Catholic vs. Protestant Soteriology. HELP!

[Pax]

Melchior,

I think the way you phrased and qualified your post made a lot of sense. While I can understand where you are coming from, I think the problem is, in substance, something other then some form of catholic legalism. Every catholic teaching on salvation is consistent with scripture. Your current explanation of your Lutheran beliefs is much closer to catholic teaching than your childhood understandings of catholic doctrine.

I suspect that you were not properly catechised. Church teaching is church teaching, but the way it is taught and how well it is taught is sometimes up for grabs.

Most catholics do not live in an elevated state of fear. Those that do, probably do not know their faith. The church has always taught that it is God’s mercy first, then his justice. His divine mercy, His gentle love, and even His discipline are sources of great peace and joy for the catholic.

I do not trust myself and I know that I can fail, but I fully trust in God and know that He will never fail me. The catholic has no reason to live in fear. Instead we continuously give thanks for God’s divine mercy and his wonderful gift of the Eucharist. There is no greater joy than knowing Jesus Christ and living the catholic way of life.

 

[b32865]

A couple clarifications upon reading my own post…

When I re-read, “you’re not supposed to be at peace, you’re supposed to be praying and doing penance”, it occurred to me that this, in itself, will probably bring peace.

Also, when I said that, “God gives each and every soul sufficient grace to be saved”, perhaps I should have clarified that not everyone will respond to this grace. Hell does indeed exist.

 

[Melchior]

itsjustdave1988:

Amen! Yet someone who “actually followed Christ” would not council his friend to sin boldly, would he?

I have to communicate something in Luthers defense.

If you spend any amount of time reading luthers works you will find he is a sharp tongued polemicist. Which was a virtue in his day. He often said bold or outrageous things to make a larger point. He was a master at using rhetorical exaggeration to do this. When you understand this you realize that you must not take some of Luthers more famous quotes in a wooden literal sense. When he wrote to Melancthon and told him to “sin boldy” he was making an exaggerated point about hypocracy. It would be equivalent to a person who is shop-lifting a candy bar and knowing that it is wrong being told by someone confronting them “You may as well go rob a bank if you are going to steal. If you want to violate God’s law do it with some style”. In this context you can see the obvious sarcasm and the powerful way in which the person is being called out.

Any reading of his Catehcism will clearly show that he is very serious about following the Ten Commandements. But I am not arguing for or against Luthers theology. But I think that people need to be fair to him and understand him contextually. If you read Bondage of the Will you will see that he uses such biting sarcasm often. It was a common way to argue in that day. They did not have the PC sensibilites we have.

Mel

 

[Melchior]

whit:

Mel, Christ is not the door. His words follow"
Nowhere in this passage does it state that Christ is the door/gate. What it does state is that the way we live, what we do, is determinate of the gate we go through. If we live our lives as with dogs and/or pigs we will be trampled underfoot and be torn apart. However if we live as the law commands(10 Commandments) and his greatest commandment we will enter through the narrow gate and find Salvation. He is talking about how we live. Not whether we believe in Him or not. Remember, even the devil(Satan) believes in Christ. He is a believer. Does that give him salvation? I don’t think so.

Mel, We all have to keep working to get on and stay on that narrow road heading toward that narow gate, primarily because in Christ’s own words, “… And those who find it are few.” Somehow, I don’t think it’s an idle statement/warning He is making. He gave us all the tools we need. He gave us His Church on earth with Peter as it’s head. He gave us the Sacraments, among them is the Sacrament of Reconciliation (confession) in order for us to be ready to enter Heaven by that narrow road, by that narrow gate.

God bless,
Whit

I hear what you are saying and agree to a point. But the problem is we have all broken the Ten Commandments. You you breake one you hvae broken them all. Once is a enough. Christ says elsewhee that He is the door. He is the only way to the father. Of course faith looks like something. But unless we can keep the Commandments perfectly our entire life we are doomed.

If Christ is not the way to Salvation then there is none. You seem to almost, I am sure not intentionally, pitting Christ and the Church against each other. Your only mention of Him in th post is that He is not the door. But He said He is the Way, the Truth and the Life.

Do you see how what you said is confusing?

Mel

 

[Melchior]

b32865,

Yes, the majority of nominal Catholics in this time and place do not seem to get it. Yet reflect: the Catholic Church teaches that God gives each and every soul sufficient grace to be saved (in contrast to Melchior, who, if I am understanding him correctly, needs to contribute his own saving faith). Each and every person’s life is a drama. You are not seeing the whole picture, you are not seeing the end of the picture. Pray and trust God. Be courageous in your witness.

Just to clarify I believe I contribute nothing to my salvation. Not even faith. If I have it, it is a gift of God. I believe Salvation is completely monergistic in that sense. I don’t belief faith is a work. I believe it is a gift.

Melchior, we understand that you can’t answer each and every post. May God bless you through these forums.

Thank you!

Mel

 

[Melchior]

Pax:

Melchior,

I think the way you phrased and qualified your post made a lot of sense. While I can understand where you are coming from, I think the problem is, in substance, something other then some form of catholic legalism. Every catholic teaching on salvation is consistent with scripture. Your current explanation of your Lutheran beliefs is much closer to catholic teaching than your childhood understandings of catholic doctrine.

I suspect that you were not properly catechised. Church teaching is church teaching, but the way it is taught and how well it is taught is sometimes up for grabs.

Most catholics do not live in an elevated state of fear. Those that do, probably do not know their faith. The church has always taught that it is God’s mercy first, then his justice. His divine mercy, His gentle love, and even His discipline are sources of great peace and joy for the catholic.

I do not trust myself and I know that I can fail, but I fully trust in God and know that He will never fail me. The catholic has no reason to live in fear. Instead we continuously give thanks for God’s divine mercy and his wonderful gift of the Eucharist. There is no greater joy than knowing Jesus Christ and living the catholic way of life.

Thank you for the kind words and insights, Pax.

Mel

 

[JesustheSavior]

To Mel…unless you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior there is no salvation and no peace in your heart…you can find many verses in tha bible that tells you how to find it with out going far John 3:16 tells you that you need to be born again,works won’t get you to heaven nor a religion Paul stated that because we have all sin we are destitute from heaven in Romans 3:23 don’t look for answers in empty relgions or places and be assure that when you seek God he will answer to you read Revelation 3:20 he says that He is knocking on your door and if you open He will have a feast with you and you with Him,Jesus said too that who ever drinks from the water He gives you rivers will flow and you will never be thirsty.
May God give you the wisdom to find the truth in His word not in a religion.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Mel,

unless we can keep the Commandments perfectly our entire life we are doomed.

You don’t really believe this, do you? Or is this how you see Catholic Moral Theology? If so, why? Do you agree or disagree with St. Athanasius quote above. I’d say he’s a pretty trustworthy source of Catholic teaching.

With respect to Luther, it seems he can be understood in many various ways. Even Lutherans disagree as to what Luther meant. It seems to me his writings often contradict themselves. His “faith alone” soteriology promoted antinomian views, even if that was not Luther’s intent. I don’t find him to really have had a coherent soteriology, as it seems to me to have flip-flopped so much. In the final analysis, his soteriology differed greatly from the early Church Fathers, which ought to give us doubt as to its orthodoxy.

 

[Melchior]

JesustheSavior:

To Mel…unless you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior there is no salvation and no peace in your heart…you can find many verses in tha bible that tells you how to find it with out going far John 3:16 tells you that you need to be born again,works won’t get you to heaven nor a religion Paul stated that because we have all sin we are destitute from heaven in Romans 3:23 don’t look for answers in empty relgions or places and be assure that when you seek God he will answer to you read Revelation 3:20 he says that He is knocking on your door and if you open He will have a feast with you and you with Him,Jesus said too that who ever drinks from the water He gives you rivers will flow and you will never be thirsty.
May God give you the wisdom to find the truth in His word not in a religion.

I have been a born again Christian for many years. Christ is my Lord and Savior and I do trust Him alone for my Salvation. But one does not need to pit faith in Christ against the Church.

Scripture also tells us to not neglect the fellowship of the saints. This is the Church. A false dichotomy of Christ vs. Religion will not do. It is simplistic. Christ established the Church. There is not such thing as a “Lone Ranger” Christian. You cannot be a part of the Body of Christ without being… a part of the Body of Christ.

I do thank you for your concern.

Blessings,

Mel

 

[itsjustdave1988]

JesustheSavior,

May God give you the wisdom to find the truth in His word not in a religion

You seem to have manufactured or bought into a false dichotomy between His Word and religion. Do you know what the word “religion” means? According to Webster, it is “the service and worship of God.” Surely you are not opposed to the service and worship of God, are you?

It seems you’ve been duped into accepting the anti-religion message of many so-called “non-denominational” denominations.

However, Scripture doesn’t share your disdain for religion:

**James 1:27 "Pure and undefiled religion **(Gk “threskeia”) **in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world. **

I find the truth in His Word, which has been pronounced by my religion since apostolic times.

 

[Matt16_18]

Melchior

But unless we can keep the Commandments perfectly our entire life we are doomed.

You are still denying the distinction between mortal sin and venial sin. This error is prevalent among Lutherans, and it can lead to spiritual retardation. It is indeed possible for a Christian to obey the Ten Commandments perfectly enough so that he is not daily committing mortal sin.

The Ten Commandments are summed up in the two great Commandments of love. Spiritual growth is all about learning to obey the two great commandments with an ever-increasing degree of perfection. How perfect can a person be? With the grace of God, there is no limit to which we can be perfected.

You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Matt. 5:48

Are you trying to argue that Lutherans aren’t obligated to keep the Ten Commandments because of their saving faith? What happens to the Lutheran that dies with an intellectual belief in Christ but unrepentant for his adultery? Can he be sure of his salvation?

 

[Melchior]

Melchior

But unless we can keep the Commandments perfectly our entire life we are doomed.

You are still denying the distinction between mortal sin and venial sin. This error is prevalent among Lutherans, and it can lead to spiritual retardation. It is indeed possible for a Christian to obey the Ten Commandments perfectly enough so that he is not daily committing mortal sin.

The Ten Commandments are summed up in the two great Commandments of love. Spiritual growth is all about learning to obey the two great commandments with an ever-increasing degree of perfection. How perfect can a person be? With the grace of God, there is no limit to which we can be perfected.

You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Matt. 5:48

Are you trying to argue that Lutherans aren’t obligated to keep the Ten Commandments because of their saving faith? What happens to the Lutheran that dies with an intellectual belief in Christ but unrepentant for his adultery? Can he be sure of his salvation?

What I meant is that there is not a person who who has not committed a mortal sin at some point in their life - other than Jesus of course and maybe Mary. All I meant is that we are all transgressors and even if we keep the law for years and years, chances are we have still violated it at some point and all it takes is once.

With regards to the unrepentant adulterer, I would assume they are either a non believer or one who has indeed left the faith by their unrepentant rebellion. I doubt such a one will be saved if they die in this state. So we don’t disagree as much as you think we do. Lutherans are obliged to keep the Commandments. Just as everyone is. Please keep in mind I am a recent Lutheran. I have spent most of the last years as a Calvinist. So I am not diehard defender of Lutheranism. It just happened to be the best option (from a Protestant perspective) in my particular geographic location. It was the higher view of the Sacraments that drew me to Lutheranism more than anything else. And please keep in mind that Lutherans get their teachings from the book of Concord not primarily Luther. So the name Lutheran is unfortunate and misleadingly inaccurate. But that is neither here not there- just thought I would clarify.

Mel

 

[Matt16_18]

Melchior

What I meant is that there is not a person who who has not committed a mortal sin at some point in their life - other than Jesus of course and maybe Mary.

That isn’t true. What about all the Christians that are validly baptized that die before they reach the age of reason? And how would you know that there has never been a Christian that reached the age of reason that lived their life free of committing mortal sin? I think that is a completely unreasonable thing to say.

All I meant is that we are all transgressors and even if we keep the law for years and years, chances are we have still violated it at some point and all it takes is once.

All it takes is once for what? If we commit mortal sin, we can have that sin forgiven, and be reconciled to the Church by the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

With regards to the unrepentant adulterer, I would assume they are either a non believer or one who has indeed left the faith by their unrepentant rebellion.

Why would you assume such a thing? Do you think that adultery is unheard of among church going Lutherans?

*Please keep in mind I am a recent Lutheran. I have spent most of the last years as a Calvinist. *

Did the Calvinism that you were involved in teach the Calvinst flavor of OSAS? It seems to me that you are looking for some sort of “eternal security” doctrine to give you comfort. The Calvinst flavor of OSAS is irrational because it denies that men have free will. Lutheranism is appealing to some, because it asserts that the only mortal sin is apostasy, and few Christian are worried about becoming apostates.

Do you believe that apostasy is the only mortal sin that could lead a Christian to damnation?

 

[Melchior]

Melchior

What I meant is that there is not a person who who has not committed a mortal sin at some point in their life - other than Jesus of course and maybe Mary.

That isn’t true. What about all the Christians that are validly baptized that die before they reach the age of reason? And how would you know that there has never been a Christian that reached the age of reason that lived their life free of committing mortal sin? I think that is a completely unreasonable thing to say.

All I meant is that we are all transgressors and even if we keep the law for years and years, chances are we have still violated it at some point and all it takes is once.

All it takes is once for what? If we commit mortal sin, we can have that sin forgiven, and be reconciled to the Church by the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

With regards to the unrepentant adulterer, I would assume they are either a non believer or one who has indeed left the faith by their unrepentant rebellion.

Why would you assume such a thing? Do you think that adultery is unheard of among church going Lutherans?

*Please keep in mind I am a recent Lutheran. I have spent most of the last years as a Calvinist. *

Did the Calvinism that you were involved in teach the Calvinst flavor of OSAS? It seems to me that you are looking for some sort of “eternal security” doctrine to give you comfort. The Calvinst flavor of OSAS is irrational because it denies that men have free will. Lutheranism is appealing to some, because it asserts that the only mortal sin is apostasy, and few Christian are worried about becoming apostates.

Do you believe that apostasy is the only mortal sin that could lead a Christian to damnation?

As a Calvinist I believed in the Perseverence of the Saints a doctrine that is light years from OSAS (which is an Arminian Baptist invention). POTS simply means that God will sustain a true Christian to the end of their life in the faith. Lutherans have something similar which I call persevence of the elect. In both schemes apostasy is possible, but those who are truly elect to eternal life with remain in the faith and repentant. Neither means you can sin all you want and still not lose your salvation. The Calvinist would say One may be a Christian in that they are baptized but ebcause they never truly believed and repented they will not persevere. A Lutheran would say anyone can fall away from the faith but those who persevere to the end are among the elect. A scheme that is, btw, not all that different from Augustine’s or Aquinas’ view.

Do you believe that apostasy is the only mortal sin that could lead a Christian to damnation?

Yes. But I think that I would have to qualify what I mean by apostasy. I think it can take many forms. If som one is a Christian and commits mass murder, you have to assume they either never really believed and therefore were never saved or they have apostasized in deed if not word. So I think that ultimately for a Christian, all sin that can erase ones name from the book of life is apostasy. Simply put iof someone sins and feels no compulsion to repent they must be an apostate because they have denied the faith.

Mel

 

[JesustheSavior]

I am not a Lutheran and to be honest with you i don’t believe in most of his believes i just stressed the fact that Luther denounce the church for selling indulgences that are history and that you can not denied so please try to read what i post and not to twisted in any other way.
I do believe in goig to church but haven’t we define religion on what we believe?because if someone ask you what religion are you?don’t you answer…i am catholic,lutheran,jehova,mormon or christian???
When we do talk about mortal sin,do you talk about our spiritual death???because we are dead in our sins.
To work our own salvation that means that what Jesus did in the cross was not enough?don’t you think that you are taking that out of context Matt???Read Romans 5:8

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Mel,

POTS simply means that God will sustain a true Christian to the end of their life in the faith.

Yes. But the Protestants have re-defined “true Christian” at variance with Scripture, St. Augustine’s teaching, and the teaching of the first millenium of Christianity.

According to St. Augustine, true Christians were those baptized into Christianity. This included EVERYONE that was baptized, to include infants. Yet, according to St. Augustine, not all those regenerated/justified in baptism, not all those with “true faith” would persevere in their faith and attain eternal life. Only the elect would. And by the way, according to St. Augustine, nobody could know they were among the elect in their lifetime. So, we have, according to ancient Christian teaching, an assembly of baptized believers, all of which were considered true Christians, regenerated, justified, some of which will fall away from the faith and fail to persevere to eternal life. Let’s fast forward now to the novelties of the Reformation …

The typical Protestant definition of Perseverance of the Saints is …

From Easton’s Bible Dictionary (Protestant):

**Perseverance of the saints **
their certain continuance in a state of grace. Once justified and regenerated, the believer can neither totally nor finally fall away from grace, but will certainly persevere therein and attain everlasting life.

Note the words “Perseverance of the saints” are the same as used by St. Augustine, yet the meaning is totally changed. According to Easton’s definition, ALL the justified and regenerated attain everlasting life. In other words, all Christians will attain eternal life.

What they have done is reject the efficacy of baptism as really conferring sanctifying grace such that baptism now is not the same as the washing of regeneration as it had been universally understood by the first millenium of Christianity. Now, the Church is made totally invisible. We don’t know who the “real” Christians are and who are not. In this Protestant view, the gift of perseverance is made equivalent to the gift of faith. This is in contrast to Scripture and Tradition.

For example, Jesus testifies that Peter had faith. Jesus also prays that Peter’s faith may NOT FAIL. Why? If “real” Christian faith cannot fail, why would Jesus pray that the faith that Peter surely had would not fail? It seems to me that perseverance and faith are different gifts, according to Scripture, just as St. Augustine asserted.

Consequently, one with real Christian faith may not have been given the gift of perseverance, therefore, a REAL Christian’s faith, one who is really regenerated/justified by baptismal grace may indeed fail to persevere to eternal life. This is the universal constant consent of the fathers of the early Church. Many forms of Protestantism have departed from this understanding of baptism, of justification, of regeneration, and of perseverance in favor of some new and novel re-definition.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

According to St. Augustine…

All the elect are predestined to eternal glory…

“… whom He did predestinate, them He also called; and whom He called, them He also justified; and whom He justified, them He also glorified.” Of these no one perishes, because all are elected." (On Rebuke and Grace, Ch 14)

You might say St. Augustine taught “once elected, always elected.” However …

Some of those regenerated and justified in Christ are among the elect, but some are not…
**

We, then, call men elected, and Christ’s disciples, and God’s children, because they are to be so called whom, being regenerated, we see to live piously; but they are then truly what they are called if they shall abide in that on account of which they are so called. But if they have not perseverance,–that is, if they continue not in that which they have begun to be,–they are not truly called what they are called and are not; for they are not this in the sight of Him to whom it is known what they are going to be,–that is to say, from good men, bad men. (ibid, Ch 22)
**
The reprobate do not always lack grace from God. Some may be said to have received the gift of grace, but lack the gift of perseverence…

… But those who do not belong to this number of the predestinated … [some] receive the grace of God, but they are only for a season, and do not persevere; they forsake and are forsaken. For by their free will, as they have not received the gift of perseverance, they are sent away by the righteous and hidden judgment of God (ibid, Ch. 42)

If, however, being already regenerate and justified, he relapses of his own will into an evil life, assuredly he cannot say, “I have not received,” because of his own free choice to evil he has lost the grace of God, that he had received. (ibid, ch 9)

 

[Matt16_18]

Melchior

*I think it can take many forms. If someone is a Christian and commits mass murder, you have to assume they either never really believed and therefore were never saved or they have apostasized in deed if not word. *

Why the qualification of “mass murder” and not just plain old murder? If a Christian woman murders the child in her womb by abortion, and then does not repent of that murder, is she secure in her salvation? Is she an apostate by your new definition of apostasy?

Simply put if someone sins and feels no compulsion to repent they must be an apostate because they have denied the faith.

No one is born with a perfect conscience, and receiving baptism does not immediatly bestow a perfect conscience upon the Christian. Consciences must be formed by listening to the Church. We all start out in life with defective consciences. Some of us will have the defect of a scrupulous conscience, and some of us will have the defect of a licentious conscience. A person with a scrupulous conscience is constantly worried that he has committed sin, when in fact, he hasn’t. A person with a licentious conscience is able to sin without feeling guilty for his sins. A person with a licentious conscience is not an apostate; he is simply a man in need of a formed conscience.

How about answering my original question? Does a Lutheran that is living in unrepentant adultery have any good reason to believe that he won’t be damned if he continues to live as an unrepentant adulterer?

 

[Mijoy2]

b32865:

Since Melchior specifically asked for answers to Mijoy2’s post, I would like to respond to a few items.

First of all, Mijoy2 seems to think breaking one of the ten commandments is always “grievous matter”. I don’t think this is the case. My children’s St. Jos. Balt. Cat. gives the example of a child who thinks he committed a mortal sin by stealing a dime from his mother’s purse. He did not, in fact, commit a mortal sin even though he thinks he did because a dime is not a “grievous matter.”

Next, missing Mass (for Catholics) and masturbation: yes, with the conditions of full knowledge and consent (which you admitted might be missing). You ask, “How can anyone have peace knowing their friends and family members are in a state of mortal sin?” First of all, you don’t CERTAINLY know; but, if you strongly suspect, you’re not supposed to be at peace, you’re supposed to be praying and doing penance! (like Tantum ergo, like St. Monica)

Word about missing Mass: extenuating circumstances (sick, sick child, no Mass available, etc.) are understood to excuse one.

Word about masturbation: reflect on this: repeated sinning in this area (or any sexual deviancy) leads to DEEP unhappiness. A person will not stand still. He will get worse, or he will realize he is drowning and seek help to get better (the help he needs, of course, is baptism, or, if already baptized, confession and the Eucharist). Some people on this thread have mentioned THE GREAT DIVORCE by C.S. Lewis. I’d like to mention a book by another Inkling, DESCENT INTO HELL by Charles Williams. A portrait of a man’s descent into hell, as I recall it is linked to a sexual obsession.

If you think you couldn’t possibly be happy in heaven if someone you love rejects God, you are choosing that person over God. You are essentially repeating Adam’s sin, who so dearly loved Eve that he chose her over obedience to God.

Yes, the majority of nominal Catholics in this time and place do not seem to get it. Yet reflect: the Catholic Church teaches that God gives each and every soul sufficient grace to be saved (in contrast to Melchior, who, if I am understanding him correctly, needs to contribute his own saving faith). Each and every person’s life is a drama. You are not seeing the whole picture, you are not seeing the end of the picture. Pray and trust God. Be courageous in your witness.

Melchior, we understand that you can’t answer each and every post. May God bless you through these forums.

 

[Mijoy2]

b32865:

Since Melchior specifically asked for answers to Mijoy2’s post, I would like to respond to a few items.

First of all, Mijoy2 seems to think breaking one of the ten commandments is always “grievous matter”. I don’t think this is the case. My children’s St. Jos. Balt. Cat. gives the example of a child who thinks he committed a mortal sin by stealing a dime from his mother’s purse. He did not, in fact, commit a mortal sin even though he thinks he did because a dime is not a “grievous matter.”

Next, missing Mass (for Catholics) and masturbation: yes, with the conditions of full knowledge and consent (which you admitted might be missing). You ask, “How can anyone have peace knowing their friends and family members are in a state of mortal sin?” First of all, you don’t CERTAINLY know; but, if you strongly suspect, you’re not supposed to be at peace, you’re supposed to be praying and doing penance! (like Tantum ergo, like St. Monica)

Word about missing Mass: extenuating circumstances (sick, sick child, no Mass available, etc.) are understood to excuse one.

Word about masturbation: reflect on this: repeated sinning in this area (or any sexual deviancy) leads to DEEP unhappiness. A person will not stand still. He will get worse, or he will realize he is drowning and seek help to get better (the help he needs, of course, is baptism, or, if already baptized, confession and the Eucharist). Some people on this thread have mentioned THE GREAT DIVORCE by C.S. Lewis. I’d like to mention a book by another Inkling, DESCENT INTO HELL by Charles Williams. A portrait of a man’s descent into hell, as I recall it is linked to a sexual obsession.

If you think you couldn’t possibly be happy in heaven if someone you love rejects God, you are choosing that person over God. You are essentially repeating Adam’s sin, who so dearly loved Eve that he chose her over obedience to God.

Yes, the majority of nominal Catholics in this time and place do not seem to get it. Yet reflect: the Catholic Church teaches that God gives each and every soul sufficient grace to be saved (in contrast to Melchior, who, if I am understanding him correctly, needs to contribute his own saving faith). Each and every person’s life is a drama. You are not seeing the whole picture, you are not seeing the end of the picture. Pray and trust God. Be courageous in your witness.

Melchior, we understand that you can’t answer each and every post. May God bless you through these forums.

I am lacking for time today. I will read all the posts following this one in this thread when I can.

I wanted to express that I enjoyed this post. It makes sense and I greatly appreciate the contribution.