Catholic vs protestant

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Horton said:
God will not take it away, but we can turn our backs on it and suffer the consequences of our choices.
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How do you know you didn’t repent?

How do you know your last word or thoughts were… “Jesus, son of God, I’m a sinner have mercy on me?”

How do you know God doesn’t know you are sorry for what you did, for what happened… that repentance was in your heart? God knows you, you cause you know Him, why would that change in a millisecond?

How do you known you didn’t say or rather think I’m sorry, Lord forgive me in the millisecond before you died… and more importantly, how do you know God did not accept them and welcomed you with open arms?

The same salvation, Holy Spirit that’s telling you, you need to repent is the same Holy Spirit is helping you to repent even seconds before you died… why because YOU ARE SAVED by the power of JESUS CHRIST.

Based on what you said, it sounds like God will leave us when we need Him the most, I can’t believe Catholic’s would believe that?

I’m not saying repenting isn’t important, or repenting to a priest isn’t important… I’m saying one millisecond you do have a choice, you can chose to blame God for the accident in anger and turn from Him… or you can say sorry and don’t, so you are right, it is your choice. Refuse it, Reject it or Deny it… but salvation is always yours to have.
 
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Maybe believers baptism isn’t the correct term.
ltwin said:
which is definitely rejected by churches that teach “believer’s baptism” (other than a few exceptions that prove the rule).
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But even you state that some do. This is what I mean. For many Protestant churches (Again I can’t say all because there isn’t even consistency among certain variations in one denomination) there is no certainty, no consistency, no continuity. There is little unity outside one’s local church with the exception of some of the older mainline Protestant traditions like the Lutherans, Anglicans, Episcopalians, Reformed, and such.

How do you know it’s right? I grew up and spent a long time as an adult Protestant (older mainline tradition which slowly changed into mega church concert hall) and I never could say for certain it was the right one. There was always something missing. I even went to different denominations trying to find it and nothing.

I walked into my first Catholic Mass and I knew it was the right one. I expected to confirm my bias about those Catholics, but it was the exact opposite.
 
Horton said:
But even you state that some do.
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A very small number. I know of only 2 denominations that teach both believer’s baptism AND baptismal regeneration. The Churches of Christ is one (but they are decentralized so only some of them may even teach it). Oneness Pentecostals are another, but they believe water baptism is only 1 part of the formula (you need faith in Christ, water baptism and then Spirit baptism to truly be saved).

A garden variety Baptist or Pentecostal or Holiness or non-denominational Christian church is not going to teach “salvation by baptism”.
 
Because this is what God has taught us. Jesus has taught us this. It is in the bible. I can’t quote chapter & verse, besides I don’t cherry pick verses to attempt to prove what I say.

God is all merciful and certainly he may show me mercy in a situation like that, but I have no reason to expect it.
 
Horton said:
For many Protestant churches (Again I can’t say all because there isn’t even consistency among certain variations in one denomination) there is no certainty, no consistency, no continuity.
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On this issue there is much consistency. Churches that practice believer’s baptism overwhelmingly reject baptismal regeneration. To say otherwise is factually inaccurate.
Horton said:
There is little unity outside one’s local church with the exception of some of the older mainline Protestant traditions like the Lutherans, Anglicans, Episcopalians, Reformed, and such.
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Not on this. Evangelical Protestants are unified in the belief that we are justified by faith alone. Baptism is not necessary to receive forgiveness of sins or the new birth.
Horton said:
How do you know it’s right?
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How do you?
 
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Horton said:
Maybe believers baptism isn’t the correct term.
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Believer’s baptism is a term used in contrast to infant baptism as practiced by the Catholic Church and some other churches. It simply means a person should only be baptized when they themselves believe in Christ and can make a profession of faith. That excludes infants. You need to be at least old enough to affirm your own desire for baptism.

This is a video of a believer’s baptism
 
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There are two schools of thought, accept and you are saved without baptism. Accept and you are saved with baptism. I used to incline with the former, but realised that baptismal regeneration holds more accountability. Of course, baptism of blood and desire being the extraordinary cases.
 
annad347 said:
Based on what you said, it sounds like God will leave us when we need Him the most
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No, he explicitly said that doing so would be on him, not on God.
Horton said:
That is a mortal sin and I have separated myself from God’s grace and mercy. God has no blame here, it is all on me. I did something I knew was grave matter for me, I knew the potential consequences of my behavior, and I chose to do it anyway. I made the choice to go to hell.
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He will not abandon us, but neither will He force us or refuse to accept our rejection of Him. You can speculate all day about “the last millisecond before dying” but if the final decision is no, then no it is.
 
whatistrue said:
No, he explicitly said that doing so would be on him, not on God.
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Then why would someone who turned to God, his whole life turn from Him seconds before he dies?
Horton said:
Because this is what God has taught us. Jesus has taught us this. It is in the bible. I can’t quote chapter & verse, besides I don’t cherry pick verses to attempt to prove what I say.
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Maybe we can find it together… what are we looking for?
 
Horton said:
Salvation is not conditional in the Catholic Church. I’m sorry if you are having trouble understanding this.
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Well, i may be having trouble explaining the difference between OSAS and not. Do you then say there are no conditions to be met after water baptism to be “saved” ? I think OSAS teaches that all conditions will be met by His grace and love working in us, even in our will, such as perseverance, repentance as needed, works as fruits, etc.,etc.

Am I wrong in saying that a Catholic having to die in the state of grace to hope for final salvation is " conditional"?
Horton said:
I guess Papal Infallibility is another difficult concept for you.
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Well actually it is an easy concept to to not believe. It is also easy for some to to disregard such unbelief as misunderstanding her teaching (which has occurred), yet does not do away with legitimate critique. So if some misunderstand the teaching, some on the other side use dogmatic technicalities to deny the actual and practical critiquing.

For example, I have yet to see CC retract any declared (papal or council) required teaching to be believed, due to error. That is, all required points of faith teaching are as inspired as Holy Writ itself, without error. Again from my point of view this is more about CC than just “papal infallibility”, which is something in itself yet within “CC”.

My context is again how her reasoning for such perfect guidance in teaching on faith and morals is similar to OSAS rationale. That’s all.

But you are correct, that in the past such a stance was taken as a “misunderstanding”. It was said that to say, “the Pope in himself was infallible” (in teaching) was “an invention of Protestants, that it is no article of faith”…of course then came 1870, first Vatican, defining such infallibility as article of faith…( from Lives of Popes, by M.Walsh)

Please take no offense of my opinions…I do believe in inerrancy of scripture and the gospel teachings of the church “at large”, respecting firm foundation of our forefathers in the faith, even a Catholic faith.
 
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It is difficult to judge an individual’s salvation at the moment of death. There can be that small proportion who could decide to turn away in the final moment, vice versa. There is clearly no reason for someone to turn away at the final moment, but it is possible that someone can decide to turn away in the final moment. As to whether we have a say in that person’s salvation, I will prefer to leave it up to God.

As to the concept of those who genuinely believe and have left the faith due to unforeseen circumstances, some would say that they never had faith in the beginning.
Then, the issue is that what brings these same people back to church later on, they must have faith and then lost the faith during the time.

I am with whatistrue take on this, trying to explain it based on operational system, greatly undermines the free will.
 
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Justin_Mary said:
But that’s not salvation
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Didn’t say it was, I said when we have salvation, we can refuse it, deny it or reject it, but we don’t lose it. I posted that to show there is nothing we can do to lose God’s love.

maybe we each need to post how each of our church believe how we receive salvation… I thought we received salvation through baptism, when we are anointed with the oil and filled with The Holy Spirit… then confirm it through Confirmation, repair it though Repentance and enforce it with the Eucharist… all because we received the Holy Spirit.

We don’t do anything to earn it, we choose to accept it… once we accept it its is ours until we refuse it, deny it or reject it.
 
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Marymary32 said:
Hello! I wanted to know the difference between the catholic and protestant church. Which one should I join? Please tell me about differences in the lord’s supper or communion, rules maybe, and I’ve also heard that catholics pray to mary, is this true? And why?
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Among the significant differences between Catholics & Protestants is the OT canon. While they both agree on the same 27 book NT canon (as do all groups under Christendom), they don’t agree on the same OT canon. This Thursday, there is going to be a live YouTube discussion on the canon if you want to check it out:

Deuterocanon Round Table Discussion, Reason & Theology, Michael Lofton
 
Yes, I say the Church because it is what the Church declares, rules, instructs, advises, etc. It is the Church who tells us what the theology and law of the Church is. That is why I keep saying the Church. And, Christ established the Church to do this. Therefore, we can be certain that what the Church teaches us is God’s Will.
 
May be the priest does think he is being obedient. But, this is the problem here. It is a Protestant mentality. He thinks he is being obedient but it does not matter what he thinks. It is what the Church thinks that matters. Catholics follow the teaching of the Church established by Christ that cannot err. We do not make up our own individual opinions. The priest can hardly be obedient if he is being disobedient by leaving the Catholic Church and joining a non-Catholic Christian ecclesial community.

He may be validly able to do those things the Catholic Church says an ordained priest can do without faculties. However he does them illicitly. He was ordained as a Catholic priest and it is not being obedient to do what the Church says is illicit.

If the validity of a priest’s actions require not only the power of order but jurisdiction, i.e. faculties, from the Church he does nothing validly if he is now acting as a minister in a Protestant community.
 
TomH1 said:
If the validity of a priest’s actions require not only the power of order but jurisdiction, i.e. faculties, from the Church he does nothing validly if he is now acting as a minister in a Protestant community.
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Your last sentence does not follow. Such a priest does nothing licitly, in such a condition. But the sacrament remains a valid one, assuming all other sacramental factors are themselves valid.
 
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