Catholic vs Southern Baptist

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

I agree with this with exception of the distinction between mortal and venial sins.
Derek, from one SB to another: do you think the RCC, as a whole, is Christian? I do. In fact, even if you say a less percentage of RCs than SBs are saved (I don’t), there will be far more Catholics in heaven than SBs by force of sheer numbers. To adapt a quote from Fox News contributor Fr. Jonathan Morris, many faithful Roman Catholics will get in to heaven ahead of the throngs of wishy-washy Southern Baptists who only darken the church doors for their baptism, wedding, Christmas, Easter, and their own funeral.

Honestly, I hesitated over writing ‘venial’, but I put before you the Catholic Faith, giving with open hand, keeping nothing back. Maybe I should have written “slight spiritual blemishes” but this is not how it is written in the Articles of Faith.

I remember as a child being terrified and angry when I read in St Paul’s ‘Epistle to the Romans’ what I thought a gross miscarriage of justice - that only Jesus Christ gets to heaven. I stopped being a Christian for a time, I thought it all so hopeless. So unfair. No matter how hard anyone tries, only Jesus will get there.

 

[Paul3144]

Honestly, I hesitated over writing ‘venial’, but I put before you the Catholic Faith, giving with open hand, keeping nothing back. Maybe I should have written “slight spiritual blemishes” but this is not how it is written in the Articles of Faith.

No, tell me the Catholic faith. It’s honesty that will lead to a better understanding of each other. Don’t hold back.

I remember as a child being terrified and angry when I read in St Paul’s ‘Epistle to the Romans’ what I thought a gross miscarriage of justice - that only Jesus Christ gets to heaven. I stopped being a Christian for a time, I thought it all so hopeless. So unfair. No matter how hard anyone tries, only Jesus will get there.

I think I’m missing your point here. Can you explain further?

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

The doctrine of the Protestant Reformers that the Bible, privately interpreted by each reader is the one and only sure and easy means of determining what we should believe implies that all truths necessary for salvation are found in the Bible and everyone can and ought to be able to find the truth by reading the Bible. For a lot of reasons both positions are wrong:

1. 
   *]This is contrary to the teaching of the Bible (2 Thess 2:15)
   *]The Bible never gives a list of its contents
   *]Christ did not send the Apostles to write but to preach
   *]The teachings of the Church preceded the writings of Sacred Scripture
   *]For 3 centuries after Christ there was no standard and uniform text
   *]Christ never said the ability to read was necessary for salvation
   *]Most people read a translation - a paraphrase of the original text
   
   (Acts 8:3) St Phillip did not say to the Ethiopian, keep reading. He instructed him in understanding. Then the Ethiopian was baptised.

 

[DerekD]

Of course I am saved, but according the the full teachings of the bible which includes baptism for the remisson of sin see acts 2:38 amoung other scriptures that clearly state that baptism if a part of salvation and not something done after sins are already forgiven. Which directly contradicts the plain teachings of the four (not one) gospels.

That’s my main problem with Evangelicals in general and not just Baptists. Yall decide your theology first and then look for proof texts to back you up. While ignoreing the rest of what is taught inSacred Scripture.

That theology’s opposed to the bible itself, instead of coming from the bible.

You hate the CC so much as amply proven my your words, That your theology is formed in opposition to the Church and not from the bible.

The problem is with you and since you believe water baptism must be done to be saved; you are fooling yourself. Acts 2:38 would contradict Scripture if you render it as a neccessity to be saved. Put into the proper construction it accords with the rest of Scripture. Only the baptism of the HS is proof of one actually being saved, which is why faith alone is so essential to the gospel; it is based soley on God, not something you do, then in return get something back, which is what you are describing in Acts 2:38.

How could you begin to reconcile with what Peter said concerning how he and the rest received the HS; was by an act of water baptism? Of course not. Has God then changed? Of course not. did He ever save anyone except on the basis of faith? No, not in the NT or OT. Therefore, you show you do not believe the gospel and substitute it for another; reach really is not another but a wrong one.

Here is your test: Reconcile Acts 2:38 to the following:
Luke 3:16 John answered, saying to all, "I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. ***He {Jesus} will baptize you with the Holy Spirit ***and fire.

Acts 10 is interesting because here Peter tells us how they received the HS and notice it happens “immediately” after listening and believing. Actually this was delayed a little because God wanted to show the Jews, notice Peter and the circumcised were with him, that they , the gentiles were no different than the Jews, Peter enven made those Jews with him do the water baptism so God would have Jewish witnesses that the Gentiles received the exact same thing i the exact same way, no differences. The wisdom of God.
Acts 10 :44-47 **While Peter was still speaking **these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because ***the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles ***also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we {did,} can he?" At what point were these folks saved and what is the seal of that salvation? after believing and the seal is the HS.

Acts 15 makes it even clearer as to the order of justification, which is 1) hear the message, 2) believe the message and 3) receive the Spirit of promise - water ceremonies have nothing to do with the removal of sin or or the infusion, as Catholics would say, of saving grace.

Acts 15 Acts 15 -
"And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as {He did} upon us at the beginning. 16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 "Therefore; if God gave to them the same gift as {He gave} to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ,

I will end with Galatians
Galatians 3:26-27
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus {This is the essential gospel message}. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. - This is none other than the baptism of the HS.

If you are truly Christian you will look and consider and if you determine what I have proven is correct, then you will show wisdom by accepting what you have learned with gratitude toward God and reject that which is wrong; therefore gaining wisdom and understanding.

 

[DerekD]

‘For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God is absolutely necessary’ (De Fide)

‘Internal supernatural grace is absolutely necessary for the beginning of faith and of salvation’ (De Fide)

‘The justified also require actual grace for the performance of salutary acts’ (De Fide)

‘Without the special help of God the justified cannot persevere to the end in justification’ (De Fide)

‘The justified person is not able for his whole life long to avoid all sins, even venial sins, without the special priviledge of the grace of God’ (De Fide)

Life for a Catholic is life lived in grace:thumbsup:

I have no doubt that your life is lived on the basis of works believing that saving grace is infused into you as you continue to try to make your way to heaven.

 

[DerekD]

I agree with this with exception of the distinction between mortal and venial sins.

Derek, from one SB to another: do you think the RCC, as a whole, is Christian? I do. In fact, even if you say a less percentage of RCs than SBs are saved (I don’t), there will be far more Catholics in heaven than SBs by force of sheer numbers. To adapt a quote from Fox News contributor Fr. Jonathan Morris, many faithful Roman Catholics will get in to heaven ahead of the throngs of wishy-washy Southern Baptists who only darken the church doors for their baptism, wedding, Christmas, Easter, and their own funeral.

Look at the sentace above the distinction “between mortal and venial sins”; how could you not see the error there? I do not look at a religion as whole in the sense that the religion is made up of individuals, which god only looks at individuals, one at a time. the doctrine taught by the Catholic Chrisr are a works righteousness doctrines, which puts them under a legal set of values in order to reach heaven. The Bible would refer to this as “being under the Law”. i will give you an example, if anyone believes that the only way they can be saved is by participation in the act of water baptism, then the free gift of grace through faith is no longer grace because now the gift is earned on the merits of some act; unless that person see god for who He really is and accepts His gift freely, then that person will not see the kingdom of God unless later in their live God choses to unveil their blindness.

You made mention of a “numbers game” believing more Catholics will be in heaven than Baptist, God does not see things n that way. I am only a Baptist in the since that this is a church that I have found that maintains Biblical principles and are not afraid to teach all of what God has said. I am a Christian and could frankly careless about the denomination.

It is a huge flag when one is more concerned about their religious title, Catholic, Baptist, Luthern, LDS et al, then they are knowing if they are Christian and I’m not saying you feel that way; it is a general statement based on knowing God’s character.

 

[AwGusTeen]

The question you posed is ridiculous to start with, but the answer you were given is correct. snip… He choses whom He choses and He is just and fair in doing so for all have sinned and violated His prefect holiness and everyone deserves hell; so anyone whom He choses to give to His Son is a pure act of mercy on His part. Any disagreement?

Oh absolutely. You are leaving out one VERY big component - that of of free will.
Pax

 

[DerekD]

Oh absolutely. You are leaving out one VERY big component - that of of free will.
Pax

Free will, where does that come from? God What does the Bible say concerning man and choosing Him? None would.

It works like this; when God unveils Himself to a person; He is so desireable that no one can resist His beauty and will really want Him. So aprt from God revealing Himself; the only choice anyone would make would to run away from God and into the lust of the flesh. All those who are saved have had this experience and know exactly what i am saying.

 

[AwGusTeen]

Free will, where does that come from? God What does the Bible say concerning man and choosing Him? None would.

It works like this; when God unveils Himself to a person; He is so desireable that no one can resist His beauty and will really want Him. So aprt from God revealing Himself; the only choice anyone would make would to run away from God and into the lust of the flesh. All those who are saved have had this experience and know exactly what i am saying.

Oh lordy… Ladies and gentlemen - what we have here is someone who honestly believes that those who do not believe as he/she does, is not saved and therefore cannot know what DerekD is talking about (special knowledge). This sounds remarkably like the old heresy of Gnosticism. Judge not DerekD - you know not the heart of every person.

This also indicates a modern trend that I see taking place in Southern Baptist Churches. Their seminaries are turning out ever increasing numbers of Calvinists, causing ever increasing numbers of splits, adding to the ever growing number of protestant churches who can’t even agree over basic doctrines amongst themselves.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Oh lordy… Ladies and gentlemen - what we have here is someone who honestly believes that those who do not believe as he/she does, is not saved and therefore cannot know what DerekD is talking about (special knowledge). This sounds remarkably like the old heresy of Gnosticism. Judge not DerekD - you know not the heart of every person.

This also indicates a modern trend that I see taking place in Southern Baptist Churches. Their seminaries are turning out ever increasing numbers of Calvinists, causing ever increasing numbers of splits, adding to the ever growing number of protestant churches who can’t even agree over basic doctrines amongst themselves.

Good post

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

I have no doubt that your life is lived on the basis of works believing that saving grace is infused into you as you continue to try to make your way to heaven.

Derek, 'if the just man turn himself away from his justice, and do iniquity according to all abominations which the wicked man useth to work, shall he live *(i.e. be in a state of sanctifying grace)? All his justices which he has done shall not be remembered: in the prevarication by which he has prevaricated, and in his sin, which he hath committed, in them he shall die (i.e. he will be in the state of sin, with his soul dead to God’s grace, and *he will go to Hell if he dies in that state)… And when the wicked turneth himself away from his wickedness, which he has wrought (sin), and doeth judgment and justice, he shall save his soul alive’(Ez 18:24,27)

 

[pipper]

The problem is with you and since you believe water baptism must be done to be saved; you are fooling yourself. Acts 2:38 would contradict Scripture if you render it as a neccessity to be saved. Put into the proper construction it accords with the rest of Scripture. Only the baptism of the HS is proof of one actually being saved, which is why faith alone is so essential to the gospel; it is based soley on God, not something you do, then in return get something back, which is what you are describing in Acts 2:38.

How could you begin to reconcile with what Peter said concerning how he and the rest received the HS; was by an act of water baptism? Of course not. Has God then changed? Of course not. did He ever save anyone except on the basis of faith? No, not in the NT or OT. Therefore, you show you do not believe the gospel and substitute it for another; reach really is not another but a wrong one.

Here is your test: Reconcile Acts 2:38 to the following:
Luke 3:16 John answered, saying to all, "I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. ***He {Jesus} will baptize you with the Holy Spirit ***and fire.

Acts 10 is interesting because here Peter tells us how they received the HS and notice it happens “immediately” after listening and believing. Actually this was delayed a little because God wanted to show the Jews, notice Peter and the circumcised were with him, that they , the gentiles were no different than the Jews, Peter enven made those Jews with him do the water baptism so God would have Jewish witnesses that the Gentiles received the exact same thing i the exact same way, no differences. The wisdom of God.
Acts 10 :44-47 **While Peter was still speaking **these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because ***the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles ***also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we {did,} can he?" At what point were these folks saved and what is the seal of that salvation? after believing and the seal is the HS.

Acts 15 makes it even clearer as to the order of justification, which is 1) hear the message, 2) believe the message and 3) receive the Spirit of promise - water ceremonies have nothing to do with the removal of sin or or the infusion, as Catholics would say, of saving grace.

Acts 15 Acts 15 -
"And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as {He did} upon us at the beginning. 16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 "Therefore; if God gave to them the same gift as {He gave} to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ,

I will end with Galatians
Galatians 3:26-27
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus {This is the essential gospel message}. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. - This is none other than the baptism of the HS.

If you are truly Christian you will look and consider and if you determine what I have proven is correct, then you will show wisdom by accepting what you have learned with gratitude toward God and reject that which is wrong; therefore gaining wisdom and understanding.

As usual you follow the Evangelical practice of deciding your “gettin saved” theology first. And then finding proof texts in the bible which you twist into seemingly “supporting” your previously decided theology and ignoring the rest of the bible. Just like Evangelicals twist the words of Our Lord “this IS my body” into this only is a symbol of my body.

I have no inkling of “water baptism” which is never used once in the bible. It is just baptism. Please quoute to me one single verse that uses the phrase “water” baptism. You can’t because the phrase does not appear in the bible. When we are baptised it is God doing the work, and not us. And baptism is a sacrament, not an “ordinance” or “ceremony” as you put it.

I was already exposed to your twisting and omissions since I was raised and baptised by dunking as a mature beleiver. I was baptised in the so called “church of Christ” for the remission of sins. And aside from the age requirement and the amount of water used they get baptism used they do get baptism correct. I left that fundmental sect do to their ingnoring the rest of scripture, they like all Evangelical Fundamentalists decide their theology first and ignore the parts of scripture that contradict that theology.

As soon as I escaped thier abusive grasp I was confirmed into the real Church of Christ the one holy catholic and apostolic church.

 

[izoid]

That’s nice that you receive some indulgence, can’t find that in the Bible either.

For nearly 20 years I was a dyed in the wool Sola Scriptura guy…until I realized that it was not in the Bible.

 

[DerekD]

Oh lordy… Ladies and gentlemen - what we have here is someone who honestly believes that those who do not believe as he/she does, is not saved and therefore cannot know what DerekD is talking about (special knowledge). This sounds remarkably like the old heresy of Gnosticism. Judge not DerekD - you know not the heart of every person.

This also indicates a modern trend that I see taking place in Southern Baptist Churches. Their seminaries are turning out ever increasing numbers of Calvinists, causing ever increasing numbers of splits, adding to the ever growing number of protestant churches who can’t even agree over basic doctrines amongst themselves.

Your comments show ignorance of God; yet the veil remains which does not allow you to see.

As I said, the redeemed know exactly what I am talking about; you obviously have nothing to add other than your sarcasm. 3 nails + 1 cross = 4 given

I’m certain Calvin knew a great deal more about God and His character and attributes than you may ever begin to know; however no one knows when the HS will remove the veil of unbelief. I pray that happens to you soon as you are getting up there in age.

 

[izoid]

I belong to a Southern Baptist church, not because it is southern baptist, but because they hold the standards taught in the Bible. What I have found unique about the SBC’s in my area is that when you walk into one, you have walked into all of them. I do not put any emphasis on denomination; you are either Christian or you are not, God has entered you or He has not.

If you hold to the standards taught in the Bible why do you only baptize believers? Peter told the crowd at Pentecost to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins.

 

[izoid]

RESUMED FROM PREV> POST

Romans 3
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law {comes} the knowledge of sin. 21 But now apart from the Law {the} righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. {This was} to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26 for the demonstration, {I say,} of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

When ever you see the term law, think of the legalistic Jewish mosaic law; Christ had much to say about the legalists and God has always saved people the same way through faith by His grace. The legalist will always add somethng to the gift, as though man has anything to do with his salvation. the legalist will always add some activity to the gift of grace therfore voiding the gift of grace and creating a false human standard, making God is his image as I see it.

I’ll tell you there are many ways to reject the gospel; believing one that is simialar, yet different is one way and flat out rejecting it is another. So if anyone holds to the doctrine of justification through water baptism or a sacrament or mixes sanctification (which is a works process) with being declared righteous (justified) by the propitiation of the blood of Jesus, then it is another gospel as taught in Scripture as I see it.

Who holds on to that belief within any specific local church I cannot say, but I can say that if anyone believes another gospel, then heaven has already pronounced a curse.

So Derek…what do you think James meant when he said that we are not saved by faith alone?

 

[DerekD]

Derek, 'if the just man turn himself away from his justice, and do iniquity according to all abominations which the wicked man useth to work, shall he live *(i.e. be in a state of sanctifying grace)? All his justices which he has done shall not be remembered: in the prevarication by which he has prevaricated, and in his sin, which he hath committed, in them he shall die (i.e. he will be in the state of sin, with his soul dead to God’s grace, and *he will go to Hell if he dies in that state)… And when the wicked turneth himself away from his wickedness, which he has wrought (sin), and doeth judgment and justice, he shall save his soul alive’(Ez 18:24,27)

Keep working your way and happy trails to you. You don’t believe God when He said:
“and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.” ***nor do you believe ***" Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?" nor do you believe God’s promise; “My Father, who has given {them} to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch {them} out of the Father’s hand.”

I hope and pray the Lord removes the veil of blindness from you as well…amen

 

[izoid]

Come on Derek, quit with all the smoke screens. I know your training has prepared you to answer difficult questions with questions of your own but I for one find that method lacking.

Please tell me what scriptural basis you have for Sola Scriptura. This doctrine is at the very heart and soul of our differences but can it be proven by scripture?

 

[DerekD]

As usual you follow the Evangelical practice of deciding your “gettin saved” theology first. And then finding proof texts in the bible which you twist into seemingly “supporting” your previously decided theology and ignoring the rest of the bible. Just like Evangelicals twist the words of Our Lord “this IS my body” into this only is a symbol of my body.

I have no inkling of “water baptism” which is never used once in the bible. It is just baptism. Please quoute to me one single verse that uses the phrase “water” baptism. You can’t because the phrase does not appear in the bible. When we are baptised it is God doing the work, and not us. And baptism is a sacrament, not an “ordinance” or “ceremony” as you put it.

I was already exposed to your twisting and omissions since I was raised and baptised by dunking as a mature beleiver. I was baptised in the so called “church of Christ” for the remission of sins. And aside from the age requirement and the amount of water used they get baptism used they do get baptism correct. I left that fundmental sect do to their ingnoring the rest of scripture, they like all Evangelical Fundamentalists decide their theology first and ignore the parts of scripture that contradict that theology.

As soon as I escaped thier abusive grasp I was confirmed into the real Church of Christ the one holy catholic and apostolic church.

You went from one form of legalism into another far more works based; you are 0 for 2 AISI; you might try the person of Christ; He is the only one that can save; it was one of His purposes for coming to earth in the flesh. You are pretty typical for this forum; you accuse someone of twisting the Scripture w/out showing how in any manner; yet it is laid before your eyes, then you defend the Church because well because it is the Church; that shows great faith on your part; greater than mine for sure.

The passage about water baptism was shown before your eyes; yet you can’t even see what you read; I know the Lord has a veil over people; but yours is extra thick I guess.

I’ll give you the NLT version; some say it it easier to understand, but I don’t care much for it myself.
Luke 3:16
John answered their questions by saying, "I baptize with water; but someone is coming soon who is greater than I am – so much greater that I am not even worthy to be his slave. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

In case your eyes still overlooked; I will give you the cross reference in Matthew
"**I baptize with water **those who turn from their sins and turn to God. But someone is coming soon who is far greater than I am – so much greater that I am not even worthy to be his slave. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

Just in case i will add another, which I have already shown:
47 “Surely **no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized **who have received the Holy Spirit just as we {did,} can he?”

Do you now see? I would be totally embarrassed to have someone put in my face a clear teaching about baptism and water baptism, claim to be a Christian, then make a statement that you have no inkling about water baptism and it is not in Scripture. We all make mistakes, but you obviously do not read or care to read the Scripture; Catholicism is very easy; the Church does all the work.

 

[AwGusTeen]

Your comments show ignorance of God; yet the veil remains which does not allow you to see.

As I said, the redeemed know exactly what I am talking about; you obviously have nothing to add other than your sarcasm. 3 nails + 1 cross = 4 given

I’m certain Calvin knew a great deal more about God and His character and attributes than you may ever begin to know; however no one knows when the HS will remove the veil of unbelief. I pray that happens to you soon as you are getting up there in age.

As I stated before, we know your beliefs; however, you have nothing to back them up (other than your own statements), so we are in the same place as we were before. You claim that anyone who believes differently from you is not saved and therefore is destined for hell.

Thus, I ask you – who gives you the authority to cast judgment on anyone’s eternal destination? Is it God? Your church? Yourself? Further, who is telling you that your interpretation of scripture is infallible while that of others is in error? Is it the Holy Spirit? Why is my interpretation less than yours? You have no standing before God other than that given you from above. So why are you in possesion of the truth while others are not?

By necessity, you are claiming special standing before God that others and I do not have. Please explain how this is possible. You cannot and are therefore anathema! When you can answer these questions, then others might take you seriously. Come on – step up to the plate!
.