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Pax
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twaglernicetry
Guest
Once again, “you” silence by suspension.
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Church_Militant
Guest
For profanity in your posts on the Seventh Day Adventist thread. Shame on ya.
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Milliardo
Guest
The Bible was in circulation in the 1st century, many of the NT books were sent to churches(not Catholic) of certain regions, and then circulated by faithful believers. The OT Scriptures were not kept by any Catholic Church for it didn’t exist when the Bereans were searching it(Acts 17), when Christ said “It is written”(Gospels), Ethopian reading Isaiah(Acts as well). You are under a revisionist history mindset.
It was in circulation in the first century AD? Then how come several Christian communities dispute the authenticity of some New Testament books like Jude and Revelation, all the way up to the fourth century? Now who is revisionist?
Then why did Paul enumerate the roles of deacons and presbyters? Even a reading of Paul’s work will show you that those positions are not for everyone. And then again, why do you have pastors if the role of priesthood is for everyone? In a general sense, yes we are priests, but there is still a heirarchical priesthood as shown in the New Testament.
**
Church: Salvation is by infant baptism, mass, last rites, etc.**
Both Catholics and Protestants believe that salvation is by grace. We agree with that. It is through how that grace must be transmitted that we differ. Protestants as well forget that Ephesians 2 has a verse 10, which states we are made for the good works God has prepared for us. Paul’s point in Ephesians 2 is that we should not boast of our works, and rightly so.
**
Church: Christ is pulled out of heaven and put before an altar of a roman priest to be unbloodily sacrificed again for sins.**
Simply sad, this one. It shows a lack of understanding of the Catholic Faith. The Mass is not a sacrifice of Christ all over again (Protestant Errors 101), but it makes present for us the sacrifice of Christ made back then. In short, Christ’s death and sacrifice reaches out through time to us, and makes it very much present for us. But it is not a re-sacrifice of Christ.
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Church_Militant
Guest
Very well said Milliardo! Well done! 
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Church_Militant
Guest
Very well said Milliardo! Well done!
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Jimmy_B
Guest
St. Ignatius (AD 110)
St. Ignatius (AD 110) said “where there is Christ Jesus, there is the Catholic Church.” Protestant theology was nowhere to be found at that time.
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Church_Militant
Guest
Jimmy B said:
The only revisionism that I see here is yours UWS, since the historical writings of Ignatius of Antioch are about as far back as anyone can get and the date of 110 is no more than a decade or so from the death of St. John, (the last apostle to pass away) who discipled Ignatius and was his close friend. The very fact that Ignatius (the bishop of the church at Antioch. Remember them from Acts 11:26?) used the term at that time shows that the church was already calling itself that prior to that writing.
Pax vobiscum,
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Jade
Guest
You are absolutely right, faith without works is dead. That is true 100%. The point Unworthysinner is trying to make is that we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ our Lord. Once we are saved, it is our moral obligation to perform good works, otherwise we are liars. "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate," Titues 1:16.
The question here is not whether or not good works are neccessary, because they are. What is faith without works? Faith is dead without works. That was James’ argument. He is right. But, works is not what brings salvation. It is the blood of Jesus Christ that washes away our sins, and believing in him gives us eternal life.
"And without shedding of blood is no remission," Hebrews 9:22.
And I believe 100% that someone can depart from the faith. Christ tells us to endure unto the end. It is our faith in Him alone that we are accounted worthy to receive eternal life. Works without faith in Christ are done in vain. “For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins…It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God,” Hebrews 10:26,31
We are not only to have faith in Christ, but we are to do good works, leaving aside our former selves (leaving our sinful lives, in other words, repenting). The Bible tells us to “draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering (for he is faithful that promisedand let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works,” Hebrews 10:22-24.
“If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth.” 1 John 1:6.
"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." 1 John 2:4
Well Done Big Guy!
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travellinmike
Guest
WOW!!
I’ve got alot to learn. Over the better part of this afternoon I’ve read through this thread from the start and followed many of the links. Amazing.
I never knew there were other early writings. Didache, etc There is certainly a rich heritage of faith beyond that’s just the way it is because Sr Margaret told me so.
I guess you don’t get to that level of knowledge or depth of study until college level Catholic School.
I hope someday to be able to defend the faith as I’ve just read here.
Mike
I’ve got alot to learn. Over the better part of this afternoon I’ve read through this thread from the start and followed many of the links. Amazing.
I never knew there were other early writings. Didache, etc There is certainly a rich heritage of faith beyond that’s just the way it is because Sr Margaret told me so.
I guess you don’t get to that level of knowledge or depth of study until college level Catholic School.
I hope someday to be able to defend the faith as I’ve just read here.
Mike
- glad to be back in the flock
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Church_Militant
Guest
http://bestsmileys.com/welcome/12.gif Back Mike!
All you have to do is make your faith a priority and take the time to read good Catholic stuff. Live it first and then study it so you nkow why you believe what you believe. It’s not just because Sister Mary Nathaniel will kick off in your can if you don’t…it’s your soul and the souls of others that God brings into your life that are the reasons for all this.The knowlege is easily acquired over time and prayer. Good sources:
amm.org/chss/chss.htm Great & FREE!
catholicapologetics.com/ VERY GOOD stuff
biblechristiansociety.com/ FREE Tapes!
salvationhistory.com/ New Studies
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM
The Catechism online
This is a decent start and the ma(name removed by moderator)age library here ain’t no pack of slouches either.
Pax tecum,
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stargazer257
Guest
I second that Welcome back, Mike (but with a bit less neon than CM!
).CM’s advice is right on. 18 months ago, someone gave me a Catholic apologetics verse finder. It was very daunting to me at the time, especially since I knew very little about the Bible (I could find Genesis, Revelation, the Gospels, and Acts, but that’s about it). A couple of nudges into the fray got my interest up, and the knowledge feeds on itself. Pick a particular tenant of the faith, such as the primacy of Peter or the real presence in the Eucharist, fallacy of sola scriptura, etc., and study it. Picking a limited number of defenses at a time helped me to keep it organized in my head better while I was on the steepest part of the learning curve. Pretty soon, the whole picture comes together and you will be able to defend quite well on various fronts.
Read (lots of good Catholic apologetics material out there),
study,
practice!,
pray,
and do it in a Christian manner.
Remember, you don’t convert anyone, you plant seeds, and let the Holy Spirit do the rest.
God Bless,
SG257
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Jimmy_B
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Ignatius
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The Bible was in circulation in the 1st century, many of the NT books were sent to churches(not Catholic) of certain regions, and then circulated by faithful believers. The OT Scriptures were not kept by any Catholic Church for it didn’t exist when the Bereans were searching it(Acts 17), when Christ said “It is written”(Gospels), Ethopian reading Isaiah(Acts as well).
unworthy - Often in error, but never in doubt.
You need to do a little research of your own my friend instead of parroting the misinformation you’ve been fed. The Catholic Church was the only christian Church at the time. Your brand of christianity didn’t even exist until the 16th century. The Catholic Church was attested to in 110 said “where there Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.”
Do you have any idea when your church was founded and by whom? You may find this enlightening:
If you are a member of the Jewish faith, your religion was founded by about 4,000 years ago.
If you are Latin or Eastern rite Catholic, Jesus Christ founded your Church in the year A.D. 30.
If you are Lutheran, your religion was founded by Martin Luther, an ex-monk in the Catholic Church, in 1517.
If you belong to the Church of England (Anglican), your religion was founded by King Henry VIII in the year 1534 because the pope would not grant him a divorce with the right to remarry.
If you are a Presbyterian, your religion was founded when John Knox brought the teachings of John Calvin to Scotland in the Year 1560.
If you are Unitarian, your group developed in Europe in the 1500s.
If you are a Congregationalist, your religion branched off Puritanism in the early 1600s in England.
If you are a Baptist, you owe the tenets of your religion to John Smyth, who launched it in Amsterdam in 1607.
If you are a Methodist, your religion was founded by John and Charles Wesley in England in 1744.
If you are an Episcopalian, your church came from England to the American colonies. It formed a separate religion founded by Samuel Seabury in 1789.
If you are a Campellite Christian Church, your religion was started by Thomas and Alexander Campbell and Barton Stone at a revival held at Bushy Creek.
If you are a Mormon (Latter-day Saints), Joseph Smith started your church in Palmyra, N.Y. in 1830.
If you worship with the Salvation Army, your sect began with William Booth in London in 1865.
If you are a Christian Scientist, you look to 1879 as the year your religion was founded by Mary Baker Eddy.
If you are a Jehovah’s Witness, your religion was founded by Charles Taze Russell in Pennsylvania in the 1870s.
If your Church of Christ, your church broke of from the Campellites in 1906.
If you are Pentecostal, your religion was started in the United States in 1901.
You can easily verify these for yourself at any library or online.
God bless and peace be with you.
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truthinlove2
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truthinlove2
Guest
I made an error, its 314AD not 395AD…
On October 28, 312 A.D., the Roman Emperor Constantine met with Bishop Miltiades. (Catholics would later refer to him as Pope Miltiades, but at the time he was known as the Bishop of Rome.) Miltiades was assisted by Silvester, a Roman who spoke educated Latin and acted as interpreter.
The previous day, Constantine had seen a sign in the heavens: a cross in front of the sun. He heard a voice say that he would conquer in the sign that he had seen. Constantine painted crosses on the shields of his soldiers. They won an important battle. He believed that the victory was due to the power of the sign he had seen. He asked for two of the three nails that were used to crucify Jesus. One nail was made into a bit for his horse. Another nail was made a part of his crown, signifying that Constantine ruled the Roman Empire in the name of Jesus. He allowed Miltiades to keep the third nail.1
Constantine wanted to have a state church, with Christian clergy acting as civil servants. He called himself a bishop. He said that he was the interpreter of the Word of God. He claimed to be the voice that declares what is true and godly. According to historian Paul Johnson, Constantine saw himself as being an important agent of salvation, on a par with the apostles. Bishop Eusebius (Constantine’s eulogist) relates that Constantine built the Church of the Apostles with the intention of having his own body be kept there along with the bodies of the apostles. Constantine’s coffin was to be in the center (the place of honor), with six apostles on each side of him. He expected that devotions honoring the apostles would be performed in the church. Constantine expected to share the title and honor of the apostles.5
Constantine told Bishop Miltiades that he wanted to build two Christian basilicas, in honor of the Apostles Peter and Paul. He offered a large, magnificent palace for the use of Miltiades and his successors. Miltiades refused. He could not accept the idea of having Christianity be promoted by the Roman Empire.6
Constantine rode off to war. By the time that he returned in 314 A.D., Miltiades had died. Bishop Silvester was Miltiades’ successor. Silvester was eager to have the Church be spread, using Roman roads, Roman wealth, Roman law, Roman power, and Roman military might. Constantine officially approved of Silvester as the successor of Miltiades. Then he had a coronation ceremony for Silvester and crowned him like a worldly prince. No bishop had ever been crowned before.7
Before Constantine’s “conversion,” Christians were persecuted. Now, instead of facing persecution, Bishop Silvester lived in luxury. He had a beautiful palace, with the finest furniture and art. He wore silk brocade robes. He had servants to wait on him. Near his palace was a basilica that served as his cathedral. This luxurious building had seven altars made of gold, a canopy of solid silver above the main altar, and 50 chandeliers. The imperial mail system and transportation system were placed at Silvester’s disposal. It was now possible to have worldwide church councils.8
On October 28, 312 A.D., the Roman Emperor Constantine met with Bishop Miltiades. (Catholics would later refer to him as Pope Miltiades, but at the time he was known as the Bishop of Rome.) Miltiades was assisted by Silvester, a Roman who spoke educated Latin and acted as interpreter.
The previous day, Constantine had seen a sign in the heavens: a cross in front of the sun. He heard a voice say that he would conquer in the sign that he had seen. Constantine painted crosses on the shields of his soldiers. They won an important battle. He believed that the victory was due to the power of the sign he had seen. He asked for two of the three nails that were used to crucify Jesus. One nail was made into a bit for his horse. Another nail was made a part of his crown, signifying that Constantine ruled the Roman Empire in the name of Jesus. He allowed Miltiades to keep the third nail.1
Constantine wanted to have a state church, with Christian clergy acting as civil servants. He called himself a bishop. He said that he was the interpreter of the Word of God. He claimed to be the voice that declares what is true and godly. According to historian Paul Johnson, Constantine saw himself as being an important agent of salvation, on a par with the apostles. Bishop Eusebius (Constantine’s eulogist) relates that Constantine built the Church of the Apostles with the intention of having his own body be kept there along with the bodies of the apostles. Constantine’s coffin was to be in the center (the place of honor), with six apostles on each side of him. He expected that devotions honoring the apostles would be performed in the church. Constantine expected to share the title and honor of the apostles.5
Constantine told Bishop Miltiades that he wanted to build two Christian basilicas, in honor of the Apostles Peter and Paul. He offered a large, magnificent palace for the use of Miltiades and his successors. Miltiades refused. He could not accept the idea of having Christianity be promoted by the Roman Empire.6
Constantine rode off to war. By the time that he returned in 314 A.D., Miltiades had died. Bishop Silvester was Miltiades’ successor. Silvester was eager to have the Church be spread, using Roman roads, Roman wealth, Roman law, Roman power, and Roman military might. Constantine officially approved of Silvester as the successor of Miltiades. Then he had a coronation ceremony for Silvester and crowned him like a worldly prince. No bishop had ever been crowned before.7
Before Constantine’s “conversion,” Christians were persecuted. Now, instead of facing persecution, Bishop Silvester lived in luxury. He had a beautiful palace, with the finest furniture and art. He wore silk brocade robes. He had servants to wait on him. Near his palace was a basilica that served as his cathedral. This luxurious building had seven altars made of gold, a canopy of solid silver above the main altar, and 50 chandeliers. The imperial mail system and transportation system were placed at Silvester’s disposal. It was now possible to have worldwide church councils.8
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Milliardo
Guest
Funny assertions to say the least. There is no historical evidence Constantine wanted a state church; for one, he was more interested in unifying the Empire politically. For another, it wasn’t in Constantine’s time that Christianity became the official religion of the Empire; Christianity, however, in Constantine’s time, was granted the same privileges and freedom as the state religion then. I am not sure either where you got the assertion that Constantine called himself a bishop. Never read it anywhere, in both secular and religious books. The rest of the assertions are likewise fanciful. Again, nothing I read anywhere else. Maybe you’d like to cite your source.
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truthinlove2
Guest
My source is a Catholic nun, and her sources are…
- Malachi Martin, “The Decline and Fall of the Roman Church” (New York: G.P. Putnam’s Sons, 1981), pages 31-33. A major theme of this book is the radical change which occurred in the Church as a result of Constantine. Malachi Martin recently died. He was a Catholic priest, a theologian, and a Vatican insider. He was the personal confessor of Pope John XXIII.
- Paul Johnson, “A History of Christianity” (New York: Touchstone, Simon & Schuster, 1995), pages 67-68. Paul Johnson is a Catholic and a prominent historian.
- Malachi Martin, “The Decline and Fall of the Roman Church,” page 33; and Paul Johnson, “A History of Christianity,” page 67. Information about the days of the week being named for pagan gods and goddesses can be found in a good dictionary. Look up each day of the week, and “Saturn”. I used “Webster’s Dictionary,” 1941 edition, which gives the origins of words.
- Paul Johnson, “A History of Christianity,” pages 68-69.
- Paul Johnson, “A History of Christianity,” page 69.
- Malachi Martin, “The Decline and Fall of the Roman Church,” pages 33-34.
- Malachi Martin, “The Decline and Fall of the Roman Church,” pages 34-35.
- James G. McCarthy, “The Gospel According to Rome” (Eugene, Oregon: Harvest House Publishers, 1995), pages 231-232. James McCarthy is a former Catholic
Now you have sources
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RyanL
Guest
changing? in customs only, never in Tradition. i defy you to produce one Tradition that has been contradicted in the 2000 years of the Church. Tradition, mind you, is not “some guy said this once” (even if that guy is the pope teaching as a private doctor), but rather a statement “ex cathedra” - from the teaching chair of Peter. what’s more, please read from the fathers of the church PRIOR TO 314 A.D. and see how it was Catholic from the beginning!
] of James [records] that the brethren of Jesus were sons of Joseph by a former wife, whom he married before Mary. Now those who say so wish to preserve the honor of Mary in virginity to the end . . . might not know intercourse with a man after the Holy Spirit came into her and the power from on high overshadowed her." (*Commentary on Matthew *2:17 A.D. 248]).
“But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep” (*Prayer *11 A.D. 233]).
Cyprian of Carthage
“Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy” (*Letters *56[60]:5 A.D. 253]).
Tertullian
“[N]o one can attain salvation without baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says, ‘Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life’” (*Baptism *12:1 A.D. 203]).
Irenaeus
“But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out **here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. **With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition” (Against Heresies 3:3:2 A.D. 189]).
also, please read and tell me that this document, from 80 A.D., is not completely Catholic:
earlychristianwritings.com/didache.html
this is largly true (see Irenaeus above). Christ triumphed over pagan rome through christianity (Catholicism), and the persecutions by the state ended. is there a problem with this? would you rather pagan rome triumph over Christ? also, the eastern churches are Catholic as well, only not in harmony with rome. if you look into them, you’ll see the same veneration of Mary, the same theology of baptism, eucharist, holy orders, apostolic succession, confession, etc. if you’re going to use them as an example of what christianity should be like…i’ll mostly agree!
do you follow John 6, or John 6:66? can you produce anyone of your theology about the Eucharist from the first 300 years after Christ? how about the first 1000 years after Christ? how about prior to the rebellion (reformation)? any one at all?
finally, if your “nun” continues to believe that our church was “founded” in 314 A.D., please send her to us. we will help guide her back to the fullness of truth.
RyanL
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Ignatius
Guest
Ignatius:
The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ.
Those christians that were being hunted down and killed were Catholic. Ignatius, born around 50 A.D. who learned at the feet of the Apostle John, was the Catholic Bishop of Antioch and the first to be fed to wild beasts in the Roman Collesium. Polycarp, the Catholic Bishop of Smyrna in Asia Minor, was also transported to Rome. They tried to burn him to death, but the Holy Spirit deflected the flames, so they slew him with the sword. Eusibius, born in 250 A.D., wrote the first History of the Church. There is ample evidence, for anyone openly seeking the truth, of the existance of the Catholic Church from the first Century on. Dispute all you like, it doesn’t change the facts.
I pray that the Holy Spirit remove the scales from your eyes and lead you to the Pillar and Foundation of Truth.
May the love of God the Father, the peace of His Son Our Lord Jesus Christ and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you always.
Your brother in Christ.
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