Catholic vs. Protestant John 3:16?

[Pax]

unworthysinner,

It would be helpful if you also looked at Hebrews 2:1. It says “Therefore we must pay closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. For if the message declared by angels was valid and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution, how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard him, while God also bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his own will.” These are Christians that have been justified and they are warned not to drift away or they will suffer the eternal consequences of hell. Once Saved Always Saved?" I don’t think so.

In the book of Revelation Chapter 2 Jesus speaks in warning to John about the Churches. He is speaking about believers and what He has against them. Jesus even says “repent….If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.”[Rev 2:5]. To remove their lampstand means that they will be destroyed. They will join the damned. Jesus makes this kind of warning and demand for repentance from all of the seven Churches. Jesus uses the word “repent” eight times in addressing the churches.

Paul warns believers over and over about falling back into sin and licentiousness and that if they do they will suffer the consequences of eternal punishment[see Romans 11:20, Romans 2:3-11, 1 Timothy:18-20, Philippians 2:12, Eph 5:5-6, Col 1:21-23, Gal 6:6-9, Gal 5:19-21] I could go on but these verses should be sufficient. If this is not enough scripture for you then go back and read all the quotes I gave that refute OSAS. Many of them have an application to losing your justification.

There are examples in scripture of people that were believers and then fell away in various ways. Ananias and Sapphira are described in the book of Acts and it is clear that they are part of the Christian community of believers. We know precisely from scripture what happened to them and why. In Acts 5:3-4 Peter says “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? How is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.” Ananias and Sapphira did an evil deed by letting Satan into their hearts and lying to the Holy Spirit. Consider the outpouring of the Holy Spirit as described in the book of Acts and what these two believers must have witnessed before they lied to the Holy Spirit. They turned away from God out of sinful desires and lied to the Holy Spirit. They were justified and then lost their justification.

The story about Simon the Magician is also helpful in demonstrating that people can turn from God after being justified and what the consequences are. And again Simon is not described as a believer without root or any other such thing. We are told in Acts 8:13 “Even Simon himself believed, and after being baptized he continued with Philip. And seeing signs and great miracles performed, he was amazed.” The narrative then goes on to say that Simon saw that the gift and power of the Holy Spirit could be granted by the apostles by the laying on of hands. Simon desired to have the power of laying on hands and he was willing to pay the apostles to get it. When he solicited the apostles Peter rebuked him saying, “Your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money. You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. Repent therefore of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that, if possible, the intent of your heart may be forgiven you.”[Acts 8:20-22] This rebuke so frightened Simon that he responds in verse 24 saying, "Pray for me to the Lord, that nothing of what you have said may come upon me.” Simon was fearful because to perish meant death and damnation. Once again we have a Christian believer that was going to lose his salvation. And please note that this was not as a result of apostasy or loss of faith. Instead it was a grasping at power that God grants through the laying on of hands.

OSAS is not supported in scripture.

 

[Pax]

unworthysinner,

I have given you some specific examples in scripture to show what can happen to believers and how they can lose their salvation. Earlier you mentioned Judas Iscariot and I challenged you to demonstrate that he did not have faith or “true faith” as you described it. You cannot prove such a thing by scripture. In fact let’s examine exactly what scripture does say about Judas.

Judas is another example of a believer that perished. Judas is never referred to as a pseudo believer or as not having “true faith.” Judas is described as a traitor/betrayer. This is very important. He believed in Jesus and he betrayed his Lord and Savior. Please note that at the marriage feast of Cana Jesus worked his first miracle and scripture tells us that His disciples believed in Him[John 2:11]. Clearly, Judas had faith. Jesus picked the twelve apostles and in Matthew 10:1 it says that Jesus, “….called to him his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every infirmity.” Even Judas was given the authority over unclean spirits and the power of healing. Judas was a believer and he is never described as not being a true believer. Instead he is described many times as a traitor and even as having stolen money from the common purse. According to scripture there is only one time that Judas did not believe Jesus. In John 6:64, Judas is pointed out as one of those that did not believe Jesus when He promised to give us His precious body and blood to have as true food and true drink. Many others did not believe what Jesus said in the Discourse on the Bread of Life and they left him. Today non-Catholic Christians also reject the words of Jesus from John 6 and do not believe that Jesus would give us His flesh and blood as true food and true drink. Does this mean that they too are all without root and do not have a true faith? If not, then Judas was just as much a believer as any one else. One thing we do know for sure is that Judas was a traitor. He walked with the Lord for three years and “believed.” You cannot “betray” someone or something you are not a part of. Non-believers are not in a position to betray the Lord for they are already at enmity with God. Judas is another clear example of how one can lose their salvation.

You might also reconsider your position on John 10:28 that says, “…and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.” Once again this does not prove or establish the doctrine of “eternal security.” The example of Judas is again helpful in this regard because Jesus speaks of this very same point of perishing in John 17:12. Notice what Jesus says, “While I was with them, I kept them in thy name, which thou hast given me; I have guarded them, and none of them is lost but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled.” In John 10:28, Jesus is not talking in the absolutist terms that must be claimed for the doctrine of eternal security, because he later qualifies his point in John 17:12 saying that Judas was lost. Exegetically, you cannot use John 10:28 to establish your teaching of OSAS.

 

[Pax]

unworthysinner:

My, my what a tone. Are you so offended by even the idea of eternal security? How about the imaginary doctrine of purgatory, Mary Co-redemptrix(soon to be part of the trinity), Peter as pope, tradition equal to the Word of God. Those my friend are not in the Bible, you will not find even the slightest hint of such doctrines, but you follow them anyway. .

Once again, I will apologize for my tone. I am offended by the term eternal security because it is heresy and is very dangerous to those that believe it. You claim purgatory to be imaginary but I can demonstrate from scripture that you are wrong. You obviously do not know what is meant by the term Co-redemptrix and you must be from another another planet if you think that that the Catholic Church intends to make Mary part of the Trinity. I can also demonstrate the papacy from scripture and I can also show from scripture the place of Tradition as it is taught by the Catholic Church. They are all biblical. You simply do not know the scriptures that support Catholic teaching.

unworthysinner:

The Bible is full of examples of eternal security, you choose not to heed them. I have given many such examples but have been flatly ignored. The entire book of I John was written so that anyone who cares to find out if they can be sure of eternal life can KNOW for sure that they have it. If you really want to see the facts of eternal security read on, if not that is your choice…

I think that I have given your quotes ample attention and have not ignored your efforts or your interpretation of scripture. Hopefully my previous posts have given adequate attention to your contentions. If not I and others will continue to engage you in discussion.

unworthysinner:

We are saved on the basis of what Jesus did for us at Calvary. Nothing we have done contributed to our salvation. Nothing we do can maintain us in a saved state. All depends on Jesus’ sacrifice for us. Nothing depends on what we do for God.
…
…

But what of the concern that underlies the hesitation of some to rest in Jesus’ promise of eternal security? The concern arises from confusing the basis of salvation with motivation for holy living. We are saved because of Jesus’ work on the Cross, from first to last. Nothing we do can add to or subtract from the efficacy of Jesus’ self-sacrifice.

Catholics believe that we are indeed saved by grace alone through the merits of Jesus Christ’s suffering, death, and resurrection. We did not earn any of this. What we do believe based on scripture, however, is that justification is more than simply forensic in nature. We know this because in Isaiah 55:11 it says, “…so shall my word be that goes forth from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and prosper in the thing for which I sent it.” When God says something it happens. When He says we are justified we are a new creation. We are thus able as Paul tells us to “live in the spirit.” Grace enables and empowers us and lifts us out of sin.

cont. on next post

 

[Pax]

This enabling power of grace is reflected in the following verses:

Psalm 40:10
I have not hidden your saving help within my heart, I have spoken of your faithfulness and your salvation;

Psalm 94:17-19
If the LORD had not been my help, my soul would soon have lived in the land of silence.
When I thought, “My foot is slipping,” your steadfast love, O LORD, held me up.

2 Cor 3:5-6
Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God, who has made us competent…

1 Cor 15:58
Therefore, my beloved, be steadfast, immovable, always excelling in the work of the Lord, because you know that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.

1 Cor 10:13
God is faithful, and he will not let you be tested beyond your strength, but with the testing he will also provide the way out so that you may be able to endure it.

Eph 3:16
I pray that, according to the riches of his glory, he may grant that you may be strengthened in your inner being with power through his Spirit,

Eph 3:20
Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to accomplish abundantly far more than all we can ask or imagine,

Eph 6:10-11
Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his power. Put on the whole armor of God, so that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

Phil 4:13
I can do all things through him who strengthens me.

Col 1:11
May you be made strong with all the strength that comes from his glorious power, and may you be prepared to endure everything with joy

2 Thess 1:11
To this end we always pray for you, asking that our God will make you worthy of his call and will fulfill by his power every good resolve and work of faith, so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thess 3:3
But the Lord is faithful; he will strengthen you and guard you from the evil one.

2 Tim 1:7
for God did not give us a spirit of cowardice, but rather a spirit of power and of love and of self-discipline.

2 Tim 3:2- 5
For people will be lovers of themselves, … lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding to the outward form of godliness but denying its power.

Heb 13:9
Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings; for it is well for the heart to be strengthened by grace, not by regulations about food, which have not benefited those who observe them.

John 15:5
I am the vine, you are the branches. Those who abide in me and I in them bear much fruit, because apart from me you can do nothing.

Our justification comes to us by way of grace. The gift of faith, when accepted by us, is our response to grace. We also receive grace to do God’s will, to love God above all things, to love our neighbor as ourselves, and to be obedient to God. Christ’s suffering, death, and resurrection are the source and power of the grace that God gives us to “live” in the spirit and not in the “flesh.” Living in the flesh is “human effort” and is worthless before God. We must, however, live by grace. We must live in the spirit. Just as we are declared and made righteous by God’s grace, we are also to live by God’s grace. The source of everything is God’s grace…we do nothing on our own. Because everything is by God’s grace we read in Eph 2:8-10, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God–not because of works, lest any man should boast. **For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.” ** Please note that we are “his workmanship” created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand. God created the good works we are to walk in prior to our having been justified. This is why the apostle James clearly says, in James 2:24 “that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.” All the glory and credit goes to God.

I hope this helps you to begin to understand Catholic teaching.

 

[RyanL]

Unworthysinner,

You are clearly one with a great love for Jesus, our Lord and King. I am grateful that you are so convicted that you would seek to bring light to others, and hope that you will continue discussing with those on this site. While you do, however, remember to keep open your heart and mind so that the Holy Spirit might work within you to reveal the Truth. You are on this site speaking with these people for a reason - do not consider it chance. My prayers are for you and with you, and I hope that the fullness of truth may be reached by all and God’s glory proclaimed throughout the world. If today you hear His word, harden not your heart.

Peace be with you,
RyanL

 

[unworthysinner]

Pax:

I apologize if you were offended by my tone. The problem is that I have been around the block on this issue many times. In every case those who espouse this belief cannot answer the challenges I submit to them. You are no exception. You did not answer my questions concerning your claim about true believers and that those that fall away simply weren’t true believers to begin with. You skirted that issue and went down another path in your efforts to rebut legitimate scriptural evidence against your position.

That is my contention that the verses that talk about those who “fall away” never were believers, never had salvation so never lost it. Hence, once saved always saved.

Pax:

So what about some of things you did say. You claimed that if our contention concerning apostasy were true then we must logically conclude that ex-believers cannot be restored. Well, scripture clearly says that an “apostate” cannot be restored. I didn’t make it up, I merely quoted it. I would like you to examine this issue, and find a true apostate that fully comprehended and embraced his apostasy that did return to the faith. Perhaps well explored examples would clarify this for you.

I never said an “apostate” could return to his faith. I said the opposite that the “apostate” never had faith, never truly believed and so could reject Christ. Those that are IN CHRIST are always saved and will never reject Him.

Pax:

You also quote 1 John 2:19 which says…You apparently believe that this somehow proves that someone was not “truly saved” to begin with. You never should have picked this verse because it is fatal to your argument and understanding. It proves that you ignore context, engage in eisegesis, and ultimately it destroys your very point.

Yes they were never saved at all. And you agree with me here in the same post…

Pax:

Now it’s important to note that the context is not

talking about faithful Christians that left the fold. Instead, it is referring to false teachers in the spirit of the anti-Christ. Moreover, John points out that these teachers are recognizable because they were “not of us” and that “they went out.” This is the pattern with all heretics, none of which remained with the Church but left it instead. They even denied the son…they are antichrist. Also note that John says, “If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he has promised us, eternal life.” The word abide means “to remain.”

If what you heard from the beginning does not “remain” in you then you will not “remain” in the Son or in the Father and you will not have eternal salvation.

This set of verses in no way supports your claims concerning eternal security

Continued in next post…

 

[unworthysinner]

True Christians will never leave the fold, if anyone claims to be one and leaves they show they never were saved at all. For example examine Christ’s words to those who would call Him Lord, and say they did works in His name…

Mathew 7(end of the Sermon on the Mount)

21Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.http://www.scriptours.com/images/spacer.gif

22**Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name?http://www.scriptours.com/images/spacer.gif

**23And then will I profess unto them, I ***never ***knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity

(note he didn’t once know them and then they fell away, they thought they knew him but he never knew them. The unbelievers answer is didn’t you see our works Lord? Jesus says they never believed in Him but in their works(very similar to the way of salvation in Catholicism that depends on what YOU do, not on what He’s done to remain in grace.)

Grace by definition is unmerited favor. You can’t work for it yet. Yet the Catechism says…

Paragraph #2010

******Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

****The Word of God says…

****Romans 11:6

And if by grace, it is not now by works: otherwise grace is no more grace.

John 6
28 They said therefore unto him: What shall we do, that we may work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said to them: This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he hath sent.

 

[unworthysinner]

RyanL:

Unworthysinner,

You are clearly one with a great love for Jesus, our Lord and King. I am grateful that you are so convicted that you would seek to bring light to others, and hope that you will continue discussing with those on this site. While you do, however, remember to keep open your heart and mind so that the Holy Spirit might work within you to reveal the Truth. You are on this site speaking with these people for a reason - do not consider it chance. My prayers are for you and with you, and I hope that the fullness of truth may be reached by all and God’s glory proclaimed throughout the world. If today you hear His word, harden not your heart.

Peace be with you,
RyanL

Thank you for your kind words Ryan. Jesus Christ is as Saint Thomas proclaimed “my Lord and my God”. He is my Savior, Redeemer, Rock, High Tower, Friend, and Shepherd. He has given me eternal life as a free gift(although it was not cheap, it cost Him his life and separation on the cross from the Father). He is my intercessor, mediator, and propitiation for my sins.
He is the way, the truth, and the life, the resurrection, the Great High Priest, the Son of God. He is King of ings, and Lord of lords. All praise to His name.

 

[Pax]

unworthysinner,

You have missed my point. I have to admit that in my haste and lack of proof reading I did make a mistatement concerning 1 John 2:19. I did not intend to say, “Now it’s important to note that the context is not talking about faithful Christians that left the fold.” What I meant is that John is not talking about true believers or those that are not truly saved. Instead he is talking about false teachers. The rest of my post makes this point quite clear and we do not agree with one another at all on this.

 

[Pax]

unworthysinner:

True Christians will never leave the fold, if anyone claims to be one and leaves they show they never were saved at all. For example examine Christ’s words to those who would call Him Lord, and say they did works in His name…

Mathew 7(end of the Sermon on the Mount)

21Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.http://www.scriptours.com/images/spacer.gif

22Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name?http://www.scriptours.com/images/spacer.gif

23And then will I profess unto them, I ***never ***knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity

(note he didn’t once know them and then they fell away, they thought they knew him but he never knew them. The unbelievers answer is didn’t you see our works Lord? Jesus says they never believed in Him but in their works(very similar to the way of salvation in Catholicism that depends on what YOU do, not on what He’s done to remain in grace.)
…
…

Now this is all very interesting but your interpretation simply doesn’t ring true. Let’s look at what Jesus says in this set of verses compared to you claims. In verse 21 Jesus says, “Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.” You have ignored this latter part of the verse which makes it clear that we must be obedient to the will of the Father in heaven. Just in case you think this is some minor thing try looking at the following verses concerning obedience:

Deu 7:9-10
Know therefore that the LORD your God is God, the faithful God who maintains covenant loyalty with those who love him and keep his commandments, to a thousand generations, and who repays in their own person those who reject him.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but must endure God’s wrath.

Acts 5:32
And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey him."

Heb 5:9
and having been made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him,

1 Peter 1: 2
to the exiles…who have been chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood:

2 Thess 1:7-9
…inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
These will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord …

1John 2:17
And the world and its desire are passing away, but those who do the will of God live forever.

Rom 6:16
Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?

Rev 12:17
Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her children, those who keep the commandments of God and hold the testimony of Jesus.

cont. on next post

 

[Pax]

Clearly we are not saved by faith alone. A word study on obedience which I have essentially just provided should make this clear. You can also do a word study on the word love and come up with the following as well:

1 Cor 8:3
…but anyone who loves God is known by him.

1 Cor 16:22
Let anyone be accursed who has no love for the Lord. Our Lord, come!

Jam 1:12-15
Blessed is anyone who endures temptation. Such a one has stood the test and will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.

James 2:5
Has not God chosen the poor in the world to be rich in faith and to be heirs of the kingdom that he has promised to those who love him?

Luke 10:25-37
“Teacher,” he said, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” He said to him, “What is written in the law? What do you read there?” He answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.” And he said to him, “You have given the right answer; do this, and you will live.”

John 14:15
"If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

John 15:10
If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love.

1Cor 2:9
But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the human heart conceived, what God has prepared for those who love him”

1Cor 13:1-2
If I speak in the tongues of mortals and of angels, but do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not
have love, I am nothing. If I give away all my possessions, and if I hand over my body so that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

1Cor 13:13
And now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love.

1Jn 5:3
For the love of God is this, that we obey his commandments.

2 Jn 1:6
And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments; this is the commandment just as you have heard it from the beginning-you must walk in it.

Once again, we are not saved by faith alone and OSAS simply isn’t true.

 

[Pax]

unworthysinner,

You quoted, fatally, the following verses:

John 6
28 They said therefore unto him: What shall we do, that we may work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said to them: This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he hath sent

You have pointed something out here that I have spent quite a bit of time discussing with my non-Catholic brothers and sisters, and it is something that they have had no answer for. I will give you an opportunity to reflect and respond as well. Please note that in the above passage, Jesus says that “believing in him” is a work. To put it another way Jesus says that “faith is a work.”

This is extremely important and is worth exploring in other parts of scripture. Please reflect on the following:

The belief that we are saved by faith alone, and that it is not necessary to love God in order to be saved is contrary to both scripture and common sense.

We are told in 1Cor 8:3 that “…anyone that loves God is known by him.” If you are not known by God then you are not saved. This is given even greater emphasis in 1 Cor 16:22 where Paul tells us, “Let anyone be accursed who has no love for the Lord.” In James 1:12 we are told that “…the crown of life is promised to those who love him [the Lord].” This same statement is repeated in James 2:5.

And the apostle, John, defines for us what love of God is when he says in 1Jn 5:3 “For the love of God is this, that we obey his commandments.” And Jesus, Himself, says in John 15:10 that “If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love.” Obviously, if we do not abide in God’s love we are not saved.

In John’s vision in the book of Revelation, Jesus warns members of the church at Ephesus that they might be destroyed if they do not repent and return to the love they once had. This is very clear in Rev 2:4-5 where Jesus says, “But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember then from what you have fallen, repent and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.” Then again just before addressing the transgressions of the church at Thyatira, Jesus says in Rev 2:19 that, “I know your works, your love and faith and service and patient endurance, and that your latter works exceed the first.” These verses are significant in two ways. They show the necessity of love in the plan of salvation, and they show that both love and faith are referred to as works.

Paul teaches that faith and love are works in 1st Thessalonians 1:2-3 where he says, " We always give thanks to God for all of you and mention you in our prayers, constantly remembering before our God and Father your **work of faith ** and labor of love and **steadfastness of hope ** in our Lord Jesus Christ."

This linkage is also made by Paul in Galatians 5:6 where we read, “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love.” Likewise, Paul tells us the importance of love when he says, “So faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love”(1 Corinthians 13:13). Paul also says in Corinthians 13:1-13 that "IF I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing….Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect; but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away. …So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love."

Scripture says that faith, hope and love, are works.

If faith, hope, and love are “works” then it should be pretty obvious from all of the above quoted scriptures, from this and prior posts, that we are not saved by faith alone. Moreover, it illustrates that OSAS is a totally errant doctrine. It is the entire context and picture provided by scripture upon which doctrines should be based. OSAS is believed by a relatively small number of Christians and was never believed until after the Reformation. The doctrine of salvation by faith alone was also never believed until after the Reformation but at least a majority of Protestants believe that doctrine.

 

[reen12]

I’ve read a considerable part of this thread.
A couple of observations:

Jesus recommended that we become like little
children in relation to God…albiet, one supposes,
“obedient” children. That is the stance from
which OSAS makes some sense. It’s as if
one said: “My mother and father love me.
They will keep me with them and never forsake
me.” That is called childlike trust.
**
The difficulty is, we are now responsible adults.
If I sin, I sin. Isn’t life a continual turning back
to God? Isn’t this why we can repent, and
return to the attitude of trust as described
above?

If someone says: I trust God. I am saved,
once and for always…set aside for one
moment what Scripture says and consult one’s
own experience.
“The just man falls [several] times a day.”

So, looking at both Scripture and my own
adult experience, I can say: I sin, I repent,
and continually return to the childlike
[not *childish] trust in God.

I know how to say it better, I think:
God alone justifies me. He offers me
salvation via repentence.

reen12
**

 

[unworthysinner]

Pax:

Moreover, it illustrates that OSAS is a totally errant doctrine. It is the entire context and picture provided by scripture upon which doctrines should be based. OSAS is believed by a relatively small number of Christians and was never believed until after the Reformation. The doctrine of salvation by faith alone was also never believed until after the Reformation but at least a majority of Protestants believe that doctrine.

How about just the Apostle Peter, he only wrote 2 books of the NT. Let us see if he believes in OSAS…

1 Peter 1:3-5
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the** last time**.

1 Peter 1:22-25

22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

1 Peter 2:24-25
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. 25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

1 Peter 3:18
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1 Peter 5:10-11
10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, **settle **you. 11 To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

2 Peter 1:1-4
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: 2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, 3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

2 Peter 1:10-17
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. 12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.13 Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you** in remembrance**; 14 Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me. 15 Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance. 16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

 

[Pax]

unworthysinner:

That is my contention that the verses that talk about those who “fall away” never were believers, never had salvation so never lost it. Hence, once saved always saved.

I never said an “apostate” could return to his faith. I said the opposite that the “apostate” never had faith, never truly believed and so could reject Christ. Those that are IN CHRIST are always saved and will never reject Him.

You are correct in reiterating what you said, but it is contrary to scripture. I will quote Hebrews 6:4-6 once more to show you that your contention is incorrect. The verses read as follows:

“For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt.”

You say “that the apostate never had faith.” Scripture says that the described individuals have been enlightened, have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit. None of these things are possible without faith. Notice that scripture says that **if ** someone has been given these things then commits apostasy they cannot be restored to repentance. They had the heavenly gifts and then they turned to apostasy. Scripture doesn’t say they “never had faith to begin with.” You are adding to the Holy word of God in an effort to make it say something that it clearly denies.

You also tried to equate apostasy with “falling away” and apparently any other behaviors that could separate us from God. Hebrews 6:4-6 addresses apostasy specifically. It does not address other ways of falling from grace. In the NT there are only two places that make any kind of reference to sin in a way that indicates that a person cannot be forgiven or in some way restored to repentence. One is Hebrews 6:4-6 which we have quoted and the other is when Jesus says, “And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.”[Matthew 12:32] It would appear that in all other cases a sinner can repent and be restored. In the case of apostasy or speaking against the Holy Spirit, however, the individual simply won’t repent and therefore cannot be restored. It is important not to confuse these instances with other forms of sinfulness for which people can/will repent and be restored.

In any event the apostate did have faith, but then rejected that which he was given. Again, this set of passages is fatal to OSAS.

 

[haole]

JMJ

**(5 of 5) Catholic vs. Protestant. Can the answer be found in John 3:16? **

(Continued from last post)

The non-Catholic Christian argument that once save, we will do good works because we are save, wrongly assumes that we will sin no more and that it is not possible to lose our salvation… We are all sinners and must reconcile with God often. Like I have already stated, it is a constant battle.

I think when anyone wrongly states that they know for a fact that they will go to heaven because they have been saved, or that their name has been written in the Book of Life, forever. They have assumed the role of God. They decided what is gong to happen to them. They can read God’s mind. Only God will decide who enters the Kingdom of Heaven, not us!

This sort of belief, that “I know” I’m going to heaven, because I’ve been saved, is not a very humble belief. This would be like going to court as a defendant in a criminal case and say “I know” I will be found not guilty. It is not in your hands, you don’t know, you can only hope. That’s what Jesus gave us, hope! Not a guarantee. We must always try with humility to avoid sin. We must always try to obey Gods laws. We must love and worship God with all of our heart, mind and soul. We will continue to sin and when we do we must reconcile with our Father and come back to the light.

End.

God have mercy on me, a sinner.

John 14:12

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father

 

[unworthysinner]

Pax:

You are correct in reiterating what you said, but it is contrary to scripture. I will quote Hebrews 6:4-6 once more to show you that your contention is incorrect. The verses read as follows:
You say “that the apostate never had faith.” Scripture says that the described individuals have been enlightened, have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit. None of these things are possible without faith. …You are adding to the Holy word of God in an effort to make it say something that it clearly denies…

Who are these people? The answer is given in verses 4 and 5. In examining the great privileges which they enjoyed, it should be noticed that all these things could be true of the unsaved. It is never clearly stated that they had been born again. Neither is any mention made of such essentials as saving faith, redemption by His blood, or eternal life.
They had once been enlightened. They had heard the gospel of the grace of God. They were not in darkness concerning the way of salvation. Judas Iscariot had been enlightened but he rejected the light.

They tasted the heavenly gift. The Lord Jesus is the heavenly Gift. They had tasted of Him but had never received Him by a definite act of faith. It is possible to taste without eating or drinking. When men offered wine mixed with gall to Jesus on the cross, He tasted it but He would not drink it (Matt. 27:34). It is not enough to taste Christ; unless we eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, that is, unless we truly receive Him as Lord and Savior, we have no life in us (John 6:53).

They had become partakers of the Holy Spirit. Before we jump to the conclusion that this necessarily implies conversion, we should remember that the Holy Spirit carries on a preconversion ministry in men’s lives. He sanctifies unbelievers (1 Cor. 7:14), putting them in a position of external privilege. He convicts unbelievers of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment (John 16:8). He leads men to repentance and points them to Christ as their only hope. Men may thus partake of the Holy Spirit’s benefits without being indwelt by Him.

6:5 They had tasted the good word of God. As they heard the gospel preached, they were strangely moved and drawn to it. They were like the seed that fell on rocky ground; they heard the word and immediately received it with joy, but they had no root in themselves. They endured for a while, but when tribulation or persecution arose on account of the word, they promptly fell away (Matt. 13:20, 21).

They had tasted the powers of the age to come. Powers here means “miracles.” The age to come is the Millennial Age, the coming era of peace and prosperity when Christ will reign over the earth for one thousand years. The miracles which accompanied the preaching of the gospel in the early days of the church (Heb. 2:4) were a foretaste of signs and wonders which will be performed in Christ’s kingdom. These people had witnessed these miracles in the first century, in fact, they might have participated in them. Take, for instance, the miracles of the loaves and fishes. After Jesus had fed the five thousand, the people followed Him to the other side of the sea. The Savior realized that, though they had tasted a miracle, they did not really believe in Him. He said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled” (John 6:26).

6:6** If they fall away,**http://forums.catholic-questions.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=548567#_ftn1 after enjoying the privileges just enumerated, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance. They have committed the sin of apostasy.

The enormous guilt of apostates is indicated in the words since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame (v. 6b). This signifies a deliberate, malicious spurning of Christ, not just a careless disregard of Him. It indicates a positive betrayal of Him, a joining of forces against Him, and a ridiculing of His Person and work.

 

[unworthysinner]

Jimmy B:

This sort of belief, that “I know

” I’m going to heaven, because I’ve been saved, is not a very humble belief. This would be like going to court as a defendant in a criminal case and say “I know” I will be found not guilty. It is not in your hands, you don’t know, you can only hope. That’s what Jesus gave us, hope! Not a guarantee. We must always try with humility to avoid sin. We must always try to obey Gods laws. We must love and worship God with all of our heart, mind and soul. We will continue to sin and when we do we must reconcile with our Father and come back to the light.

Romans 1:16
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 10:11-17
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

2 Corinthians 7:14

14 For if I have boasted any thing to him of you, I am not ashamed; but as we spake all things to you in truth, even so our boasting, which I made before Titus, is found a truth.

2 Corinthians 11:10
10 As the truth of Christ is in me, no man shall stop me of this boasting in the regions of Achaia.

 

[Stone]

Jimmy B:

Might not, means maybe. Might not does not mean that your salvation is guaranteed, just by believing. Might not, means that Jesus suffered and died for us, and our sins so that we *might *be, or could be saved. Jesus died for our sins, He died 2000 years ago. We were all given free will, which means, that after “saying” we believe, after Jesus died for ours sins, that we can still fall into sin and lose our salvationNo, "might not, does not mean “maybe.” The verse is in propositional form, and “might not” is said in the spirit of that proposition. God sent His Son into the world, so that “if” anyone believes in Him, he “might not” (based on “if” he believes) perish (through divine judgment) but instead HAVE eternal life.

No…there’s no “maybe” in this verse at all.

Sin is not the issue this side of the cross. God had His judgment day on sin 2000 years ago when your and my sins were imputed to Christ and He died there on the cross, taking upon Himself our punishment in our stead. That’s what a substitutionary sacrifice is all about. The Gospel (good news) message that has gone out into the world since His death and subsequent resurrection is that “if” any man puts His faith in Christ he will not perish, i.e., come into divine judgment because of his sins, but be given eternal life because of Christ (see Jn. 3:18).

 

[Pax]

unworthysinner:

Who are these people? The answer is given in verses 4 and 5. In examining the great privileges which they enjoyed, it should be noticed that all these things could be true of the unsaved. It is never clearly stated that they had been born again. Neither is any mention made of such essentials as saving faith, redemption by His blood, or eternal life.
They had once been enlightened. They had heard the gospel of the grace of God. They were not in darkness concerning the way of salvation. Judas Iscariot had been enlightened but he rejected the light.

…
…
…

6:6** If they fall away,**http://forums.catholic-questions.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=548567#_ftn1 after enjoying the privileges just enumerated, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance. They have committed the sin of apostasy.

The enormous guilt of apostates is indicated in the words since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame (v. 6b). This signifies a deliberate, malicious spurning of Christ, not just a careless disregard of Him. It indicates a positive betrayal of Him, a joining of forces against Him, and a ridiculing of His Person and work.

How can I say anything with charity here? Every bit of what you have said is utter fluff and of your personal creative interpretation. You have so utterly misused scripture and added to the Holy word of God that it almost defies description and response. I will therefore stay focused on what we had already been discussing.

Let’s again revisit the quote from Hebrews 6. This set of verses is clearly talking about people of faith. In Hebrews 6:1-3 we see the context which you deny. The verses say, “Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, with instruction about ablutions, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. And this we will do if God permits.” Just preceding this in Chapter five we’re told that the those to whom the letter is being written should already be mature in faith and should be able to teach but are still immature. The author then reiterates the basics in 6:1-3 which include repentance, faith, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. Having mentioned these he mentions moving on to those things beyond the elementary doctrine of Christ. It is at this point that the author launches into the statements on apostasy and how a person who has had all of the gifts granted to a believer turns from Christ. The words used in verse 4 are “it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened,” Please think about this. The rules of linguistics preclude your understanding. You cannot restore someone to a position that they did not already have. These people are believers. Furthermore, the definition of apostasy is "The public abandoning of your faith for another."[See Bamford’s bible dictionary which is a non-Catholic source or simply use a Webster’s dictionary]

Your interpretation simply doesn’t meet the most basic tests of exegesis or linguistic standards. You are grasping at straws and twisting scripture to support a doctrine that is clearly refuted in the Book of Hebrews as well as many other places in scripture.

I have personally researched in excess of 60 passages of scripture that refute OSAS. If you want them simply email me and I will be glad to send you the file.