P
Pax
Guest
Paul is not speaking of “faith alone.” Please show me in the verse I quoted the words “faith alone.”
- Status
T
TobyLue
Guest
One who has no faith cannot be an apostate.
Apostate; noun. One who abandons ones religious faith.
So it seems that to claim that those who fell never had any faith at all is incorrect. An atheist who has no faith in Jesus Christ cannot be considered an apostate. A Hindu who never had faith in Jesus Christ, and after hearing the word, decides its not for him cannot be considered an apostate.
One problem with OSAS doctrine is that it takes away free will. Can anybody who says they have been saved claim that they no longer sin? Wow!!! Have they reached perfection?
One more thing, Is the following a correct verse from the Bible?
“Master, what must I do to be saved?” and Jesus answered, “All you must do is say you believe in me and you are saved and thats a guarantee”
Apostate; noun. One who abandons ones religious faith.
So it seems that to claim that those who fell never had any faith at all is incorrect. An atheist who has no faith in Jesus Christ cannot be considered an apostate. A Hindu who never had faith in Jesus Christ, and after hearing the word, decides its not for him cannot be considered an apostate.
One problem with OSAS doctrine is that it takes away free will. Can anybody who says they have been saved claim that they no longer sin? Wow!!! Have they reached perfection?
One more thing, Is the following a correct verse from the Bible?
“Master, what must I do to be saved?” and Jesus answered, “All you must do is say you believe in me and you are saved and thats a guarantee”
J
Jimmy_B
Guest
JMJ
**
Chapter 2********
18 For, talking empty bombast, they seduce with licentious desires of the flesh those who have barely escaped from people who live in error.
19 They promise them freedom, though they themselves are slaves of corruption, for a person is a slave of whatever overcomes him.
20 For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
**
**
**
Chapter 2********
18 For, talking empty bombast, they seduce with licentious desires of the flesh those who have barely escaped from people who live in error.
19 They promise them freedom, though they themselves are slaves of corruption, for a person is a slave of whatever overcomes him.
20 For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
**
J
Jimmy_B
Guest
JMJ
**
1 Peter
Chapter 5****
5 Likewise, you younger members, be subject to the presbyters. And all of you, clothe yourselves with humility in your dealings with one another, for: “God opposes the proud but bestows favor on the humble.”
6 So humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time.
8 Be sober and vigilant. Your opponent the devil is prowling around like a roaring lion looking for (someone**) to devour**.
9 Resist him, steadfast in faith, knowing that your fellow believers throughout the world undergo the same sufferings
2 Peter
Chapter 2****
4 For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but condemned themto the chains of Tartarus and handed them over to be kept for judgment;
5 and if he did not spare the ancient world, even though he preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, together with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the godless world;
6 and if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah (to destruction), reducing them to ashes, making them an example for the godless (people) of what is coming;
9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the devout from trial and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment,
13 suffering wrong as payment for wrongdoing….
**
Question - So if you are once saved always saved, does that mean the Day of Judgment (which hasn’t occurred yet) isn’t necessary in your case and does not apply to you?
**
1 Peter
Chapter 5****
5 Likewise, you younger members, be subject to the presbyters. And all of you, clothe yourselves with humility in your dealings with one another, for: “God opposes the proud but bestows favor on the humble.”
6 So humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time.
8 Be sober and vigilant. Your opponent the devil is prowling around like a roaring lion looking for (someone**) to devour**.
9 Resist him, steadfast in faith, knowing that your fellow believers throughout the world undergo the same sufferings
2 Peter
Chapter 2****
4 For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but condemned themto the chains of Tartarus and handed them over to be kept for judgment;
5 and if he did not spare the ancient world, even though he preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, together with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the godless world;
6 and if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah (to destruction), reducing them to ashes, making them an example for the godless (people) of what is coming;
9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the devout from trial and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment,
13 suffering wrong as payment for wrongdoing….
**
Question - So if you are once saved always saved, does that mean the Day of Judgment (which hasn’t occurred yet) isn’t necessary in your case and does not apply to you?
J
Jimmy_B
Guest
JMJ
**
2 Peter
Chapter 3
14 Therefore, beloved, since you await these things, be eager to be found without spot or blemish before him, at peace.
16 speaking of these things as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand **that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures. **
17 Therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, be on your guard **not to be led into the error **of the unprincipled and to fall from your own stability.
18 But grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory now and to the day of eternity. (Amen.)
**
I guess one that has absolute certainty that they are already saved (forever), with absolutely zero chances of loosing their “guaranteed” entrance into heaven, don’t need to be bothered by this verse -“since you await these things, be eager to be found without spot or blemish before him, at peace.” Because Judgment Day does not apply to you. You already know with absolute certainty, that you can not fall from grace and will go to straight to heaven.Right? So does that mean everybody has a different Judgment Day? If the guarantee of Heaven happens for you the day you are “saved”, that would be your Judgment Day right? Because, that would be the day (for you) that God decided that you were going to Heaven.
Unless of course, is wasn’t God making the decision, it was you making the decision. You don’t have to wait for Judgment Day because you have already determined what your fate is going to be, based on your own understanding of the bible means or what other people have told you. You don’t have to what for God. You don’t have to worry about falling from your own stability.
**
2 Peter
Chapter 3
14 Therefore, beloved, since you await these things, be eager to be found without spot or blemish before him, at peace.
16 speaking of these things as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand **that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures. **
17 Therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, be on your guard **not to be led into the error **of the unprincipled and to fall from your own stability.
18 But grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory now and to the day of eternity. (Amen.)
**
I guess one that has absolute certainty that they are already saved (forever), with absolutely zero chances of loosing their “guaranteed” entrance into heaven, don’t need to be bothered by this verse -“since you await these things, be eager to be found without spot or blemish before him, at peace.” Because Judgment Day does not apply to you. You already know with absolute certainty, that you can not fall from grace and will go to straight to heaven.Right? So does that mean everybody has a different Judgment Day? If the guarantee of Heaven happens for you the day you are “saved”, that would be your Judgment Day right? Because, that would be the day (for you) that God decided that you were going to Heaven.
Unless of course, is wasn’t God making the decision, it was you making the decision. You don’t have to wait for Judgment Day because you have already determined what your fate is going to be, based on your own understanding of the bible means or what other people have told you. You don’t have to what for God. You don’t have to worry about falling from your own stability.
U
unworthysinner
Guest
Jimmy B said:
1 John 4:17-21
17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. 19 We love him, because he first loved us. 20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? 21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
2 Peter 2:9
9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
Romans 5:1-21
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; 4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope: 5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. 12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17 For if by one man’sd offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offencee of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
U
unworthysinner
Guest
just fyi…
**EXCURSUS ON APOSTASY **
Apostates are people who hear the gospel, make a profession of being Christians, become identified with a Christian church, and then abandon their profession of faith, decisively repudiate Christ, desert the Christian fellowship, and take their place with enemies of the Lord Jesus Christ. Apostasy is a sin which can be committed only by unbelievers, not by those who are deceived but by those who knowingly, willfully, and maliciously turn against the Lord.
It should not be confused with the sin of the average unbeliever who hears the gospel but does nothing about it. For instance, a man may fail to respond to Christ after repeated invitations from the Holy Spirit. But he is not an apostate. He can still be saved if he will commit himself to the Savior. Of course, if he dies in unbelief, he is lost forever, but he is not hopeless as long as he is capable of exercising faith in the Lord.
Apostasy should not be confused with backsliding. A true believer may wander very far away from Christ. Through sin his fellowship with God is shattered. He may even reach the point where he is no longer recognized as a Christian. But he can be restored to full fellowship as soon as he confesses and forsakes his sin (1 Jn. 1:9).
Apostasy is not the same as the unpardonable sin mentioned in the Gospels. That was the sin of attributing the miracles of the Lord Jesus to the prince of the demons. His miracles were actually performed in the power of the Holy Spirit. To attribute them to the devil was tantamount to blaspheming the Holy Spirit. It implied that the Holy Spirit was the devil. Jesus said that such a sin could never be forgiven, either in that age or in the age to come (Mark 3:22–30). Apostasy is similar to blasphemy against the Holy Spirit in that it is an eternal sin, but there the resemblance ends.
I believe that apostasy is the same as the sin leading to death, mentioned in 1 John 5:16b. John was writing about people who had professed to be believers and had participated in the activities of local churches. They then had imbibed the false teaching of the Gnostics and had spitefully left the Christian fellowship. Their deliberate departure indicated that they had never been truly born again (1 Jn. 2:19). By openly denying that Jesus is the Christ (1 Jn. 2:22), they had committed the sin leading to death, and it was useless to pray for their recovery (1 Jn. 5:16b).
Some earnest Christians are troubled when they read Hebrews 6 and similar passages. Satan uses these verses especially to unsettle believers who are having physical, mental, or emotional difficulties. They fear that they have fallen away from Christ and that there is no hope for restoration. They worry that they have drifted beyond redemption’s point. The fact that they are even concerned about it is conclusive evidence that they are not apostates! An apostate would not have any such fears; he would brazenly repudiate Christ.
If the sin of apostasy does not apply to believers, to whom then does it apply in our day? It applies, for instance, to a young man who makes a profession of faith in Christ and seems to go on brightly for a while, but then something happens in his life. Perhaps he experiences bitter persecution. Perhaps he falls into gross immorality. Or perhaps he goes off to college and is shaken by the anti-Christian arguments of atheistic teachers. With full knowledge of the truth, he deliberately turns away from it. He completely renounces Christ and viciously tramples on every sacred fundamental doctrine of the Christian faith. The Bible says it is impossible to restore such a one to repentance, and experience corroborates the Bible. We have known many who have apostatized from Christ, but we have never known one who has returned to Him.
As we approach the end of this age, we can expect a rising tide of apostasy (2 Thess. 2:3; 1 Tim. 4:1). Therefore the warning against falling away becomes more relevant with every day that passes.
MacDonald, W., & Farstad, A. (1997, c1995). Believer’s Bible Commentary : Old and New Testaments (Heb 6:7). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.
**EXCURSUS ON APOSTASY **
Apostates are people who hear the gospel, make a profession of being Christians, become identified with a Christian church, and then abandon their profession of faith, decisively repudiate Christ, desert the Christian fellowship, and take their place with enemies of the Lord Jesus Christ. Apostasy is a sin which can be committed only by unbelievers, not by those who are deceived but by those who knowingly, willfully, and maliciously turn against the Lord.
It should not be confused with the sin of the average unbeliever who hears the gospel but does nothing about it. For instance, a man may fail to respond to Christ after repeated invitations from the Holy Spirit. But he is not an apostate. He can still be saved if he will commit himself to the Savior. Of course, if he dies in unbelief, he is lost forever, but he is not hopeless as long as he is capable of exercising faith in the Lord.
Apostasy should not be confused with backsliding. A true believer may wander very far away from Christ. Through sin his fellowship with God is shattered. He may even reach the point where he is no longer recognized as a Christian. But he can be restored to full fellowship as soon as he confesses and forsakes his sin (1 Jn. 1:9).
Apostasy is not the same as the unpardonable sin mentioned in the Gospels. That was the sin of attributing the miracles of the Lord Jesus to the prince of the demons. His miracles were actually performed in the power of the Holy Spirit. To attribute them to the devil was tantamount to blaspheming the Holy Spirit. It implied that the Holy Spirit was the devil. Jesus said that such a sin could never be forgiven, either in that age or in the age to come (Mark 3:22–30). Apostasy is similar to blasphemy against the Holy Spirit in that it is an eternal sin, but there the resemblance ends.
I believe that apostasy is the same as the sin leading to death, mentioned in 1 John 5:16b. John was writing about people who had professed to be believers and had participated in the activities of local churches. They then had imbibed the false teaching of the Gnostics and had spitefully left the Christian fellowship. Their deliberate departure indicated that they had never been truly born again (1 Jn. 2:19). By openly denying that Jesus is the Christ (1 Jn. 2:22), they had committed the sin leading to death, and it was useless to pray for their recovery (1 Jn. 5:16b).
Some earnest Christians are troubled when they read Hebrews 6 and similar passages. Satan uses these verses especially to unsettle believers who are having physical, mental, or emotional difficulties. They fear that they have fallen away from Christ and that there is no hope for restoration. They worry that they have drifted beyond redemption’s point. The fact that they are even concerned about it is conclusive evidence that they are not apostates! An apostate would not have any such fears; he would brazenly repudiate Christ.
If the sin of apostasy does not apply to believers, to whom then does it apply in our day? It applies, for instance, to a young man who makes a profession of faith in Christ and seems to go on brightly for a while, but then something happens in his life. Perhaps he experiences bitter persecution. Perhaps he falls into gross immorality. Or perhaps he goes off to college and is shaken by the anti-Christian arguments of atheistic teachers. With full knowledge of the truth, he deliberately turns away from it. He completely renounces Christ and viciously tramples on every sacred fundamental doctrine of the Christian faith. The Bible says it is impossible to restore such a one to repentance, and experience corroborates the Bible. We have known many who have apostatized from Christ, but we have never known one who has returned to Him.
As we approach the end of this age, we can expect a rising tide of apostasy (2 Thess. 2:3; 1 Tim. 4:1). Therefore the warning against falling away becomes more relevant with every day that passes.
MacDonald, W., & Farstad, A. (1997, c1995). Believer’s Bible Commentary : Old and New Testaments (Heb 6:7). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.
P
Pax
Guest
unworthysinner,
Please read the first paragraph from EXCURSUS ON APOSTASY again:
“Apostates are people who hear the gospel, make a profession of being Christians, become identified with a Christian church, and then abandon their profession of faith, decisively repudiate Christ, desert the Christian fellowship, and take their place with enemies of the Lord Jesus Christ. Apostasy is a sin which can be committed only by unbelievers, not by those who are deceived but by those who knowingly, willfully, and maliciously turn against the Lord.”
The author states that apostasy is a sin which can be committed only by unbelievers. Please be aware that this is an absolute contradiction in terms as it applies to the definition. The author’s arguments thereafter are nothing more than an attempt to explain away a definition and a term which negates his belief. Scripture does not contain anything concerning apostasy that would lead one to the conclusion [in bold print] that is stated by the author.
Please read the first paragraph from EXCURSUS ON APOSTASY again:
“Apostates are people who hear the gospel, make a profession of being Christians, become identified with a Christian church, and then abandon their profession of faith, decisively repudiate Christ, desert the Christian fellowship, and take their place with enemies of the Lord Jesus Christ. Apostasy is a sin which can be committed only by unbelievers, not by those who are deceived but by those who knowingly, willfully, and maliciously turn against the Lord.”
The author states that apostasy is a sin which can be committed only by unbelievers. Please be aware that this is an absolute contradiction in terms as it applies to the definition. The author’s arguments thereafter are nothing more than an attempt to explain away a definition and a term which negates his belief. Scripture does not contain anything concerning apostasy that would lead one to the conclusion [in bold print] that is stated by the author.
G
goodwidj99
Guest
All,
I have been atheist for the first 24 years of my life. About 7 months ago, I entered the RCIA process. Last week I was baptised, confirmed, given the roual treatment. I have read the entire conversation on this thread and I may have some usefull insight being new to the faith (OF CHRIST).
I have noticed that different denominations are so ingrained with their teachings that they miss the entire point that God (and Jesus for that matter) was trying to make. I may be new to religion, but with intensive study, I have learned a lot.
When people of the faith argue between “your Church or my Church” they should really be concerned with the church of god (notice the use of capitol and lower-case lettering in “church”). In reality, we all worship the same God; we just have our own different ways of doing so. Of course there are certain actions that Jesus to be avoided, and others he wanted to specificly be carried out. What he wanted most of all, was all of his people to live together in peace and harmony within his name. When we fall away from the important things and start worrying about definitions like a bunch of lawyers, we become like the Pharisees.
Catholics have many traditions that protestants don’t understand, and likewise the reverse. WHO CARES! We all love Christ and what he did for us. Instead of saying, “I don’t like the way you see things… you’re wrong!” why not say, “You love Jesus? So do I!!!”
On the subject of OSAS. Who Has the right to say what is correct. I think it dangerous to believe that a protestant can go around doing anything he wants without fear of final judgement. But on the same note; Catholics have the sacriment of reconciliation (which contrary to popular belief, is not asking a priest to forgive you for the sins that god is concerned with. It is asking for the community’s forgiveness so you can confidently ask god for forgiverness.) So, both denominations have an escape rout…
Thank you all for a very informitive time.
Peace be with all.
I have been atheist for the first 24 years of my life. About 7 months ago, I entered the RCIA process. Last week I was baptised, confirmed, given the roual treatment. I have read the entire conversation on this thread and I may have some usefull insight being new to the faith (OF CHRIST).
I have noticed that different denominations are so ingrained with their teachings that they miss the entire point that God (and Jesus for that matter) was trying to make. I may be new to religion, but with intensive study, I have learned a lot.
When people of the faith argue between “your Church or my Church” they should really be concerned with the church of god (notice the use of capitol and lower-case lettering in “church”). In reality, we all worship the same God; we just have our own different ways of doing so. Of course there are certain actions that Jesus to be avoided, and others he wanted to specificly be carried out. What he wanted most of all, was all of his people to live together in peace and harmony within his name. When we fall away from the important things and start worrying about definitions like a bunch of lawyers, we become like the Pharisees.
Catholics have many traditions that protestants don’t understand, and likewise the reverse. WHO CARES! We all love Christ and what he did for us. Instead of saying, “I don’t like the way you see things… you’re wrong!” why not say, “You love Jesus? So do I!!!”
On the subject of OSAS. Who Has the right to say what is correct. I think it dangerous to believe that a protestant can go around doing anything he wants without fear of final judgement. But on the same note; Catholics have the sacriment of reconciliation (which contrary to popular belief, is not asking a priest to forgive you for the sins that god is concerned with. It is asking for the community’s forgiveness so you can confidently ask god for forgiverness.) So, both denominations have an escape rout…
Thank you all for a very informitive time.
Peace be with all.
P
Pax
Guest
goodwidj99,
I agree with the spirit of what you have said, but I believe matters of doctrine are extremely important. The importance of doctrine is covered well in Paul’s letters to Timothy.
At the risk of sounding like a lawyer and a Pharisee, I am submitting the following for consideration.
I carefully analyzed EXCURSUS ON APOSTASY and discovered something rather interesting. The author does nothing to establish or prove by the use of scripture, logic, or linguistics that it is “unbelievers” that commit apostasy. Instead the author makes an assumption and then states it as a fact. No argument is presented to prove this assumption.
Since this became clear to me I decided to run an experiment. I have deleted from the essay three statements. None of these statements are lines of argument. They are simply declarations of the assumption that only unbelievers can commit apostasy. The first of these statements reads as follows:
“Apostasy is a sin which can be committed only by unbelievers, not by those who are deceived but by those who knowingly, willfully, and maliciously turn against the Lord.” This is taken from the opening paragraph and is stated without any previous foundation to prove that the statement is true.
The next statement that I removed is: “Their deliberate departure indicated that they had never been truly born again (1 Jn. 2:19).” This statement is also without foundation. The author did attempt to use 1 Jn. 2:19 to substantiate his point, but the context of this verse indicates clearly that John is talking about false teachers in the spirit of the antichrist. He is not talking about apostasy, and never uses the term or anything like it anywhere in his letter.
The final statement (in this instance, a question) that I removed is: “If the sin of apostasy does not apply to believers, to whom then does it apply in our day?” This time the author poses a question that contains the assumption that he simply declares to be factual without foundation or argument.
I have reproduced below the essay without the three sentences discussed above. An objective reading of the essay without the three sentences clearly shows that there is nothing in the essay that would lead one to conclude that apostasy refers to unbelievers, or that only unbelievers can commit apostasy. In reality, if one knows what the word apostasy means, one would logically conclude from the essay that it is indeed “believers” that commit apostasy. The author, in this case, has committed some serious errors in logic, has failed to make an argument, and is operating from an assumption that disregards the definition of the word apostasy. An honest reading of the edited essay below should make this abundantly clear.
EXCURSUS ON APOSTASY
Apostates are people who hear the gospel, make a profession of being Christians, become identified with a Christian church, and then abandon their profession of faith, decisively repudiate Christ, desert the Christian fellowship, and take their place with enemies of the Lord Jesus Christ.
It should not be confused with the sin of the average unbeliever who hears the gospel but does nothing about it. For instance, a man may fail to respond to Christ after repeated invitations from the Holy Spirit. But he is not an apostate. He can still be saved if he will commit himself to the Savior. Of course, if he dies in unbelief, he is lost forever, but he is not hopeless as long as he is capable of exercising faith in the Lord.
Apostasy should not be confused with backsliding. A true believer may wander very far away from Christ. Through sin his fellowship with God is shattered. He may even reach the point where he is no longer recognized as a Christian. But he can be restored to full fellowship as soon as he confesses and forsakes his sin (1 Jn. 1:9).
Apostasy is not the same as the unpardonable sin mentioned in the Gospels. That was the sin of attributing the miracles of the Lord Jesus to the prince of the demons. His miracles were actually performed in the power of the Holy Spirit. To attribute them to the devil was tantamount to blaspheming the Holy Spirit. It implied that the Holy Spirit was the devil. Jesus said that such a sin could never be forgiven, either in that age or in the age to come (Mark 3:22–30). Apostasy is similar to blasphemy against the Holy Spirit in that it is an eternal sin, but there the resemblance ends.
I believe that apostasy is the same as the sin leading to death, mentioned in 1 John 5:16b. John was writing about people who had professed to be believers and had participated in the activities of local churches. They then had imbibed the false teaching of the Gnostics and had spitefully left the Christian fellowship. By openly denying that Jesus is the Christ (1 Jn. 2:22), they had committed the sin leading to death, and it was useless to pray for their recovery (1 Jn. 5:16b).
cont. on next post
I agree with the spirit of what you have said, but I believe matters of doctrine are extremely important. The importance of doctrine is covered well in Paul’s letters to Timothy.
At the risk of sounding like a lawyer and a Pharisee, I am submitting the following for consideration.
I carefully analyzed EXCURSUS ON APOSTASY and discovered something rather interesting. The author does nothing to establish or prove by the use of scripture, logic, or linguistics that it is “unbelievers” that commit apostasy. Instead the author makes an assumption and then states it as a fact. No argument is presented to prove this assumption.
Since this became clear to me I decided to run an experiment. I have deleted from the essay three statements. None of these statements are lines of argument. They are simply declarations of the assumption that only unbelievers can commit apostasy. The first of these statements reads as follows:
“Apostasy is a sin which can be committed only by unbelievers, not by those who are deceived but by those who knowingly, willfully, and maliciously turn against the Lord.” This is taken from the opening paragraph and is stated without any previous foundation to prove that the statement is true.
The next statement that I removed is: “Their deliberate departure indicated that they had never been truly born again (1 Jn. 2:19).” This statement is also without foundation. The author did attempt to use 1 Jn. 2:19 to substantiate his point, but the context of this verse indicates clearly that John is talking about false teachers in the spirit of the antichrist. He is not talking about apostasy, and never uses the term or anything like it anywhere in his letter.
The final statement (in this instance, a question) that I removed is: “If the sin of apostasy does not apply to believers, to whom then does it apply in our day?” This time the author poses a question that contains the assumption that he simply declares to be factual without foundation or argument.
I have reproduced below the essay without the three sentences discussed above. An objective reading of the essay without the three sentences clearly shows that there is nothing in the essay that would lead one to conclude that apostasy refers to unbelievers, or that only unbelievers can commit apostasy. In reality, if one knows what the word apostasy means, one would logically conclude from the essay that it is indeed “believers” that commit apostasy. The author, in this case, has committed some serious errors in logic, has failed to make an argument, and is operating from an assumption that disregards the definition of the word apostasy. An honest reading of the edited essay below should make this abundantly clear.
EXCURSUS ON APOSTASY
Apostates are people who hear the gospel, make a profession of being Christians, become identified with a Christian church, and then abandon their profession of faith, decisively repudiate Christ, desert the Christian fellowship, and take their place with enemies of the Lord Jesus Christ.
It should not be confused with the sin of the average unbeliever who hears the gospel but does nothing about it. For instance, a man may fail to respond to Christ after repeated invitations from the Holy Spirit. But he is not an apostate. He can still be saved if he will commit himself to the Savior. Of course, if he dies in unbelief, he is lost forever, but he is not hopeless as long as he is capable of exercising faith in the Lord.
Apostasy should not be confused with backsliding. A true believer may wander very far away from Christ. Through sin his fellowship with God is shattered. He may even reach the point where he is no longer recognized as a Christian. But he can be restored to full fellowship as soon as he confesses and forsakes his sin (1 Jn. 1:9).
Apostasy is not the same as the unpardonable sin mentioned in the Gospels. That was the sin of attributing the miracles of the Lord Jesus to the prince of the demons. His miracles were actually performed in the power of the Holy Spirit. To attribute them to the devil was tantamount to blaspheming the Holy Spirit. It implied that the Holy Spirit was the devil. Jesus said that such a sin could never be forgiven, either in that age or in the age to come (Mark 3:22–30). Apostasy is similar to blasphemy against the Holy Spirit in that it is an eternal sin, but there the resemblance ends.
I believe that apostasy is the same as the sin leading to death, mentioned in 1 John 5:16b. John was writing about people who had professed to be believers and had participated in the activities of local churches. They then had imbibed the false teaching of the Gnostics and had spitefully left the Christian fellowship. By openly denying that Jesus is the Christ (1 Jn. 2:22), they had committed the sin leading to death, and it was useless to pray for their recovery (1 Jn. 5:16b).
cont. on next post
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Pax
Guest
Some earnest Christians are troubled when they read Hebrews 6 and similar passages. Satan uses these verses especially to unsettle believers who are having physical, mental, or emotional difficulties. They fear that they have fallen away from Christ and that there is no hope for restoration. They worry that they have drifted beyond redemption’s point. The fact that they are even concerned about it is conclusive evidence that they are not apostates! An apostate would not have any such fears; he would brazenly repudiate Christ.
It applies, for instance, to a young man who makes a profession of faith in Christ and seems to go on brightly for a while, but then something happens in his life. Perhaps he experiences bitter persecution. Perhaps he falls into gross immorality. Or perhaps he goes off to college and is shaken by the anti-Christian arguments of atheistic teachers. With full knowledge of the truth, he deliberately turns away from it. He completely renounces Christ and viciously tramples on every sacred fundamental doctrine of the Christian faith. The Bible says it is impossible to restore such a one to repentance, and experience corroborates the Bible. We have known many who have apostatized from Christ, but we have never known one who has returned to Him.
As we approach the end of this age, we can expect a rising tide of apostasy (2 Thess. 2:3; 1 Tim. 4:1). Therefore the warning against falling away becomes more relevant with every day that passes.
MacDonald, W., & Farstad, A. (1997, c1995). Believer’s Bible Commentary : Old and New Testaments (Heb 6:7). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.
It applies, for instance, to a young man who makes a profession of faith in Christ and seems to go on brightly for a while, but then something happens in his life. Perhaps he experiences bitter persecution. Perhaps he falls into gross immorality. Or perhaps he goes off to college and is shaken by the anti-Christian arguments of atheistic teachers. With full knowledge of the truth, he deliberately turns away from it. He completely renounces Christ and viciously tramples on every sacred fundamental doctrine of the Christian faith. The Bible says it is impossible to restore such a one to repentance, and experience corroborates the Bible. We have known many who have apostatized from Christ, but we have never known one who has returned to Him.
As we approach the end of this age, we can expect a rising tide of apostasy (2 Thess. 2:3; 1 Tim. 4:1). Therefore the warning against falling away becomes more relevant with every day that passes.
MacDonald, W., & Farstad, A. (1997, c1995). Believer’s Bible Commentary : Old and New Testaments (Heb 6:7). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.
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unworthysinner
Guest
Hebrews 6 in context
In order to have a proper understanding of the teaching of Hebrews 6:4-6, it is necessary to study the context. In Hebrews 5:10, the Lord Jesus is referred to as “a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.” Continuing on in verses 11-14 it says, “Concerning him we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food. For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.”
Then comes the exhortation of the opening verse of the sixth chapter, in which the writer calls upon his Hebrew brethren, who have not yet received Christ although they have come to a knowledge of Him, to declare themselves openly for Christ. The Old Testament was their elementary school, their kindergarten, the place of first things or principles. The time had now come for them to graduate. The law was their schoolmaster to lead them to Christ that they might be justified by faith (Galatians 3:24). He writes now to them saying, “Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity [the same Greek word as is in the proceeding verse is translated “full age”], not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.” (Hebrews 6:1-2) All these are Old Testament doctrines. The apostle is exhorting the Hebrews to move forward to Christ, to whom all these doctrines pointed. “And this we will do, if God permits. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened [as the Hebrews had been] and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of [literally, companions, those who go along with] the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God [this had come to them through the ages by the prophets] and the powers of the age to come [these were the miracles they had witnessed], and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.” (Hebrews 6:3-6)
The Hebrew recipients of this letter were probably convicted of the truth of the gospel message without actually fully accepting it. So in that case they would not be genuine believers. The writer of Hebrew’s warning in this passage is similar to that of Hebrews 4:11. Hypocrites among the recipients of the gospel have heard the truth repeatedly without an appropriate response. If they proceeded in their plans to return to Judaism, it would be “impossible” for them to genuinely repent since their hearts would have become hardened.
In order to have a proper understanding of the teaching of Hebrews 6:4-6, it is necessary to study the context. In Hebrews 5:10, the Lord Jesus is referred to as “a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.” Continuing on in verses 11-14 it says, “Concerning him we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food. For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.”
Then comes the exhortation of the opening verse of the sixth chapter, in which the writer calls upon his Hebrew brethren, who have not yet received Christ although they have come to a knowledge of Him, to declare themselves openly for Christ. The Old Testament was their elementary school, their kindergarten, the place of first things or principles. The time had now come for them to graduate. The law was their schoolmaster to lead them to Christ that they might be justified by faith (Galatians 3:24). He writes now to them saying, “Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity [the same Greek word as is in the proceeding verse is translated “full age”], not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.” (Hebrews 6:1-2) All these are Old Testament doctrines. The apostle is exhorting the Hebrews to move forward to Christ, to whom all these doctrines pointed. “And this we will do, if God permits. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened [as the Hebrews had been] and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of [literally, companions, those who go along with] the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God [this had come to them through the ages by the prophets] and the powers of the age to come [these were the miracles they had witnessed], and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.” (Hebrews 6:3-6)
The Hebrew recipients of this letter were probably convicted of the truth of the gospel message without actually fully accepting it. So in that case they would not be genuine believers. The writer of Hebrew’s warning in this passage is similar to that of Hebrews 4:11. Hypocrites among the recipients of the gospel have heard the truth repeatedly without an appropriate response. If they proceeded in their plans to return to Judaism, it would be “impossible” for them to genuinely repent since their hearts would have become hardened.
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unworthysinner
Guest
There is nothing in this passage which speaks of a born-again person losing his salvation. This passage teaches there is no salvation for anyone unless they are found under the shed blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. If this passage was teaching that a true believer could loose his salvation, then it also would be teaching that once someone has been saved, then lost, he cannot be re-saved. This would counter the idea some Christians hold that one could fall away, and repent later and return to Christ to be saved.
Those who “fall away” are like the people the apostle John spoke about in 1 John 2:19:
“They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.”
One can come to the presence of God in apparent repentance without ever having a genuine fellowship with Him. (Luke 8:13, 13:27) Even Pharaoh repented for a season. But his returning to rebellion against God showed that his repentance was not genuine. (Exodus 9:27, 10:16-17) But of those who truly come to Christ in faith and are born again, Peter says:
“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.” (1 Peter 1:3-5)
“After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you.” (1 Peter 5:10) Finally, the author of Hebrews indicates the impossibilty of true believers losing their salvation. Hebrews 6:9 says, “But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way.” One of the “things that accompany salvation” is perseverance (Romans 15:5).
Those who “fall away” are like the people the apostle John spoke about in 1 John 2:19:
“They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.”
One can come to the presence of God in apparent repentance without ever having a genuine fellowship with Him. (Luke 8:13, 13:27) Even Pharaoh repented for a season. But his returning to rebellion against God showed that his repentance was not genuine. (Exodus 9:27, 10:16-17) But of those who truly come to Christ in faith and are born again, Peter says:
“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.” (1 Peter 1:3-5)
“After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you.” (1 Peter 5:10) Finally, the author of Hebrews indicates the impossibilty of true believers losing their salvation. Hebrews 6:9 says, “But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way.” One of the “things that accompany salvation” is perseverance (Romans 15:5).
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Pax
Guest
I have already addressed all of this before and you are simply wrong to contend that the author of Hebrews is addressing a “non-believing” Hebrew brother prior to verse 1 of chapter six. You even claim that the elementary teachings that are mentioned are merely teachings of the OT as your proof. This is really out there. First of all such things as repentence, the laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead are all NT doctrines. Moreover, I will give you a challenge that should clearly refute your contention. I challenge you to find the word “resurrection” in the OT of your Protestant bible.
The word “resurrection” is not found anywhere the OT in a Protestant bible.
The author of Hebrews uses the words “let us…go on to maturity.” Prior to this in Hebrews 5:12 he says, " For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need some one to teach you again the first principles of God’s word. You need milk, not solid food;" He is talking to the same audience about maturing here. He doesn’t shift from non-believers to believers.
The apostle Peter uses the same kind of language in talking to believers, and I have already demonstrated in a prior post that he was indeed talking to believers. In 1 Peter 2:2-3, he says, “Like newborn babes, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up to salvation; for you have tasted the kindness of the Lord.” The apostle Paul does the same thing in 1 Corinthians 3:2-3 when he says, “I fed you with milk, not solid food; for you were not ready for it; and even yet you are not ready,” Now we know that Paul is also talking to believers because in earlier passages he makes it clear that he is doing just that.
In Hebrews the author doesn’t mean at all what you contend. In fact he makes it quite clear what he means. The writer doesn’t refer to the immature as unsaved or non-believing. Instead in Hebrews 5:13-14 he says, “…for every one who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a child. But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their faculties trained by practice to distinguish good from evil.” The author says they should already be teachers in the word but they are still immature. He says they are** unskilled in the word of righteousness** and not mature. He in no way intimates that they are unbelievers. The Holy word of God could not be more clear in these passages.
The word “resurrection” is not found anywhere the OT in a Protestant bible.
The author of Hebrews uses the words “let us…go on to maturity.” Prior to this in Hebrews 5:12 he says, " For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need some one to teach you again the first principles of God’s word. You need milk, not solid food;" He is talking to the same audience about maturing here. He doesn’t shift from non-believers to believers.
The apostle Peter uses the same kind of language in talking to believers, and I have already demonstrated in a prior post that he was indeed talking to believers. In 1 Peter 2:2-3, he says, “Like newborn babes, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up to salvation; for you have tasted the kindness of the Lord.” The apostle Paul does the same thing in 1 Corinthians 3:2-3 when he says, “I fed you with milk, not solid food; for you were not ready for it; and even yet you are not ready,” Now we know that Paul is also talking to believers because in earlier passages he makes it clear that he is doing just that.
In Hebrews the author doesn’t mean at all what you contend. In fact he makes it quite clear what he means. The writer doesn’t refer to the immature as unsaved or non-believing. Instead in Hebrews 5:13-14 he says, “…for every one who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a child. But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their faculties trained by practice to distinguish good from evil.” The author says they should already be teachers in the word but they are still immature. He says they are** unskilled in the word of righteousness** and not mature. He in no way intimates that they are unbelievers. The Holy word of God could not be more clear in these passages.
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unworthysinner
Guest
This whole chapter talks, in a general sense, about the Jewish people losing their position as God’s chosen people because of unbelief, and God opening salvation up to the Gentiles (although it actually always was open to them). This passage does not refer to individuals falling away, but the entire Jewish people. Today God has temporarily turned away from the Jews and is calling a people for His name from among the Gentile nations. The day will come when God will again turn to the Jewish nation to fulfill His promises to them. Verses 24-26 make this plain. Paul is speaking in a general sense, not in a personal sense. A careful reading of this chapter illustrates this.
Those who perfectly fulfill God’s laws will live eternally, as Paul explains. However, he goes on in chapter 3 to explain that nobody lives up to that standard. Everybody falls short (Romans 3:9-23). As he writes in Galatians 3:22, all men have been shut up under sin. God’s laws are meant to be a tutor to lead us to salvation through faith in Christ (Galatians 3:21-25). Those who try to attain eternal life by following all of God’s laws will fail, and they’ll be rejecting the perfect righteousness of Christ in favor of their own imperfect righteousness (Jeremiah 23:6, Romans 9:30-10:4, Philippians 3:9). As Paul explains in Romans 2:12, everybody who sins is lost. And nobody is without sin. This is why those who are saved must be saved by grace (Romans 4:4, 4:16) as a *free gift *(Romans 3:24, 5:16-17, 6:23), not as a reward attained through works. Anybody who is so deceived as to think that he’s living up to the standards of Romans 2 should go on to chapter 3 to be undeceived.
The “if she continues” you highlighted is plural in the greek. In other words it would read. Yet woman(one) will be saved through bearing children, if she(many) continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty.
There are a couple problems with this passage to mean that once saved, always saved is not biblical.
- It refers only to women(so are you saying only women can lose their salvation?).
- Salvation is by grace alone through faith alone, not works. Also no other human can other human(something that is ignored by infant baptism). It is my faith that saves me, my faith cannot save you. Hence, the woman’s children continuing in faith AND love AND holiness, WITH modesty has no effect on her(singular) eternal destiny. The above is not the gospel of salvation(no mention of believing Christ, in His blood cleansing sins, no message to repent)
- If this meant salvation unto eternal life then women would lose their salvation by what they dress
Now I will take a moment and say that OSAS, is most of all not a license to sin. God purposes good works for believers(eph. 2:10). True believers should walk in the spirit, not in the flesh. Anyone claiming OSAS and says they can live just any way they want, is most likely not a believer(God knows for sure). The works are proof of salvation not the way of salvation, nor do they endanger salvation.
Now if we can lose salvation, how do we regain it? Through confession, good works, etc. If you are honest with yourself, you know it is not possible to confess every sin (there are many everyone commits everyday). How many of us measure up to the righteousness of God(none), enough to only confess a handful of sins everyday. Now how many good works “outweigh” the bad? The bible says all OUR righteousness is filthy rags. Which filthy rag should you show God to let you into His kingdom at the end of your life?
continued…
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unworthysinner
Guest
On the surface, the verse seems to teach that believers continued salvation depends on their continuing **in the faith. **If this is so, how can this verse be reconciled with other portions of the word of God, such as John 10:28-29, which declare that no sheep of Christ can ever perish? In seeking to answer this question, I would like to state at the outset that the eternal security of the believer is a blessed truth which is set forth clearly in the pages of the NT. However, the Scriptures also tech, as in this verse, that true faith always has the quality of permanence, and that one who has really been born of God will go on faithfully to the end. Continuance is a proof of reality. The Spirit of God has seen fit to put many of these so-called “if” passagesin the word of God in order to challenge all who profess the name of Christ as to the reality of their profession. I would not want to say anything that might dull the sharp edge of these passages.
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2Rollin_Stoned
Guest
I don’t see how YOU can reconcile your ideas with the stuff Catholics have offered in answer. You just seem to ignore them and bull right on with your opposition. That would indicate to me that your would rather preach than dialogue :ehh: .
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unworthysinner
Guest
Resurrection of the dead is actually what I wrote and what the verse says. It is in fact in the OT. For examples, look to Job 19:25-27, Psalm 17:15 and implied in Isaiah 53:10-12. Now let me be more precise since you have a definite problem with even entertaining the idea of OSAS. The book of Hebrews is not addressed to only believers. It is a mixed audience and the main reason the book was written is because there were some who had heard the truth(but not truly put their faith in Christ) but were considering returning to Judaism. No where in Hebrews 6:1-6 is mentioned faith “in Christ”, the blood of Christ, grace, etc. These are not people that have “saving” faith. They would be considered faithful Jews(much like the ones today) but have not believed in Christ, so they have not been given eternal life.
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unworthysinner
Guest
2Rollin'Stoned:
I don’t see how YOU can reconcile your ideas with the stuff Catholics have offered in answer. You just seem to ignore them and bull right on with your opposition. That would indicate to me that your would rather preach than dialogue :ehh: .
Perhaps we should also re-write John 3:16(which started this post) to read:
For God so loved the world(especially Mary), that he gave his only begotten Son(to be an unbloody sacrifice on thousands of alters everyday), that whosoever believeth in him(but first gets baptized, do good works, receive the eucharist, confess to a priest, etc at infintem) should not perish, but have conditional everlasting life that will be gained and lost hundreds of times in a lifetime.
Now before you get mad at me, all of that is Catholic doctrine. I am using absurdity to illustrate a point… Does that seem to be in harmony with the rest of the Word of God? All the passages used to break down OSAS are at best unclear or out of context passages. You can’t be any clearer than this…
The believer’s life in Christ is said to be everlasting or eternal. That is, it will never end, (John 3:16; Romans 6:23). Believers will never perish, nor will anyone be able to pluck them out of the Father’s hand (John 10:28-29). They are said to be “kept by the power of God” (1 Peter 1:5); kept for Jesus Christ (Jude 1). Christ declared that all who believe have eternal life, and shall not come into condemnation (John 5:24). He is able to save them to the uttermost" (Hebrews 7:25).
The entire Trinity is involved in the safekeeping of Christians. The Father has given believers to the Son (John 17:9), the Son has asked that they be kept (John 17:11, 20), and the Holy Spirit dwells within every believer forever (John 14:16; 1 Corinthians 6:19). These revealed truths are according to God’s divine purpose and promise. Passages which seem, to some, to contradict eternal security are found to be related to rewards, chastisement, and the fact that an absence of good works reveals a lack of genuine faith (Philippians 2:12-13). Those who believe in conditional salvation must now consider whether they, in fact, have trusted the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord.
Could it be that some are trusting in their own performance in the Christian life to keep their salvation rather than trusting in the finished work of the Jesus on the cross? The conditional view of salvation not only denies God’s word, but it also produces a legalistic, fear-inspiring, and experience-oriented Christian walk. How can one share the riches of God’s grace to the unsaved when he believes his own salvation is not sure?
I don’t see how YOU can reconcile your ideas with the stuff Catholics have offered in answer. You just seem to ignore them and bull right on with your opposition. That would indicate to me that your would rather preach than dialogue :ehh: .
Perhaps we should also re-write John 3:16(which started this post) to read:
For God so loved the world(especially Mary), that he gave his only begotten Son(to be an unbloody sacrifice on thousands of alters everyday), that whosoever believeth in him(but first gets baptized, do good works, receive the eucharist, confess to a priest, etc at infintem) should not perish, but have conditional everlasting life that will be gained and lost hundreds of times in a lifetime.
Now before you get mad at me, all of that is Catholic doctrine. I am using absurdity to illustrate a point… Does that seem to be in harmony with the rest of the Word of God? All the passages used to break down OSAS are at best unclear or out of context passages. You can’t be any clearer than this…
The believer’s life in Christ is said to be everlasting or eternal. That is, it will never end, (John 3:16; Romans 6:23). Believers will never perish, nor will anyone be able to pluck them out of the Father’s hand (John 10:28-29). They are said to be “kept by the power of God” (1 Peter 1:5); kept for Jesus Christ (Jude 1). Christ declared that all who believe have eternal life, and shall not come into condemnation (John 5:24). He is able to save them to the uttermost" (Hebrews 7:25).
The entire Trinity is involved in the safekeeping of Christians. The Father has given believers to the Son (John 17:9), the Son has asked that they be kept (John 17:11, 20), and the Holy Spirit dwells within every believer forever (John 14:16; 1 Corinthians 6:19). These revealed truths are according to God’s divine purpose and promise. Passages which seem, to some, to contradict eternal security are found to be related to rewards, chastisement, and the fact that an absence of good works reveals a lack of genuine faith (Philippians 2:12-13). Those who believe in conditional salvation must now consider whether they, in fact, have trusted the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord.
Could it be that some are trusting in their own performance in the Christian life to keep their salvation rather than trusting in the finished work of the Jesus on the cross? The conditional view of salvation not only denies God’s word, but it also produces a legalistic, fear-inspiring, and experience-oriented Christian walk. How can one share the riches of God’s grace to the unsaved when he believes his own salvation is not sure?
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Pax
Guest
You have not produced a verse from the OT that has the word “resurrection” contained therein. Your first two references are allusions to the resurrection. Your third reference is not. You must be unaware of the dispute among the Jews of the OT concerning the resurrection. The Sadducees were a priestly and aristocratic movement among the Jews. Acts 5:17 points out that the Jewish high priest was a Sadducee. The Sadducees denied the following:
- the resurrection
- belief in angels or spirits.
- divine providence
- rewards and punishments in the after life
- Status