirit without being a Christian. These people had true faith but cannot be “restored again” to repentance. The passage would not use the term restored again unless they had previously been in the state of repentance which is a requirement of justification.

I would also refer you to Hebrews 10:26-29 that says, " For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries.
A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?" Notice that the the sinner will face a fearful prospect of judgment and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries of God. These sinners were sanctified and they have outraged the Spirit of grace. The sanctified are those that have been justified in Christ Jesus.

Your arguments are based on eisegesis and not exegesis. There is no such thing as eternal security as you describe it.

 

[unworthysinner]

Church Militant:

unworthysinner

You’re good with copy and paste arguments…I’ll give you that. It’s too bad that those authors have no more knowlege of actual catholic teaching than they do…

I cannot believe that you yourself show so little sensitivity to Catholics feelings that you come in and maintain your attack on the day that our Pope is near to death. This is like one of us coming into your home and berating your religion while a family member is dying. As a result I will not answer your posts today. You really oughtta rethink your concept of Christian charity before ya come back on here…

First of all, What knowledge am I missing? Also the part I cut and paste is from someone that was a Catholic. My father and mother were both Catholic but they were saved when I was a young baby. Incidently I was baptized into the Catholic church as an infant.

Second, I have not said one word about John Paul II. Everytime I’ve seen him the last few years I feel sorry for him. I wish that he was not struck with ailments such as parkinsons, etc. My posts have nothing to do with his health or lack thereof. It is the Catholic system of salvation that is the issue here. Not the current pope. Unfortunately, for the pope in Catholism even he is not guaranteed eternal life. I pray that he is trusting IN Christ for his salvation, but it may be both Christ and Mary, or just Mary that he hopes will save him. I don’t know the man’s heart, that is just what he is reported as saying. When tragedy comes it gives us an opportunity to re-examine how we will handle approaching death. May John Paul II trust in Christ alone for salvation. Every knee shall bow, every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

 

[unworthysinner]

Pax:

I’ll save you some time. It isn’t in scripture; it is only contained within the confines of your imaginary doctrine of eternal security.

My, my what a tone. Are you so offended by even the idea of eternal security? How about the imaginary doctrine of purgatory, Mary Co-redemptrix(soon to be part of the trinity), Peter as pope, tradition equal to the Word of God. Those my friend are not in the Bible, you will not find even the slightest hint of such doctrines, but you follow them anyway.

The Bible is full of examples of eternal security, you choose not to heed them. I have given many such examples but have been flatly ignored. The entire book of I John was written so that anyone who cares to find out if they can be sure of eternal life can KNOW for sure that they have it. If you really want to see the facts of eternal security read on, if not that is your choice.

*The promise of eternal security: *“And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand” (John 10:28, 29).

The context of the promise. John 10 continued to build on the analogy of sheep and shepherds that has such deep roots in the Old Testament

Understanding the promise. Jesus spoke here of those who are His own “sheep.” They *have been *given eternal life, and “they shall never perish.”

This is a blanket, unconditional promise. It is made even stronger by a series of additional remarks:

"neither shall anyone snatch them”;
“out of My hand”;
"the Father “has given them to Me”;
“no one is able to snatch them”;
“out of His hand.”

The idea of “eternal security” bothers some Christians. They are concerned that if believers know their salvation is guaranteed, they will have no motivation to live holy lives. Jesus did not deal with this concern in this passage. But Jesus did teach eternal security when He said that His own have been given eternal life and “they shall never perish.”

This is an unconditional promise: a commitment made by Jesus. Its certainty is underscored by Christ’s additional remarks. Those whom Jesus has given eternal life shall never perish because they are in His hand and the Father’s hand. Believers are the Father’s gift to Jesus—and once given, God’s gifts are not taken back (Rom. 11:29). Finally, salvation is guaranteed by both the Son and the Father, and no one is strong enough to tear a believer from their grip.

This series of grand affirmations reminds us that salvation is God’s work from first to last. We are saved on the basis of what Jesus did for us at Calvary. Nothing we have done contributed to our salvation. Nothing we do can maintain us in a saved state. All depends on Jesus’ sacrifice for us. Nothing depends on what we do for God.
This is not a promise that we claim, but one in which we are to find rest. Jesus has promised those whom He has given eternal life that “they shall never perish.” As we took God at His word concerning His offer of salvation, so we are to take Him at His word concerning His promise of preservation.

Those who are uncomfortable with the concept of eternal security argue that this verse says nothing about the believer *taking himself *out of God’s hand! They suggest that while no one else can put our salvation in jeopardy, we ourselves may.

But this argument ignores the original promise: “they shall never perish.” *Never *remains *never, *and no argument based on what Jesus did *not *say can change that fact.

But what of the concern that underlies the hesitation of some to rest in Jesus’ promise of eternal security? The concern arises from confusing the basis of salvation with motivation for holy living. We are saved because of Jesus’ work on the Cross, from first to last. Nothing we do can add to or subtract from the efficacy of Jesus’ self-sacrifice.

When we come to the crucified Christ and recognize His overwhelming love, God’s Spirit begins to create a love response in our own hearts. As John wrote in another place, “We love Him because He first loved us” (1 John 4:19). The motivation to live a holy life is not fear that we may lose our salvation, but love for the one who has saved us at such a cost.

How then are we to respond to the promise of eternal security? With awed amazement at the love of God. And with a love for Him which moves us to please the Lord in all we do.

 

[unworthysinner]

Pax:

Try looking at Hebrews 6:4-6

If it truly says that believers can lose their salvation, then it is also saying that “ex-believers” can NEVER regain their salvation, “it is impossible…if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance.” To my knowledge, everyone who teaches that salvation can be lost also believes that salvation can be regained. But, if Hebrews 6:4-6 is used to prove loss of salvation, then it also proves that salvation lost can never be regained.

So, what do I think Hebrews 6:4-6 is saying? I believe it is presenting a “hypothetical” situation. It is saying that if a true believer were to fall away (which 1 John 2:19 says is impossible) then there would be no other way of salvation, because there is no other way (John 14:6; Acts 4:12). If believers were to reject Christ (which is impossible) they could never come back because “to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace” (Hebrews 6:6).

Pax:

I would also refer you to Hebrews 10:26-29 that says,

See I John 2:19 Pick your version they all say if anyone turns their back on Christ, they were never His to begin with.

KJV
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

NAB
19 They went out from us, but they were not really of our number; if they had been, they would have remained with us. Their desertion shows that none of them was of our number.

NKJV
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us

NRSV
19 They went out from us, but they did not belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But by going out they made it plain that none of them belongs to us.

RSV
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us.

 

[unworthysinner]

Pax:

A man who has violated the** law of Moses** dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?

This chapter must be missing from your Bible…

Hebrews 8:1-13 (KJV)

1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is** the sum**: We have such an high priest, who is set

set where? On the altar before thousands of Catholic priests? Absolutely NOT. No he’s…

on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; 2 A minister of the sanctuarya, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. 3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. 4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: 5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
6 But now hath he obtained(past tense yet again) a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. 13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

 

[Pax]

unworthy sinner,

I apologize if you were offended by my tone. The problem is that I have been around the block on this issue many times. In every case those who espouse this belief cannot answer the challenges I submit to them. You are no exception. You did not answer my questions concerning your claim about true believers and that those that fall away simply weren’t true believers to begin with. You skirted that issue and went down another path in your efforts to rebut legitimate scriptural evidence against your position.

So what about some of things you did say. You claimed that if our contention concerning apostasy were true then we must logically conclude that ex-believers cannot be restored. Well, scripture clearly says that an “apostate” cannot be restored. I didn’t make it up, I merely quoted it. I would like you to examine this issue, and find a true apostate that fully comprehended and embraced his apostasy that did return to the faith. Perhaps well explored examples would clarify this for you.

You also quote 1 John 2:19 which says, “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were all not of us.” You apparently believe that this somehow proves that someone was not “truly saved” to begin with. You never should have picked this verse because it is fatal to your argument and understanding. It proves that you ignore context, engage in eisegesis, and ultimately it destroys your very point.

All of this can be demonstrated by quoting the context beginning at verse 18 and continuing through verse 25. The passage reads as follows: “Children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come; therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us. But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all know. I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and know that no lie is of the truth. Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father. He who confesses the Son has the Father also. Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you will abide in the Son and in the Father.
And this is what he has promised us, eternal life.”

Now it’s important to note that the context is not talking about faithful Christians that left the fold. Instead, it is refering to false teachers in the spirit of the anti-Christ. Moreover, John points out that these teachers are recognizable because they were “not of us” and that “they went out.” This is the pattern with all heretics, none of which remained with the Church but left it instead. They even denied the son…they are antichrist. Also note that John says, “If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he has promised us, eternal life.” The word abide means “to remain.”
If what you heard from the beginning does not “remain” in you then you will not “remain” in the Son or in the Father and you will not have eternal salvation.

This set of verses in no way supports your claims concerning eternal security.

 

[Pax]

unworthysinner:

This chapter must be missing from your Bible…

Hebrews 8:1-13 (KJV)

1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is** the sum**: We have such an high priest, who is set

set where? On the altar before thousands of Catholic priests? Absolutely NOT. No he’s…

on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; 2 A minister of the sanctuarya, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. 3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. 4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: 5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
6 But now hath he obtained(past tense yet again) a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. 13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

unworthysinner,

This set of verses certainly is in my bible and I have read it many times. Catholics say Amen to these verses and find Catholic teaching to be consistent with them. Unfortunately, this set of verses in no way negates my quote from Hebrews and really has nothing to do with the point that I made. Your attempt to use this passage in this area of our discussion is misplaced.