Catholic vs Southern Baptist

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

You stand guilty of the same as you accuse me by your post. I tell you the truth from the word of God and you don’t like the truth. Not everyone saying they are a Christian is a Christian; most are not according to the Bible.

Two things make it easy to distinquish a professor from a possessor 1) what is the basis of salvation, the good news and 2) what is one’s true view on the veracity of Scripture as put in practice.

'The basic fact which theological teaching must take into account is that Sacred Scripture is the starting point, the permanent foundation, and the life-giving and animating principle of all theology.

The professor of biblical sciences must therefore carry out his mission with the competence and thorough scientific preparation that the importance of his discipline requires. To be faithful to his mission, he must deal, at different levels, with the text, with the event to which the text relates, and with the tradition which communicates and interprets the text.

But, while he applies textual, literary and historical analysis, he must also keep alive in the mind of his students an awareness of the unity and mystery of God’s plan. Since Scripture is passed on to us by the Church and in part came into existence within the Church, it requires to be read and understood in the light of ecclesiastical tradition’

(Pope Paul VI, Sacred Congregation for Catholic Education, The Theological Formation of Future Priests, 22 February 1976)

 

[Eutychus123]

The “altar” in a baptist church is usually either a table down in front of the pulpit or just the general area in front of the pulpit. A Baptist “altar” has no similarity in function whatsoever with a Catholic altar.

I used to be an American Baptist. We had a communion table and an ALTAR. I could never figure that one out. The altar seemed to have one function. After the offeratory, the collections plates were placed there.

 

[DerekD]

Can you truly believe the Catholics on this website dont read their bibles?

Yes; as evident by the many quotes taken completely out of context and as evidenced by the continual defense of the Church in and against the teaching of Scripture; meaning more time defending the Church versus more time spent defending Scripture; it is the Protestants that are defending the Scripture.

No incentive to study the Bible? CCC 133 quote from Dei Verbum:

“The Church 'forcefully ad specifically exhorts all the Christian faithful…to learn ‘the surpassing knowledge of Jesus Christ’ (Fhilemon 3:8), by frequent reading of the divine Scriptures. 'Ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ” (St Jerome)

You did not show any reason here for reading or studying except for quoting a few men. If I were asked what the incentive to reading and studying I would say two things 1) To better know, so I can better serve and love the God who saved me and 2) so I can be prepared to give a defense to anyone whom asks about the Hope I have in me.

The Mass itself is very Biblical and goes through the whole of the Bible over a few years of daily Masses. We are receiving the teachings of Christ from our Apostolic Teachers. After all, Christ sent his teachers, representatives, ambassadors, Apostles, “to go and teach whatsoever He has taught them”

Christ told His disciples to go to the ends of the earth to make disciples, which all are called to spread the good news; not just the pastors and teachers. I would agree with you about the Mass if you took away the priesthood and the literal sacrafice, which neither are represented in the NT in the form your church uses.

We receive indulgences for reading the Bible. Even if you do not agree with indulgences you cannot deny that they are not an incentive to Catholics.

That’s nice that you receive some indulgence, can’t find that in the Bible either.

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

Derek D

Reading your posting I had to make comment,

‘There are some who clearly distort the sense of the definition laid down by the First Vatican Council as to the divine authority of the Bible…They even use misguided language about the human meaning of the sacred books, under which a divine meaning is concealed, and claim that only this divine meaning is infallible. In their interpretation of Scripture they will not take into consideration the harmony of revealed truths with one another, nor pay attention to the tradition of the Church’ (Encyclical Letter, Humani Generis, 1950)

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

I used to be an American Baptist. We had a communion table and an ALTAR. I could never figure that one out. The altar seemed to have one function. After the offeratory, the collections plates were placed there.

Reads a lot like a desciption of a Post-Vatican 2 church, and I have the same reaction as yourself, “I could never figure that one out.”

In many Catholic Churches a table has been set up in front of the consecrated altar (which is now ‘relatively redundant’), reason being “So we can all gather around a table” Go figure!

And this holds even if the priest is able to face the ‘congregation.’

At Easter in the Catholic Church there is a tradition of stripping the altar. Now we strip a table and dress the altar from the table. Go figure!

 

[DerekD]

'The basic fact which theological teaching must take into account is that Sacred Scripture is the starting point, the permanent foundation, and the life-giving and animating principle of all theology.

The professor of biblical sciences must therefore carry out his mission with the competence and thorough scientific preparation that the importance of his discipline requires. To be faithful to his mission, he must deal, at different levels, with the text, with the event to which the text relates, and with the tradition which communicates and interprets the text.

But, while he applies textual, literary and historical analysis, he must also keep alive in the mind of his students an awareness of the unity and mystery of God’s plan. Since Scripture is passed on to us by the Church and in part came into existence within the Church, it requires to be read and understood in the light of ecclesiastical tradition’

(Pope VI, Sacred Congregation for Catholic Education, The Theological Formation of Future Priests, 22 February 1976)

Sounds like the ignorant, dumb and uneducated cannot understand the gospel, which is contrary to the teaching of the Biblical writers. Unfortunately for this writer, he has it backwards, tradition is determined in light of Scripture, not tradition of men determining what God has said. Scripture will verify itself through repetition and only revealed to those who have accepted Christ soley on the basis of faith in God, those are the only ones that have the HS as their guide and teacher.

 

[DerekD]

Derek D

Reading your posting I had to make comment,

‘There are some who clearly distort the sense of the definition laid down by the First Vatican Council as to the divine authority of the Bible…They even use misguided language about the human meaning of the sacred books, under which a divine meaning is concealed, and claim that only this divine meaning is infallible. In their interpretation of Scripture they will not take into consideration the harmony of revealed truths with one another, nor pay attention to the tradition of the Church’ (Encyclical Letter, Humani Generis, 1950)

Reading your posts; you seem to have no thoughts of your own; were you trying to make a point?

 

[DerekD]

It sounds then like Catholocism is perfect for you. I think the whole point of whatever religion you take part in is that it should make you want to know Christ better. It should make you want to get closer to him. If, as a Christian, you feel that communion should be a ritual performed every day or once a week, or once a month, or every two months, then I think that’s what’s right for you. I don’t personally believe that the bible spells out specifically how often it should be done. I personally see nothing wrong with the way Catholics do it, nor do I see a problem with the way Baptists do it. Filioque, it looks like you’ve been to all kinds of services and for you Catholocism hits home. I went to a church today, and there was a line in their church bulletin that said, “If you already have a church home, then we respect your relationship with Christ. If you don’t then we invite you into our congregation.” I think that sums up how I feel personally. For me Catholocism feels like it lacks soul and has a bit too much routine. For you a protestant communion may have felt the same way. It’s interesting how different people can come away with such completely different experiences. We could probably attend the exact same Mass and leave with vastly different opinions. To me thats a big part of experiencing Christ.

You are apparently a new believer or ignorant of other religions; as you mature in your faith you will distinquish the genuine and easily spot the faults of other religions. i encourage to to continue walking in Christ and begin to see how other religions change the message of the gospel; pay close attention to justification; this is where the attack on the gospel generally is assulted.

 

[DerekD]

I can’t be dogmatic; I, like God, look at people on a case by case basis beginning with what one believes about the gospel and what view they for Scripture. If an individual rejects the gospel, which is done in a variety of ways, then they are not a Christian. I do not condemn anyone; they will condemn themselves and it is God’s authority to do so plus we do not know when the HS will enter into a life to change it.

If someone holds onto the teaching of your church and believe them with their heart, mind and soul, then I wouldn’t want to be them. I would never want ot be a Pope or priest or bishop in your church.

I belong to a Southern Baptist church, not because it is southern baptist, but because they hold the standards taught in the Bible. What I have found unique about the SBC’s in my area is that when you walk into one, you have walked into all of them. I do not put any emphasis on denomination; you are either Christian or you are not, God has entered you or He has not.

 

[reteeks21]

Sadly, that’s what it sounds like. And for some reason I seriously doubt that one Baptist church is like the other. I know they are not. I was a Baptist for a LOOOOOOOOONG time. In fact, they are all set up (it’s in the Baptist statement of faith) that each church is autonomous. That’s why many of Baptist churches have left the SBC and joined the CBF.

 

[DerekD]

As a whole I do not know; most Catholics are the cafeteria variety; therefore you must go back to the original post; one person at a time, do you understand and accept the gospel as the Savior and disciples have iterated in Gods Word? and what is one’s view of God’s word? The naswer to those two questions makes it very easy to determine the true spirituality of the individual, but getting these questions correct doesn’t mean they are Christian, but answering them wron does mean they are not at that moment in time; ultimately as long as one is breathing the Hope is available.

 

[Karen1960]

You are apparently a new believer or ignorant of other religions; as you mature in your faith you will distinquish the genuine and easily spot the faults of other religions. i encourage to to continue walking in Christ and begin to see how other religions change the message of the gospel; pay close attention to justification; this is where the attack on the gospel generally is assulted.

See above the darken part of your post. I have seen this many times posted by by Protestants, on another site, known for anti-catholic attacks, tell me **exactly **what you mean by this and how The Catholic Church changed the message of The Gospel.

 

[ralphinal]

Serious question for all Southern Baptists: does it bother you at all that the only reason your denomination exists is because a group of White men felt that it was a God-Given right to own African Slaves? Does it indicate the fact that your faith may not be inspired by God but created by men/

 

[reteeks21]

There’s an old joke that one day Saint Peter was leading some recent arrivals to Heaven around a grand ole building. They were awed and amazed at the splendor, but then they came to a room and Peter told them to keep it down so the people inside wouldn’t hear them. When one of the new arrivals asked why Peter told him “cause that’s where the Southern Baptists are, and they think they are the only ones in here.”

 

[DerekD]

Sadly, that’s what it sounds like. And for some reason I seriously doubt that one Baptist church is like the other. I know they are not. I was a Baptist for a LOOOOOOOOONG time. In fact, they are all set up (it’s in the Baptist statement of faith) that each church is autonomous. That’s why many of Baptist churches have left the SBC and joined the CBF.

Sadly; you did not read in context; I said that in my area; the SBC churches I have been to are uniquely the same. I did not make a blanket statement that you implied I did. Read carefully before you respond to avoid errors such as the one above.

 

[reteeks21]

Sadly; you did not read in context; I said that in my area; the SBC churches I have been to are uniquely the same. I did not make a blanket statement that you implied I did. Read carefully before you respond to avoid errors such as the one above.

You’re going to accuse me of errors? Try checking yourself for the same thing. One Baptist church is not distinctly just like the other no matter where they are. They are all set up autonomosly, just like I said. If they were all the same there probably wouldn’t be a 1st, 2nd, 3rd etc Baptist church in each town. If you mean they are all the same because they have an altar call then I guess you are right. Wait a minute. Where is that idea in Scripture? I guess you could say the Baptists aren’t exactly holding to the true teachings of the Apostles either. Nothing like stuff man makes up!

 

[DerekD]

See above the darken part of your post. I have seen this many times posted by by Protestants, on another site, known for anti-catholic attacks, tell me **exactly **what you mean by this and how The Catholic Church changed the message of The Gospel.

I will as soon as you tell me the teaching of your church on justification; being right before God.

 

[DerekD]

Avoiding direct and blanket statements is a must for many reasons. Do you like to make blanket statements? od saves on an individual basis, not on a group basis. He says the same in the NT as the OT, the difference being the OTer’s looked to the cross and we look back at the cross, but the basis of salvation has always been the same…pure grace, by faith and that not of ourselves nor of works it is a gift of God.

Has nothing to do with “anti-Catholic”; it is about anti-Christian doctrine wherever it appears.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

I will as soon as you tell me the teaching of your church on justification; being right before God.

Avoiding direct and blanket statements is a must for many reasons. Do you like to make blanket statements? od saves on an individual basis, not on a group basis. He says the same in the NT as the OT, the difference being the OTer’s looked to the cross and we look back at the cross, but the basis of salvation has always been the same…pure grace, by faith and that not of ourselves nor of works it is a gift of God.

Has nothing to do with “anti-Catholic”; it is about anti-Christian doctrine wherever it appears.

You want the Catholic definition of Justification? Here you go. Now answer the question!

CCC
1990 Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God’s merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.

1991 Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God’s righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or “justice”) here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.

1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:40

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.41

1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight.42

1994 Justification is the most excellent work of God’s love made manifest in Christ Jesus and granted by the Holy Spirit. It is the opinion of St. Augustine that “the justification of the wicked is a greater work than the creation of heaven and earth,” because "heaven and earth will pass away but the salvation and justification of the elect . . . will not pass away."43 He holds also that the justification of sinners surpasses the creation of the angels in justice, in that it bears witness to a greater mercy.

1995 The Holy Spirit is the master of the interior life. By giving birth to the "inner man,"44 justification entails the sanctification of his whole being:

Just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification. . . . But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life.45

II. GRACE

1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46

 

[reteeks21]

You want the Catholic definition of Justification? Here you go. Now answer the question!

CCC
1990 Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God’s merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.

1991 Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God’s righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or “justice”) here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.

1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:40

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.41

1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight.42

1994 Justification is the most excellent work of God’s love made manifest in Christ Jesus and granted by the Holy Spirit. It is the opinion of St. Augustine that “the justification of the wicked is a greater work than the creation of heaven and earth,” because "heaven and earth will pass away but the salvation and justification of the elect . . . will not pass away."43 He holds also that the justification of sinners surpasses the creation of the angels in justice, in that it bears witness to a greater mercy.

1995 The Holy Spirit is the master of the interior life. By giving birth to the "inner man,"44 justification entails the sanctification of his whole being:

Just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification. . . . But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life.45

II. GRACE

1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46

Wow. That was great stuff! Wasn’t too hard to look from the horse’s mouth either, was it?