Catholic vs. Protestant Soteriology. HELP!

[Tantum_ergo]

Mijoy, you said:

<<Couldn’t it be argued that the plan/design is flawed?

How can anyone live in peace knowing this? Especially those who have children?

How does one reconcile this with a “loving God” a “merciful God”?

Who could be happy in Heaven knowing others, loved ones, are in Hell? This is a paradox. it is impossible. >>

C.S. Lewis addressed your concerns in “The Great Divorce”, about “how could (you) be happy in Heaven knowing others, loved ones, are in Hell?”

He told of his narrator and guide meeting with a woman in heaven. She was exquisitely happy in heaven, having spent her life on earth “doing for others” even whenmisunderstood and abused by her husband. She met her husband, then in hell/ purgatory, who STILL attempted to make her sorry for him, to make HER unhappy because HE was unhappy, though HE FREELY CHOSE TO BE UNHAPPY. He was unsuccessful. Even though she loved him with a divine love, she could not be unhappy in heaven.

The narrator wondered. But the guide explained to him that on earth there is a “tyranny” exercised by those who have CHOSEN to be “unhappy” which asks not for THEM to be happy, but for everybody ELSE to be unhappy too. Thatis clearly wrong.

We see examples rampant today where, in a very misguided and false impression of “tolerance” we ALLOW all sorts of wrong behaviors to be committed against us and feel it would be somehow UNCHARITABLE to ask people to CHANGE their behavior. Because SOME people choose to use vulgar language, we are ALL expected to ACCEPT it, lest we be “tyrants” over others who don’t share OUR religion/ ideology/ beliefs. Or where we as Catholics are not to practice our faith EXCEPT at home or in church, and are exhorted not to “impose OUR beliefs on others” lest we offend them.

Just who is being offended, I wonder?

To return, would you DENY heaven to all because hell has been chosen by SOME? That’s what you’re proposing if you think God “had a flawed plan” because there exist eternal consequences for our actions.

I am a mother, and my heart bleeds for my children, who are going through difficulties in their faith lives. I pray for them, I do penance for them, I attempt to evangelize for them, and ultimately I leave them to the Divine Mercy of God. Because I fully trust in Him. He WILL answer my prayers. I know.

Take blessed St. Monica as your patron and inspiration. God may have a wonderful plan for all of us who are faced with family in faith crises. We know that at all times, He works for good, and can turn evil to good. Keep hoping!

 

[Matt16_18]

Melchior

• If one is saved they will always be unless they reject Christ. Unbelief is the only sin that will damn some one ultimately.*

Let’s discuss this more. Lutherans deny the distinction between mortal sin and venial sin, even though scriptures explicitly teach that not all sins are mortal.

There is sin which is mortal … there is sin which is not mortal.
1John 5:16-17

A Christian must accept that not all sins are mortal. Lutherans are in error when they assert that that the only mortal sin that would lead a Christian to damnation is the sin of apostasy. It is true that apostasy is a mortal sin, but nowhere does the scriptures teach that apostasy is the only mortal sin.

Jesus taught that a person can have an intellectual belief in him, do mighty works in his name - and still be damned.

"Not every one who says to me, Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’ "Every one then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house upon the rock …”
Matt. 7:21-24

Obviously a person that performs “mighty works” in the name of Jesus has some knowledge and acceptance of Jesus. But such a person can still be damned. A cursory reading of the Gospels should dispel the notion that one can live a life of disobedience to the commandments of God and be saved.

Protestants sects can be divided into two camps; those sects that teach OSAS, and those that don’t. The sects that don’t teach OSAS, usually teach that apostasy is the only mortal sin that a Christian can commit that would bring about his damnation. That is far better than teaching the heresy of OSAS, but it is still a false teaching that apostasy is the only mortal sin that can bring damnation to a Christian. Belief in false teaching does not assure one’s salvation. Belief in false teaching can, however, engender a false sense of security that ultimately leads to one’s destruction.

work out your own salvation with fear and trembling
Phil. 2:12

the fear of the LORD is clean,
enduring for ever;
the ordinances of the LORD are true,
and righteous altogether
Psalm 19:9

Now then, let the fear of the LORD be upon you; take heed what you do, for there is no perversion of justice with the LORD our God, or partiality, or taking bribes.
2Chr. 19:7

 

[Melchior]

Mijoy2:

Martino, thanks for your reply. However it carries with it a few problems:

Couldn’t it be argued that the plan/design is flawed?

How can anyone live in peace knowing this? Especially those who have children?

How does one reconcile this with a “loving God” a “merciful God”?

Who could be happy in Heaven knowing others, loved ones, are in Hell? This is a paradox. it is impossible.

I think I need to make an appointment with a priest, this simply does not add up. However I worry my quandry will go on.

All this does is emphasize my point.

If Christ is the door then you need not worry. It is safe to say that the wide road is the one that those who do not believe in Christ travel. Somehow I don’t think it was referring to those who actually follow Christ.

Mel

 

[Matt16_18]

Martino

It is quite true that it is impossible not to sin; the question is this: have we advanced in purity and virtue or have we remained the same?

Nothing is impossible for God. Can a person attain such a degree of holiness that he does not commit even venial sin? I believe that is possible. But there should be absolutely no question that it is entirely possible to live a life without committing mortal sin. That fact is assumed by all the writers of the New Testament, and arguably, by all the writers of the Old Testament too.

 

[Matt16_18]

A few of the mortal sins listed in the New Testament:

But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death."
Rev 21:8

…nor did they repent of their murders or their sorceries or their immorality or their thefts.
Rev. 9:21

Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.
1Cor. 6:9-10

Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal. 5:19-21

 

[Mijoy2]

Matt16_18:

A few of the mortal sins listed in the New Testament:

But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death."

Rev 21:8

…nor did they repent of their murders or their sorceries or their immorality or their thefts.
Rev. 9:21

Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.
1Cor. 6:9-10

Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal. 5:19-21

To all the above, this means – when gone unrepented? correct? Sure hope do.

 

[Matt16_18]

To all the above, this means – when gone unrepented?

Of course.

 

[steve_b]

Mijoy2:

I relate to Mel, this is a huge problem of mine too. It appears to me there is a double standard. The double standard that comes from the interpretation of Mortal sin.

We use the term “grievious act” yet we put masturbation and missing Mass in this catagory. These may in fact be mortal sins, in fact ***I believe the argument for them to be mortal is quite clear in the CCC. ***

Not just in the CCC but scripture also.

“Don’t fail to meet as is the habit of some…or there remains no sacrifice for sin for you”. [Heb 10:25…]

“…sexual immorality…those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God” [Gal 5:19…]

Mijoy2:

I just can’t seem to get beyond this) we rarely if ever bring up the FACT that the vast majority of Catholics commit one or the other, or both, of these sins continuously.

If these Catholics have been properly instructed, and there is no good excuse for missing, then that means they are in mortal sin

Mijoy2:

It is not confronted directly by either the popular apologists (here and elsewhere) or the Priests at our parishes. How can anyone have peace knowing thier friends and family members are in a state of mortal sin?

As Peter said, each one of us must always be ready to give an answer for the hope that lies within us. If the priest won’t teach, that doesn’t remove the duty from us to teach the faith.

Mijoy2:

Follow the logic:

Missing Mass is a mortal sin
Mortal sin puts us in serious jeopardy of eternal damnation.
Most everyone misses Mass frequently (people in these forums excluded)
This is not seen as a serious matter!!!

If we show people where they are wrong, and do it convincingly with evidence, they can disagree, but they can’t plead ignorance after that.

Mijoy2:

The definition of mortal sin also troubles me greatly. It is either largely subjective or the vast majority of sins are mortal.

When scripture says a particular sin will keep you from the kingdom of God, or the kingdom of heaven, and language like this, it’s pretty clear that the sin being discussed is mortal.

Some examples

Mt 15:19-20(nothing uncleen enters heaven), Col 3:5-5,
1 Cor 6:9-10, Eph 5:3-5, Heb 10:25-27, 13:4, Gal 5:19-21,
Rev 21:8 ; 27, 22:15,

 

[martino]

Martino

It is quite true that it is impossible not to sin; the question is this: have we advanced in purity and virtue or have we remained the same?

Nothing is impossible for God. Can a person attain such a degree of holiness that he does not commit even venial sin? I believe that is possible. But there should be absolutely no question that it is entirely possible to live a life without committing mortal sin. That fact is assumed by all the writers of the New Testament, and arguably, by all the writers of the Old Testament too.

Yes yes I agree with you, I took that line from a writing by a saint. He probably meant impossible to go through life without sinning. Even so, it was consistant with the point that I was trying to make.

 

[martino]

Mijoy2:

Martino, thanks for your reply. However it carries with it a few problems:

Couldn’t it be argued that the plan/design is flawed?

How can anyone live in peace knowing this? Especially those who have children?

How does one reconcile this with a “loving God” a “merciful God”?

Who could be happy in Heaven knowing others, loved ones, are in Hell? This is a paradox. it is impossible.

I think I need to make an appointment with a priest, this simply does not add up. However I worry my quandry will go on.

All this does is emphasize my point.

Are you saying that you dont believe in hell or just that you dont believe anyone goes there?

Remember that God is merciful and just. Everyone loves to talk about God’s mercy but nobody likes to hear about His justice. Jesus already came in mercy, the next time he comes will be in justice; “He will come again to judge the living and the dead.”

 

[Mijoy2]

Tantum ergo:

We see examples rampant today where, in a very misguided and false impression of “tolerance” we ALLOW all sorts of wrong behaviors to be committed against us and feel it would be somehow UNCHARITABLE to ask people to CHANGE their behavior. Because SOME people choose to use vulgar language, we are ALL expected to ACCEPT it, lest we be “tyrants” over others who don’t share OUR religion/ ideology/ beliefs. Or where we as Catholics are not to practice our faith EXCEPT at home or in church, and are exhorted not to “impose OUR beliefs on others” lest we offend them.

Just who is being offended, I wonder?

I am a mother, and my heart bleeds for my children, who are going through difficulties in their faith lives. I pray for them, I do penance for them, I attempt to evangelize for them, and ultimately I leave them to the Divine Mercy of God. Because I fully trust in Him. He WILL answer my prayers. I know.

Take blessed St. Monica as your patron and inspiration. God may have a wonderful plan for all of us who are faced with family in faith crises. We know that at all times, He works for good, and can turn evil to good. Keep hoping!

Good points Tantum. I read The Great Divorce and hope beyond hope that there is some reality to the story. I very much enjoy reading C.S.Lewis. Yet he himself, in the forward, warns that the book is not to be taken literally.

What I can’t seem to reconcile is, co-workers, collegues, friends, loved ones, that we see everyday are the people we are talking about here. Not some poor wretched soul we invision. People we deem from a secular standpoint as being “good people”. Loving mothers and fathers, daughters and sons. People who devote thier lives to helping others, nurses doctors, social workers etc. People who would lay down thier life for another, people who are charitable and loving and caring. However, they simply do not understand thier faith fully and miss Mass, or use self-gratification to relieve tentsion, use birth control, etc. These are the people we are talking about. By definition they are in Mortal sin. This is where my trouble lays. I have had conversations with some Catholics who truly believe what they need to do is “be a good person”. This is what most Catholics believe. By simply going to church once in a while, praying from time to time, and never going beyond that to examine thier faith more, they will never change thier lifestyle.

This is the reality.

 

[martino]

Miljoy-"I have had conversations with some Catholics who truly believe what they need to do is “be a good person”. This is what most Catholics believe. By simply going to church once in a while, praying from time to time, and never going beyond that to examine thier faith more, they will never change thier lifestyle. "

Sad but true! Its not just Catholics, what you describe is Protestantism 101. We have become Protestantized and I dont mean that as a bash on Protestants but it is a fact that they have watered to Gospels down so much that you’d better know how to swim. All we can do is live our lives according to the true teachings of the Church and pray for conversions. What we must not do is adopt their faulty reasoning. If you say, “well I just cant believe all these people missing Mass are going to hell, therefore I no longer believe missing Mass is a mortal sin, and if its not really a mortal sin then what is the big deal for me to miss Mass once in a while?” That is how it happens, we see people playing fast and loose with their faith and it appears that they are getting away with something, while we seem to be spinning our wheels for nothing. Pretty soon they become example for us instead of us being the example for them. Why? -because its EASIER! That is the devil’s game, that is what he wants to happen.

I will tell you something that i know first hand; its lonely when you really try to follow Jesus. Most people wont understand you, not even good Christians, they will call you a fanatic or say that you are making a big deal out of small matters. Many of us cave in when faced with that kind of isolation from our family and friends. It’s tempting to let them talk you out of your “fanatism”, at least that way you can keep each other company. Billy Joel said it best; “I’d rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints”. I would rather cry with the saints than laugh with the sinners anyday, but what is ironic is that I have had more fun since I began crying with the saints than I ever did laughing with the sinners. We have to hand on tight or we will surely lose it.

2Th 2:15 “So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.”

I will say again what I said in my earlier post, most people will choose the easier path, the one that doesn’t lead to heaven!

Ask yourself this question: Would Satan be happier with you at Mass or watching the football game?

 

[Matt16_18]

Mijoy2

they simply do not understand thier faith fully

While it may be true that a man may be ignorant of his faith, he may also be culpable of the sin of keeping himself ignorant out of neglect, laziness, or a deliberate choice to stay ignorant.

VINCIBLE IGNORANCE

Lack of culpable knowledge for which a person is morally responsible. It is culpable ignorance because it could be cleared up if the person used sufficient diligence.

One is said to be simply (but culpably) ignorant if one fails to make enough effort to learn what should be known; guilt then depends on one’s lack of effort to clear up the ignorance.

That person is crassly ignorant when the lack of knowledge is not directly willed but due to neglect or laziness; as a result the guilt is somewhat lessened, but in grave matters a person would still be gravely responsible.

A person has affected ignorance when one deliberately fosters it in order to not be inhibited in what one wants to do; such ignorance is gravely wrong when it concerns serious matters.

(Eytm. Latin vincibilis, easily overcome; ignorantia, want of knowledge or information.)

INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE

Lack of knowledge, either of fact of law, for which a person is not morally responsible. This may be due to the difficulty of the object of the knowledge, or scarcity of evidence, or insufficient time and talent in the person, or any other factor for which he is not culpable.

(Etym. Latin in, not + vincibilis, easily overcome: invincibilis.)

Pocket Catholic Dictionary, John A. Hardon, S.J

**Catechism of the Catholic Church

ERRONEOUS JUDGMENT

1792 ** Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement to one’s passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church’s authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and of charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct.

1793 If - on the contrary - the ignorance is invincible, or the moral subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him. It remains no less an evil, a privation, a disorder.** One must therefore work to correct the errors of moral conscience. **

 

[whit]

If Christ is the door then you need not worry. It is safe to say that the wide road is the one that those who do not believe in Christ travel. Somehow I don’t think it was referring to those who actually follow Christ.

Mel

Mel, Christ is not the door. His words follow"

Mt 7,6.12-14.

Do not give what is holy to dogs, or throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them underfoot, and turn and tear you to pieces.
Do to others whatever you would have them do to you. This is the law and the prophets.
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many.
How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few.

Nowhere in this passage does it state that Christ is the door/gate. What it does state is that the way we live, what we do, is determinate of the gate we go through. If we live our lives as with dogs and/or pigs we will be trampled underfoot and be torn apart. However if we live as the law commands(10 Commandments) and his greatest commandment we will enter through the narrow gate and find Salvation. He is talking about how we live. Not whether we believe in Him or not. Remember, even the devil(Satan) believes in Christ. He is a believer. Does that give him salvation? I don’t think so.

Mel, We all have to keep working to get on and stay on that narrow road heading toward that narow gate, primarily because in Christ’s own words, “… And those who find it are few.” Somehow, I don’t think it’s an idle statement/warning He is making. He gave us all the tools we need. He gave us His Church on earth with Peter as it’s head. He gave us the Sacraments, among them is the Sacrament of Reconciliation (confession) in order for us to be ready to enter Heaven by that narrow road, by that narrow gate.

God bless,
Whit

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Mel & Mijoy2,

I suppose I’d answer you both in the same way, by emphasizing what St. Athanasius’ says here:

St. Athanasius (ca. AD 358 ):

We, however, apart from the Spirit, are strange and distant from God. Thus, our being in the Father is not of ourselves, but is in the Spirit who is in us and who abides in us, and whose presence in us we preserve by our confession of the faith. … Therefore, when someone falls from the Spirit through any wickedness—that grace indeed remains irrevocably with those who are willing to repent after such a fall. (Discourses Against the Arians, 3, 24-25, ca. AD 358 )

Yes. There are many mortal sins. Many more than Luther would have us believe. There are many ways in which we can completely turn our backs upon our Lord in favor of disordered selfishness, whether we do so in word or deed or both.

Yet, I don’t live in fear, and neither should any child of God. I know that even on those occasions when I put my selfish disordered desires first, God sends his angels to prompt me to holiness. Every time I commit a sin, God tells me. Each and every time He melts away that disordered selfish desire that croaches at the door. And every time He places within my heart a love for Him which burns with such strength that I’m astonished at how I could have ever desired anything other than complete obedience to the will of the Lord.

Jesus teaches every sinner to repent of their sinful ways and to “Go, and sin no more.” Do you believe that sinlessness is possible? It doesn’t sound as though you do. If not, why not? Jesus tells us to sin no more. Do you suppose He would tell us to do something that was entirely impossible for us to do, given the gifts He has given us? I believe we can “sin no more,” by the grace of God.

Yet, given the above teaching, even if one should stumble, what should I be afraid of? Isn’t the Lord my shephard? Does he not leadeth me to green pastures and still waters? So long as in word and deed, Jesus Christ is your shephard, then you need not fear evil.

Catholicism is not about being perfect or else you go to hell. It’s about repenting every moment of every day if need be, but continuing to grow in your love of God.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Yet, what of Luther’s soteriology? If one does not even admit that if one commits adultery and murder a thousand times a day that we can be separated from the Lord, then don’t you suppose it is easier to commit these grave sins “confident” that it would not affect eternal life? Isn’t that exactly what the serpent convinced Eve to believe?

Luther’s “Sin boldly” soteriology seems based upon permissiveness so as to relieve fear. Fear of the Lord is something I never want to be free from. I prefer a soteriology that emphasizes forgiveness of sin, yet does not comprise what the Lord himself taught, “Go, and sin no more.”

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Somehow I don’t think it was referring to those who actually follow Christ.

Amen! Yet someone who “actually followed Christ” would not council his friend to sin boldly, would he?

 

[Matt16_18]

Itsjustdave1988

Great posts!

 

[b32865]

Since Melchior specifically asked for answers to Mijoy2’s post, I would like to respond to a few items.

First of all, Mijoy2 seems to think breaking one of the ten commandments is always “grievous matter”. I don’t think this is the case. My children’s St. Jos. Balt. Cat. gives the example of a child who thinks he committed a mortal sin by stealing a dime from his mother’s purse. He did not, in fact, commit a mortal sin even though he thinks he did because a dime is not a “grievous matter.”

Next, missing Mass (for Catholics) and masturbation: yes, with the conditions of full knowledge and consent (which you admitted might be missing). You ask, “How can anyone have peace knowing their friends and family members are in a state of mortal sin?” First of all, you don’t CERTAINLY know; but, if you strongly suspect, you’re not supposed to be at peace, you’re supposed to be praying and doing penance! (like Tantum ergo, like St. Monica)

Word about missing Mass: extenuating circumstances (sick, sick child, no Mass available, etc.) are understood to excuse one.

Word about masturbation: reflect on this: repeated sinning in this area (or any sexual deviancy) leads to DEEP unhappiness. A person will not stand still. He will get worse, or he will realize he is drowning and seek help to get better (the help he needs, of course, is baptism, or, if already baptized, confession and the Eucharist). Some people on this thread have mentioned THE GREAT DIVORCE by C.S. Lewis. I’d like to mention a book by another Inkling, DESCENT INTO HELL by Charles Williams. A portrait of a man’s descent into hell, as I recall it is linked to a sexual obsession.

If you think you couldn’t possibly be happy in heaven if someone you love rejects God, you are choosing that person over God. You are essentially repeating Adam’s sin, who so dearly loved Eve that he chose her over obedience to God.

Yes, the majority of nominal Catholics in this time and place do not seem to get it. Yet reflect: the Catholic Church teaches that God gives each and every soul sufficient grace to be saved (in contrast to Melchior, who, if I am understanding him correctly, needs to contribute his own saving faith). Each and every person’s life is a drama. You are not seeing the whole picture, you are not seeing the end of the picture. Pray and trust God. Be courageous in your witness.

Melchior, we understand that you can’t answer each and every post. May God bless you through these forums.

 

[Pax]

space ghost:

you don’t have to believe… go in peace…

What an utterly vacuous response to a serious question. You surely know better than to make such a calloused and shallow remark.