Catholic vs. Protestant John 3:16?

[RyanL]

Unworthysinner,

Again, let me commend you for seeking to bring light to the world for the glory of God. In coming to us, however, it is critical that you do two things:

1. Understand what the Church teaches, not what some ex-Catholic says. I met an ex-Catholic the other day who had our teachings completely backwards, and he sought to lead me astray with him. A good source to learn what Catholics actually think is “Swear to God” by Scott Hahn. He is a former Protestant minister, and can speak to Protestant hearts. As far as I know, he’s in every Barnes and Noble (and you don’t even have to buy it!). It’s a really fast read. If you pick apart his writings, come and explain - we are all searchers for the truth and would like to hear.
2. Use your own thoughts. It is important that YOU reason this out, rather than relying on someone else’s words. Before you think this uncheritable, read the following:

gotquestions.org/Catholic-Biblical.html
gotquestions.org/before-Jesus.html

And those are just on this page of posts. Verses are just fine to quote, and even research on which verses to use, but leave the exegesis to your own mind (as that is EXACTLY what is required by your theology of Sola Scriptura).

Again, you are a treasure to God and we on this site would love to welcome you home. We will continue as long as you need. May the peace of Christ be always with you.

RyanL

 

[unworthysinner]

Prayer: The RCC teaches its members to not only pray to God but also to Mary and to the saints. The RCC goes so far as to state that all prayers must ultimately go through Mary before they get to God! Contrary to this, we are only taught in Scripture to pray to God (Matthew 6:9; Luke 18:1-7; etc.).

Better fire your sources…this is wrong-BIGTIME!
You have no understanding of the intercession of saints at all. Do you intercede for others? Do you ask for intercessional prayer by others? Your limited and biased interpretation of the scriptures has again messed you up. Also…if the early church recorded that they asked the departed saints to remember them before the Lord, then why shouldn’t we? There plenty of historical evidence that this is the case.

A former Catholic wrong? Obviously telling someone something when they are alive and are going to meet the Lord, and asking prayer from people long dead are two very different things. For saints to hear prayers(there are more than one) they would have to be omnipotent and omnipresent. Only God can do that, not one single created being has that power. Also there is(contrary to RCC) only ONE mediator and intercessor(no Mary does not come between us and Jesus) between God and man, the Lord Jesus Christ. There are plenty of Bible verses to pray for each other IN THIS LIFE. You could ask me to pray to God for something, but then you would not repeat it 49 more times to me(ie praying the Rosary). The false claim is that there is no Mary worship, but yet she occupies 50 prayers on the rosary to every one prayer to God, and no prayers to Jesus. Mary, nor any other departed saint can not hear one prayer let alone thousands or millions(1 billion Catholics worldwide).

Priesthood: The RCC teaches that there is a distinction between the clergy and the “lay people.” Whereas the New Testament teaches the priesthood of all believers (1 Peter 2:9).

Hmmm cute…but what about bishops…who shepherd the flocks of God? Besides…this is not the defacto practice among Protestants and other n-Cs, since I know from my own personal experience.

Doesn’t matter its in the word of God. There are those who shepherd the flock, but all believers are called saints, priests, and even kings(Rev 1:5), not because of ordination or corination but because of their faith in Christ alone.

Sacraments: The RCC teaches that we receive grace when we receive the sacraments of the church. But such teaching is nowhere found in Scripture.

Only if someone like you can convince all the world that the Eucharist is invalid. If so I wouldn’t waste my time being any sort of “Christian” Thank God you cannot. all you can do is blow off all the eucharistic passages and say they are all not what they clearly say.

John 6 is the one that is most commonly referred to for Christ to be in the Eucharist, but the wine is never mentioned. This is because the context is during the passover, the Lord’s supper had not yet happened. Also he uses the words “believe” in the same way he uses the words “eat”.

 

[unworthysinner]

Confession: The RCC teaches that unless we are hindered from doing so by some means beyond our control, the only way to have our sins forgiven is by confessing them to a priest.

Contrary to this, scripture teaches that we can confess our sins to God for forgiveness (1 John 1:9) and to also confess our sins one to another so that we can be strengthened in our battle against sin (James 5:16). The RCC uses certain statements of Christ to His disciples to support their practice.

Fire your source again since they misled you about this one as well. The sacrament of reconcilliation is for Mortal sins. veniel sins are confessed during the pentential; rites of the mass and by a sincere Act of Contrition, which is comparable to your own confessions. But you seeks anything upon which to disagree and attack the Catholic faith.

Got bad news for ya, every sin is mortal. The Bible says the “wages of sin is death(not venial)”, and “the soul that sinneth will die”. How do we avoid getting the wages so rightfully due us(eternal death), by being given the “gift of God eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord”. If we do sin after placing our faith in Christ, we are told to confess to who? God, not a priest(for which priest, every believer is a priest as stated earlier)

1 John 1:8-10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Mary: The RCC teaches, among other things that Mary is the Queen of Heaven, a perpetual virgin, and the co-redemptress who ascended

into heaven. Whereas in Scripture, she is portrayed as an obedient, believing servant of God, who became the mother of Jesus. None of the other attributes mentioned by the RCC are given to her in scripture and the idea of her being the co-redemptress and another mediator between God and man are not only extra-biblical (found only outside of scripture) but are also unbiblical (contrary to scripture) (Acts 4:12; 1 Timothy 2:5).

You will mess up a two-car funeral…ya know that? Mary was assumed into heaven by Our Lord and there is more than ample precedent for that since God did it to several other Holy people. There is indeed extrabiblical writings that tell of this and the silence of the NT is no hindrance to historic evidence. (Except in your mind…) I happen to know that the Marian doctrines of the acatholic Church are** indeed based upon scripture**, so I won’t listen to that propaganda.

The “assumption” of Enoch, Elijah, and Jesus is recorded faithfully in the Bible, but actually little is written about Mary. John had her living in his home, but even he didn’t write about her, nor he “assumption”. The biggest evidence against it is from the “Church” itself. Before 1950(when the assumption became dogma) there were shrines for Mary claiming to have flakes of her bone. I know because my grandfather lived at that time(he died a faithful Catholic).

Extrabiblical = indeed based on scripture
Now I realize you’ve been indoctrinated into the whole Marian doctrines, but do you realize how ludicrious a statement you just made?

 

[unworthysinner]

Eucharist: …

Boy… you must really have an ego to argue with the plain text of the NT about this one. Or else you’re just a really gullible person who is easily led astray. This is the most powerpacked doctrine of all and the fact that you deny it makes me just think it best if we all just throw up our hands and walk away from all discussion with you. This is one of those ones that we just look at each other and go “How’d he miss that?”

Covered this one already, but I’ll add onto it. Jesus when he was on the earth was bodily only in one place, of course His spirit was everywhere. When he was assumed into heaven, he stayed at the right hand of the Father. He is there bodily with the nails still in His precious feet and hands. For Biblical proof…

Hebrews 1:3
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Luke 22:67-69
67 Art thou the Christ? tell us. And he said unto them, If I tell you, ye will not believe:68And if I also askyou, ye will not answer me, nor let me go.69Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.

Ephesians 1:20

20 Which he wrought in Christ, when **he raised him from the dead, and set **him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

Colossians 3:1
1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

Hebrews 1:13
13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

1 Peter 3:21-22
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Matthew 26:64(Mark 14:62)
64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting** on** the right hand** of power**(now), and coming** in** the clouds** of heaven**(future).

Continued…

 

[unworthysinner]

Mark 16:19
19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

Acts 2:33-35
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord,** Sit thou on my right hand**, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

Acts 7:54-56
54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth. 55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Romans 8:34
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Hebrews 10:10-18 (KJV)

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their** sins and iniquities will I remember no more**. 18 Now where remission of these is, there is** no more** offering for sin.

Hebrews 12:1-2
1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Now that you know where to look, I’d encourage you to read around the verses I’ve quoted. Be like the bereans who

Acts 17:10-11
10 Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.

That’s all for now folks…May the Lord bless the reading of His Word

 

[unworthysinner]

Stone:

Where your analogy fails (as well as Catholicism) is that in repect to salvation the price was paid FOR US, in full, by Another: Jesus Christ.

“Knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ” (1 Pet. 1:18-19).

My post was a rebuttal to your idea that in Jn. 3:16 where it says, “might not perish” it means that it is possible for the believer to perish. But when read in its proper way, your interpretation is not possible. Just as the one who buys a house that he might not be homeless, will not be homeless because he has bought a house. Your whole idea of “missing payments” is from a Catholic mentality, not Biblical one. Certainly not from John 3:16. The believer in Jn. 3:16 has eternal life because he has believed.

It’s all so very simple.

You mean I have to make payments on top of what Christ has already put down(down payment, instead of the whole price)? Oh man, would I be in trouble if that were true, for I would have to be superior to the sacrifice of Christ. Surely an impossible feat.

 

[unworthysinner]

RyanL:

Unworthysinner,

Again, let me commend you for seeking to bring light to the world for the glory of God. In coming to us, however, it is critical that you do two things:

1. Understand what the Church teaches, not what some ex-Catholic says. I met an ex-Catholic the other day who had our teachings completely backwards, and he sought to lead me astray with him. A good source to learn what Catholics actually think is “Swear to God” by Scott Hahn. He is a former Protestant minister, and can speak to Protestant hearts. As far as I know, he’s in every Barnes and Noble (and you don’t even have to buy it!). It’s a really fast read. If you pick apart his writings, come and explain - we are all searchers for the truth and would like to hear.
2. Use your own thoughts. It is important that YOU reason this out, rather than relying on someone else’s words. Before you think this uncheritable, read the following:

gotquestions.org/Catholic-Biblical.html
gotquestions.org/before-Jesus.html

And those are just on this page of posts. Verses are just fine to quote, and even research on which verses to use, but leave the exegesis to your own mind (as that is EXACTLY what is required by your theology of Sola Scriptura).

Again, you are a treasure to God and we on this site would love to welcome you home. We will continue as long as you need. May the peace of Christ be always with you.

RyanL

RyanL,

I would much like to understand what each Catholic believes(it differs as great as Protestants I fear, so goes the phrase “cafeteria” Catholic) so I can better approach them and with love show them the Scriptures. I have never been a Catholic, and most of the Catholics I know would be considered “exCommunicated”. I do know what I observe from watching Catholic programs such as EWTN, that Catholic people have a sincere wish to follow God. The programs at times preach the Gospel. There does appear to be though attention drawn(that should be focused on Christ) to others, even statues(which is against the 2nd commandment-surely not something God would be pleased with). There is something else very disturbing, if Christ is not in the Eucharist, then it is idol worship. If the priest does not do his duty and Christ has not come, unwittingly Catholics have prostrated themselves before, only bread and only wine. Something I think would grip any God-loving and God-fearing Catholic.

God bless

 

[RyanL]

unworthysinner:

RyanL,

I would much like to understand what each Catholic believes(it differs as great as Protestants I fear, so goes the phrase “cafeteria” Catholic)

There is indeed much discord, much to my chagrin. Do not associate theologically with those who do not recognize the magisterium of the Church, or seek to learn Catholic doctrine from them. Most of us have received NO training in apologetics (as our first calling is to know, love, and serve God), nor been taught an understanding of Church doctrine beyond a 6th grade level - again, much to my chagrin. Be assured, however, that there is only ONE Catholic Church, and her teachings are ONE. Listen to HER, and not to misinformed evangelists of her words (as the vast majority of ex-Catholics surely are). Pax posts sound doctrine, and you would do well to understand what Pax posts in order to better understand Catholics.

unworthysinner:

I do know what I observe from watching Catholic programs such as EWTN, that Catholic people have a sincere wish to follow God.

EWTN is a great and trustworthy source. I recommend Fr. Corapi. Check the program schedule, and watch his programs. He will appeal to your evangelical calling. And yes, I would hope that EVERY christian has a sincere wish to follow God.

unworthysinner:

The programs at times preach the Gospel. There does appear to be though attention drawn(that should be focused on Christ) to others, even statues(which is against the 2nd commandment-surely not something God would be pleased with).

In my parish, we can’t afford statues yet, so we have to worship banners. (In case it didn’t come across, that was an attempt at humor.) Pop quiz - was it wrong for the followers of Moses to make a golden calf out of their jewelery? Answer: nope! Whaahhh?!? That’s right, nothing was wrong with their making the golden calf. Where they did do wrong was in worshiping the false god the calf represented. You may retort with Ex 20:4-5, but I would encourage you to re-read what GOD HIMSELF commanded them to do in Ex 25 (i.e., make images of things in heaven and earth). Remember, judge not by appearances, but judge with righteous judgement.

unworthysinner:

There is something else very disturbing, if Christ is not in the Eucharist, then it is idol worship.

True. If the Eucharist is NOT Jesus, it is idol worship. Flip side of the coin - what if it IS Jesus? Wouldn’t it then be a sin NOT to worship it? I sincerely await a direct answer to this question, no “buts” allowed.

unworthysinner:

If the priest does not do his duty and Christ has not come, unwittingly Catholics have prostrated themselves before, only bread and only wine.

The Church provides. God understands the intentions of our hearts. If you would like to discuss this more, I would encourage starting another thread, as there are Catholic answers to all of the questions you ask.

unworthysinner:

God bless

I humbly thank you. I ask that you intercede on my behalf and pray for me to the Lord our God to strengthen the prayers I lay at his feet (as I have many). I, in turn, will pray for your soul that you may continue to grow as a servant of God.

RyanL

 

[goodwidj99]

Scripture supports both views of the ongoing argument. Catholics hold one approach, Baptists another, Lutheran another, etc., etc. Myself arguing against OSAS to a protestant believer is like A protestant believer of OSAS trying to convince me that he’s right; it will never work! I believe what I believe, he believes what he believes and that’s that.

As far as unworthysinner’s assumptions of Catholic doctrine…
Mary, Confession, Eucharist, etc.
What? Do you really think that’s what Catholics believe?
Mary was important in God’s plan, period.
Confession is not demanded or required of God, it’s for the comfortable forgiveness of the community which you alienated so you can more confidently seek forgiveness from Christ.
The Eucharist is to bring you closer to Christ and hold you near, so you can be internally inspired to be the best Christian possible.

Catholics don’t believe that protestants “do it wrong”. We just believe we do what we feel is right.

 

[unworthysinner]

RyanL:

True. If the Eucharist is NOT Jesus, it is idol worship. Flip side of the coin - what if it IS Jesus? Wouldn’t it then be a sin NOT to worship it? I sincerely await a direct answer to this question, no “buts” allowed

I had the after thought of posting something just in case such logic was used. Its a good question, suffice it to say…non-Catholics have, nor claim to, no priest(or other person) who “consecrates” the “host” to turn it into “Christ”. So no, I have no fear of disobeying God and dishonoring Christ by not bowing down to the emblems of the Lord’s Supper. The Catholic problem of bowing down to only bread does still remain though.

 

[RyanL]

unworthysinner:

I had the after thought of posting something just in case such logic was used…non-Catholics have … no fear of disobeying God and dishonoring Christ by not bowing down to the emblems of the Lord’s Supper. The Catholic problem of bowing down to only bread does still remain though.

You’re ditching the question. If the Eucharist IS Jesus Christ, would we be sinning by not worshiping Him? Isn’t it only right and proper to bow down before the Lord God, Creator of the Universe, especially if He is SUBSTANTIALLY present before us? I have already conceded that it would be idolatry if He were not present, and I understand what your theology maintains. Mine is a simple question, and if you would, please provide a simple answer. Again, no “buts” allowed.

 

[reen12]

Dear RyanL,

“In my parish, we can’t afford statues yet, so we have to worship banners. (In case it didn’t come across, that was an attempt at humor.)” quote, RyanL

Well, it certainly got a laugh out of me.
You know, it’s gotten so I can’t stand the sight
of felt.

Thanks for helping to lighten things up.

reen12

 

[unworthysinner]

RyanL:

You’re ditching the question. If the Eucharist IS Jesus Christ, would we be sinning by not worshiping Him? Isn’t it only right and proper to bow down before the Lord God, Creator of the Universe, especially if He is SUBSTANTIALLY present before us? I have already conceded that it would be idolatry if He were not present, and I understand what your theology maintains. Mine is a simple question, and if you would, please provide a simple answer. Again, no “buts” allowed.

I didn’t ditch the question. The Eucharist(piece of bread) becomes “Christ” when the priest “consecrates it”(that might not be the exact word). If there is no such consecration, there is no Christ in the bread. Hence, no need to worship it. I don’t attend a Catholic church. Unless I’m severely misunderstanding(which I doubt) what happens during the Eucharist, then I answered your question.

Why would I bow down to a definite loaf of bread??? I don’t remember Christ saying he would come to earth as bread anyway.

In Christ

 

[Stone]

unworthysinner:

You mean I have to make payments on top of what Christ has already put down(down payment, instead of the whole price)? Oh man, would I be in trouble if that were true, for I would have to be superior to the sacrifice of Christ. Surely an impossible feat.

Yes, an amazing religious mentality, isn’t it? Especially in light of the clear teachings of Scripture regarding Christ’s once-for-all, substitutional sacrifice for the forgiveness of all sins. The Apostle Paul says to believers:

“For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body” (1 Cor. 6:20).

“You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men” (1 Cor. 7:23)

Doesn’t sound like a* “payment”* kind of salvation to me. You?

 

[RyanL]

unworthysinner:

I didn’t ditch the question. The Eucharist(piece of bread) becomes “Christ” when the priest “consecrates it”(that might not be the exact word). If there is no such consecration, there is no Christ in the bread. Hence, no need to worship it. I don’t attend a Catholic church. Unless I’m severely misunderstanding(which I doubt) what happens during the Eucharist, then I answered your question.

Perhaps I could paraphrase and you might understand what I’m saying by “ditching the question”.

I say: I know you don’t think it is, but if it WERE, would you be sinning not to worship it?

You say: We don’t claim that it is.

I say: You didn’t answer the question.

You say: This is what you claim happens, but I don’t believe it so it doesn’t matter. I have now answered your question.

Perhaps that may clear up why I still don’t think you’ve answered the question. It can be answered with a simple “yes/no”. IF the Eucharist WERE Jesus (regardless of what you THINK it is), would you be sinning by not worshiping the Eucharist?

unworthysinner:

I don’t remember Christ saying he would come to earth as bread anyway.

“‘I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.’ The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, ‘How can this man give us his flesh to eat?’” (John 6:51–52).

I await a simple yes/no answer. The charge of idolatry is not one to be made lightly, so I would like to examine this a little closer to see if it’s true.

As I offer intercessory prayers for you that you may continue to grow in Christ, I ask that you interceed for me to the Lord our God that my many prayers may be strengthened. May the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world, have mercy on us.

RyanL

 

[unworthysinner]

RyanL:

IF the Eucharist WERE Jesus (regardless of what you THINK it is), would you be sinning by not worshiping the Eucharist?

Ok, I will play devil’s advocate and become a faithful Roman Catholic for a moment. The answer is yes, I would sin by not bowing down/paying worship to Christ(even in the form of bread, which still looks, tastes, feels, smells just like bread). I would also sin by eating said Christ in the Eucharist, for I would be commiting canabalism. So either way as being obedient to the Church’s teachings I am sinning against God. If the church is wrong about the Eucharist, I’m sinning yet again in idolatry.

RyanL:

“‘I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.’ The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, ‘How can this man give us his flesh to eat?’” (John 6:51–52).

I await a simple yes/no answer. The charge of idolatry is not one to be made lightly, so I would like to examine this a little closer to see if it’s true.

As I offer intercessory prayers for you that you may continue to grow in Christ, I ask that you interceed for me to the Lord our God that my many prayers may be strengthened. May the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world, have mercy on us.

I hope my “not so simple” answer of yes to your not quite a “yes/no” question is adequate to settle this matter in your mind. Thank you for your prayers, I will also remember you in my suplications before the throne of grace. Growing in Christ is the best of endeavors.

 

[Salmon]

Unworthysinner:

The answer is yes, I would sin by not bowing down/paying worship to Christ(even in the form of bread, which still looks, tastes, feels, smells just like bread).

Hmmmm. How many witnessing the crucifixion recognized the Son of God on the cross? He looked like any other man, died like a any other man, felt and smelled like any other man.

Unworthysinner:

I would also sin by eating said Christ in the Eucharist, for I would be committing cannibalism.

Again, you take the position of those who “didn’t believe” in John 6:66 and walked away from him

John 6:

57As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
59These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
60Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
61When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Earlier, you failed to reply to the post:

Were those who walked away from Jesus in John 6:66 believers or unbelievers? Did they think it possible to eat “truly, truly” His flesh and drink His blood?

Do you agree with their position?

In all fairness, you have responded to a great many posts, and I don’t think it unreasonable that some have slipped by your notice.

Peace in Christ………….Salmon

 

[Jimmy_B]

**unworthysinner: **

Quote:

I would also sin by eating said Christ in the Eucharist, for I would be committing cannibalism.

uworthysinner:

I can’t believe that you wrote this. What is the name of your “Christian” religion? Christians (the early Catholic Church) have been celebrating the Eucharist since the beginning. There is evidence of our early Church, in the bible and also recorded in documents from the first century, celebrating the Eucharist…

Are you saying that the early Christians (Catholics) were all sinners and cannibals? Up until around 1500 AD everyone who followed Christ celebrated the Eucharist. Are they all sinners and cannibals? Are you saying that the same Catholic Church who collected and organized the various books that we now call the “Bible”, the same Church who said that Mathew, Mark, Luke and John were the Gospels, were sinners and cannibals? If you believe what you wrote then you have totally invalidated your own religion, the religion which is base on the Bible. The Bible which was given to the world by the Catholic Church. The Bible which, according to you, was created by sinners and cannibals. I find your comments very offensive.

 

[Jimmy_B]

**unworthysinner: **
If the church is wrong about the Eucharist, I’m sinning yet again in idolatry.

If the Catholic Church is “wrong” about the Eucharist, then they were wrong, flawed and sinners, many hundred years before they put the Bible together. How can you believe every word of the Bible, a book produced by the Catholic Church and passed down for hundreds of years, under the full and complete control of the Catholic Church.

We were not there (200-400 AD) when the Catholic Church, (that’s right they were the “Catholic Church” during that time), determined which writings were divine and put together to form the Bible. If we can’t trust that the only Christians of that time, the Catholic Church, got it right with traditions like the Eucharist, then we can’t trust that they got it right with the Bible.

After all, the bible was created by the Catholic Church manner years after the creation of Church doctrine regarding, Confession, the Veneration of Mary, praying to saints and the Holy Eucharist. If you followed Christ during the first 1500 years of Christianity, you were a Catholic, practicing beliefs that Catholics still practice today.

When you say the Catholic Church is wrong or evil, then they were wrong and evil from the very beginning. That would be like rejecting our early (Jewish) fathers from the Old Testament. That would be like saying that Moses, the early church fathers and Profits were wrong. That they were all sinners and caused their followers to sin, but I believe what they had to say in the Old Testament.

You have to trust the information that has been past down to you over many thousands of years, because you were not there. You must have faith that the past is true and good or you have to reject everything which grows out of that.

Your arguments make no sense, when viewed in the context of history. How you intrepid the Bible is irrelevant if the Bible isn’t the truth. For the Bible to be the truth you have to trust the Catholic Church. The OSAS crowd wasn’t around when the Bible you now intrepid was created.

 

[unworthysinner]

Salmon:

Hmmmm. How many witnessing the crucifixion recognized the Son of God on the cross? He looked like any other man, died like a any other man, felt and smelled like any other man.

Even his apostles didn’t believe until they had seen the risen Christ, this does nothing for the belief that bread that tastes, smells, looks, and feels like bread, but is said to actually the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ. If Christ’s body and blood is in the Eucharist, why would a God-fearing person ever eat that?(meant as a rhetorical question, one to think about)

Again, you take the position of those who “didn’t believe” in John 6:66 and walked away from him

John 6:
Earlier, you failed to reply to the post:

John 6 is the account of the passover, the wine is never mentioned, the Lord’s Supper is a different event not recorded in John. Those that “didn’t believe” were only seeking temporary physical fulfillment…

26Jesus answered them and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. 27Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”

28Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?"     29Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that **you believe in Him whom He sent**."

As has been noted in other posts in John 6, Jesus equates “eating” with “believing”.

Salmon:

In all fairness, you have responded to a great many posts, and I don’t think it unreasonable that some have slipped by your notice.

Peace in Christ………….Salmon

Thank you Salmon. I try to answer everyone who would ernestly seek answers in God’s Word, these are ultimately revealed by the Holy Spirit, and should bring glory to God the Father, and Jesus Christ the Son. I try to be mostly defensive, since I am a guest here, I appreciate not having my posts deleted or edited.