Catholic vs Southern Baptist

[DocProct]

2 Tim 3:16-17

• Scripture is “profitable”. St Paul does not say it alone will be enough.
• Scripture is inspired by God. St Paul does not say only Scripture, he does not say God does not give His Authority to men to speak in His name (Cf. 2 Thess 2:15; 2 Tim 2:2)
• The preceding verse shows St Paul is speaking of the Old Testament (implication, the New Testament is not necessary!)
• The New Testament was not yet complete.

Man will not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of the God.

That should end any controversies between you two; there is no place other than Scripture where we have the voice of God.

 

[DocProct]

You appear to be confused Derek. Here you challenge me to show where the bible states a negative but in the very next post you open by saying you can’t prove a negative?

As for your assertion that Paul only taught what he later wrote down; show me the scripture that says this.

You see Derek, it is not my responsibility to prove or disprove a doctrine that was invented by men who rejected the teaching of 1500 plus years. That onus is on you my friend.

Your argument that anyone who believes differently than you is ignorant of the scriptures and does not posses the HS to guide them is really scary. It sounds very cultish to me. Is it possible that it is you Derek who is ignorant of the truths of God?

This type of conversation is exactly what drove me to the Catholic church. The tendency to divert the conversation when tough questions are raised, the arrogance and anger that many protestants bring to the table. Honest disagreement i fine, hostility and name calling is not. Please look for the answers to my question instead of reverting to the you show me first argument.

Where does scripture teach sola scriptura? It should be easy Derek. If you can’t prove your doctrine from scripture, your entire belief system needs to be re evaluated. After all, it i the basis of all you hold dear.

Why don’t you start here:
1 TIM 3:15
ACTS 16:4
2 TIM 1:13-14
2 TIM 2:2
ACTS 2:42
2 PETER 1:20
1 COR 11:2
1 THES 2:13
2 THES 2:15
2 THES 3:6

I think that was his point to you.
By the way, you open an entire can of worms with your post here; based on you premise, you would also need to use the same standard to show, the immaculate conception, the perpetual virginity, the office of a central church, the catholic priesthood, the pope, the mass - the list can go on, praying anyone other than God, worshiping statutes, dead saints and mary…you won’t any of those in the bible.

sola scripture is easy, jesus believed it and so did the rest, “man will not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God”; that is pretty explicit and the only place known to man for the mouth of God is the Bible. Plus it is in both the OT & NT

The law of the LORD is perfect, restoring the soul;

The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

8 The precepts of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart;

The commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.

This all refers to what proceed from the mouth of God.

 

[izoid]

Man will not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of the God.

That should end any controversies between you two; there is no place other than Scripture where we have the voice of God.

1 Thes 2:13. The oral teachings of the apostles, traditions, are equated with being the Word of God.

 

[izoid]

I think that was his point to you.
By the way, you open an entire can of worms with your post here; based on you premise, you would also need to use the same standard to show, the immaculate conception, the perpetual virginity, the office of a central church, the catholic priesthood, the pope, the mass - the list can go on, praying anyone other than God, worshiping statutes, dead saints and mary…you won’t any of those in the bible.

sola scripture is easy, jesus believed it and so did the rest, “man will not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God”; that is pretty explicit and the only place known to man for the mouth of God is the Bible. Plus it is in both the OT & NT

Your assertions regarding what the Catholic church teaches is full of errors, but I am sure you already know that. If we are going to discuss this you need to be honest.

I didn’t open an can of worms, the reformers did. I am not rejecting thousands of years of church teachings, the reformers are. Keep that in mind when you make these accusations.

If you take the time to read the Catechism, then read the scriptures and then compare that to the teachings and practices of the early church, early church fathers, you will see that Catholicism is the 1st century church. You don’t have to agree with it but to deny it is silly.

BTW…your proof text does not stand up under the scrutiny of the verses I listed. The written Word is not the ONLY place to hear Gods’s words.

 

[DocProct]

1 Thes 2:13. The oral teachings of the apostles, traditions, are equated with being the Word of God.

What are the oral traditions? According to the passage you cited it states they already existed; so what are they and how can you be sure?

 

[DocProct]

Your assertions regarding what the Catholic church teaches is full of errors, but I am sure you already know that. If we are going to discuss this you need to be honest.

I didn’t open an can of worms, the reformers did. I am not rejecting thousands of years of church teachings, the reformers are. Keep that in mind when you make these accusations.

If you take the time to read the Catechism, then read the scriptures and then compare that to the teachings and practices of the early church, early church fathers, you will see that Catholicism is the 1st century church. You don’t have to agree with it but to deny it is silly.

BTW…your proof text does not stand up under the scrutiny of the verses I listed. The written Word is not the ONLY place to hear Gods’s words.

I’ve read and studied the Catechisms and all the rest that was spoon fed to me 30 plus years ago before there was an RCIA, but it was called CCD. Every Wednesday night; like it or not.

 

[reteeks21]

I wonder how many Southern Baptist preachers and teachers use Sunday as a time to “add” their own interpretations of Scripture? I’ve seen it and I have heard it. That is exactly why there are so many Protestant churches and denominations. They think they are all the true church, and we see the chaos that has brought.

It’s funny to me that so many people say “you don’t get the Greek” but in turn they don’t “get the Aramaic”. The blade cuts both ways. It also tends to be those very same people who by into the rapture idea cause they found it in Scripture.

 

[izoid]

What are the oral traditions? According to the passage you cited it states they already existed; so what are they and how can you be sure?

Catholic teachings of course.

Read all of these verses and you tell me what they say about tradition, church authority and passing the teachings on.

1 TIM 3:15
ACTS 16:4
2 TIM 1:13-14
2 TIM 2:2
ACTS 2:42
2 PETER 1:20
1 COR 11:2
1 THES 2:13
2 THES 2:15
2 THES 3:6

 

[Bill_Pick]

Would you kindly point me to the verses that teach this very important doctrine?

When I read scripture I find scripture to be profitable but not sufficient. I find scripture to be “God breathed” but not the only way to know the truth. I see Paul’s words, traditions, to be given equal treatment as the written word. Paul himself tells us that his words are from God and not his own. Should we not listen to them and give them a place of prominence in determining our faith?

Now Derek, please give this some thought and don’t simply repeat what you have been taught. Set your preconceived ideas aside and really look at what scripture says. You do not need to prove a point, you do need to find the truth. I see a lot of myself in you and I know where you are coming from. Your zeal for God and His truth is clearly driving your life. Set aside your doctrinal position and really look into hat the Bible teaches, you may be surprised.

This may be off thread but can some one explain “God breathed” to me Please

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

Man will not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of the God.

That should end any controversies between you two; there is no place other than Scripture where we have the voice of God.

Are you reasoning the Bible was handed down from God to man in the beginning in the form we find it today?

Question: “How do we hear the voice of God?”

• We can hear the voice of God in the laws of nature
• We can hear the voice of God from reason
• We can hear the Word of God in relationship

("…there is no place other than Scripture where we have the voice of God" Wasn’t that one of the original prepositions to be argued in this thread?)

 

[kristanl]

I’ve read and studied the Catechisms and all the rest that was spoon fed to me 30 plus years ago before there was an RCIA, but it was called CCD. Every Wednesday night; like it or not.

RCIA and CCD are different things… And most churches do not require you to go to CCD except in 1st, 2nd, 9th, 10th grades. So I wonder how many times you actually went??

 

[rtconstant]

Oh lordy… Ladies and gentlemen - what we have here is someone who honestly believes that those who do not believe as he/she does, is not saved and therefore cannot know what DerekD is talking about (special knowledge). This sounds remarkably like the old heresy of Gnosticism. Judge not DerekD - you know not the heart of every person.

This also indicates a modern trend that I see taking place in Southern Baptist Churches. Their seminaries are turning out ever increasing numbers of Calvinists, causing ever increasing numbers of splits, adding to the ever growing number of protestant churches who can’t even agree over basic doctrines amongst themselves.

Yes, I’ve noticed that too. When I came out of the SBC I had been noticing for awhile a growing influence of Calvinism. Though to be fair that is strong part of the roots of the SBC, however, there was a period where they seemed to be moving away from that towards a somewhat more biblical view of things. However, when the conservatives regained control of the convention from the liberals, the fundamentalists saw it as their chance to slip in to the seminaries. During those days conservatives were so focused on getting people who believed in inerrancy into key positions they didn’t realize that there were other theological issues waiting in the wings.

A lot of these discussions remind me of my mom. God bless her but she’s hook line and sinker into baptist theology. So everything is tied to a feeling with her. Which of course you can’t debate against. If you disagree with her then “the Holy Spirit just hasn’t revealed that to you yet.”

 

[rtconstant]

Man will not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of the God.

That should end any controversies between you two; there is no place other than Scripture where we have the voice of God.

Says who?

 

[rtconstant]

What are the oral traditions? According to the passage you cited it states they already existed; so what are they and how can you be sure?

To the first question, all Christian doctrine derives from Tradition. The Bible itself is an extension of Tradition and its primary purpose is to support Tradition.

As to the second question, well we are sure in the same way you are sure that the New Testament that the Catholic Church protected, codexed and declared Canon, is inerrant.

 

[hmfogusmc]

I have a question too.

I was born and raised Southern Baptist. I became Catholic through RCIA in 2001. When I went to my first Mass i felt closer to God then all the years I endured the Southern Baptist. I meet my current wife August of 2001. She was also born and raised Southern Baptist. She came with me to a couple of Mass’s and she went to the Midnight Mass. She said it was like going to a play or something. I tryed to get her to visit again but her family was and is a big influence to her. So, i stoped going to keep the Drama down.

We got married outside the Catholic Church and had a son. I have been enduring the Baptist church since then. I have never felt right in the Baptist church. I am in the Marines and stationed in Beaufort,SC. I started going back to the Catholic way of life about two months ago. I go to Mass every Sunday and obligation days. I am going to tell her but i dont know when because I know Im going to be preached at. They will say im going to Hell if i dont change. They will prob say im lost and I need to get saved.

What she dont understand is that Im closer to Jesus now, just like I was when i was happy going to my church. I would love for her just to realize that the Catholic Church is the real church. I wish that we could all go to Mass as a family. I wish we could be a Catholic family.

Baptist just dont realize that we DONT WORSHIP MARY,THE POPE AND WE ARE NOT PAGONS WORSHIPING STATUES. That is what Baptist think. They are so close minded. I dont know what to do. Whould someone help me.

Thanks…

 

[Orchanian]

I have a question too.

I was born and raised Southern Baptist. I became Catholic through RCIA in 2001. When I went to my first Mass i felt closer to God then all the years I endured the Southern Baptist. I meet my current wife August of 2001. She was also born and raised Southern Baptist. She came with me to a couple of Mass’s and she went to the Midnight Mass. She said it was like going to a play or something. I tryed to get her to visit again but her family was and is a big influence to her. So, i stoped going to keep the Drama down.

We got married outside the Catholic Church and had a son. I have been enduring the Baptist church since then. I have never felt right in the Baptist church. I am in the Marines and stationed in Beaufort,SC. I started going back to the Catholic way of life about two months ago. I go to Mass every Sunday and obligation days. I am going to tell her but i dont know when because I know Im going to be preached at. They will say im going to Hell if i dont change. They will prob say im lost and I need to get saved.

What she dont understand is that Im closer to Jesus now, just like I was when i was happy going to my church. I would love for her just to realize that the Catholic Church is the real church. I wish that we could all go to Mass as a family. I wish we could be a Catholic family.

Baptist just dont realize that we DONT WORSHIP MARY,THE POPE AND WE ARE NOT PAGONS WORSHIPING STATUES. That is what Baptist think. They are so close minded. I dont know what to do. Whould someone help me.

Thanks…

I know what you are experiencing first hand. I’ve dealt with it by drawing closer to God through Mass and Adoration. As I grow in love for God, I grow in love for my husband (Baptist). I know that he feels as much distress at my being Catholic as I do at his being Baptist. We would both like to worship together as a family. We don’t do that fully right now (I’ll join him sometimes, but he won’t join me.) I’ve moved away from trying to change his mind (probably not going to happen because of me) to living a life loving Christ and all of my brothers and sisters in Christ (Catholic and non-Catholic). I am so filled with joy because of my relationship with God that even though I can’t share that with my husband, I still am so grateful for this joy and all that comes through the Catholic Church. I can accept this suffering and offer it up to God. I continue to pray for unity of faith in my family. I know I have to be patient. God is working on his time line, not mine. I am now bolder in telling him when I’m going to Mass (sometimes daily) and Confession, and doing things in the church. I correct errors I hear and try to admit when I don’t have the answers (still working on that one!)

I hope this helps in some way. I’ll pray for you and your family today.

 

[Supercatholic]

I have a question too.

I was born and raised Southern Baptist. I became Catholic through RCIA in 2001. When I went to my first Mass i felt closer to God then all the years I endured the Southern Baptist. I meet my current wife August of 2001. She was also born and raised Southern Baptist. She came with me to a couple of Mass’s and she went to the Midnight Mass. She said it was like going to a play or something. I tryed to get her to visit again but her family was and is a big influence to her. So, i stoped going to keep the Drama down.

We got married outside the Catholic Church and had a son. I have been enduring the Baptist church since then. I have never felt right in the Baptist church. I am in the Marines and stationed in Beaufort,SC. I started going back to the Catholic way of life about two months ago. I go to Mass every Sunday and obligation days. I am going to tell her but i dont know when because I know Im going to be preached at. They will say im going to Hell if i dont change. They will prob say im lost and I need to get saved.

What she dont understand is that Im closer to Jesus now, just like I was when i was happy going to my church. I would love for her just to realize that the Catholic Church is the real church. I wish that we could all go to Mass as a family. I wish we could be a Catholic family.

Baptist just dont realize that we DONT WORSHIP MARY,THE POPE AND WE ARE NOT PAGONS WORSHIPING STATUES. That is what Baptist think. They are so close minded. I dont know what to do. Whould someone help me.

Thanks…

First off, If your wife thinks a Catholic mass is like a play tell her I said going to a Baptist service is like going to a lecture given by a maniac. I recommend you go to page 1 of this thread and read post #5. It won’t be the be all end all argument of the Catholic faith, but it will put the burden square on your wife’s shoulders to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that the Baptist church is as bible believing as they claim to be. Here’s something else for her to chew on. The Baptist denomination was the eighth, the EIGHTH denomination to come along since the inception of the Protestant reformation. Not the first. So according to them the first seven got it wrong. Well they are right about that. The first seven DID get it wrong, but so did they. And every one else that’s come along since then. Stick to your Catholic faith. Continue going to Mass on Sundays and obligation days. Realize this, that not only does the Catholic church have some of the greatest treasures on earth, it IS the greatest treasure on earth. If you don’t already have it I suggest you get the dvd set Where Did The Bible Come From by Saint Michael’s Media. Remember, no denomination is a bigger enemy of the Catholic church than the Baptist denomination. STAY OUT OF THE ENEMY CAMP!

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

First off, If your wife thinks a Catholic mass is like a play tell her I said going to a Baptist service is like going to a lecture given by a maniac. I recommend you go to page 1 of this thread and read post #5. It won’t be the be all end all argument of the Catholic faith, but it will put the burden square on your wife’s shoulders to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that the Baptist church is as bible believing as they claim to be. Here’s something else for her to chew on. The Baptist denomination was the eighth, the EIGHTH denomination to come along since the inception of the Protestant reformation. Not the first. So according to them the first seven got it wrong. Well they are right about that. The first seven DID get it wrong, but so did they. And every one else that’s come along since then. Stick to your Catholic faith. Continue going to Mass on Sundays and obligation days. Realize this, that not only does the Catholic church have some of the greatest treasures on earth, it IS the greatest treasure on earth. If you don’t already have it I suggest you get the dvd set Where Did The Bible Come From by Saint Michael’s Media. Remember, no denomination is a bigger enemy of the Catholic church than the Baptist denomination. STAY OUT OF THE ENEMY CAMP!

This is somewhat uncharitable, despite being true. I would strongly advise against saying this. I can definitely see how a SB would see this in the Mass. It is not present.

You must show her the truth of your faith by your actions and by the light of Christ shining in your life. Do as St. Francis did and preach the Gospel at all times, and only when necessary use words.

I grew up around these people as well. There is nothing you can say that will sway them. Your actions are your only and best choice to preach the truth. Show her with the fruits of your life. When you continue attending mass the rest of your life will benefit from it, including your marriage. Allow her to see that without being overbearing (which is where I go astray often times). Hard as it may be, you are going to have to keep your mouth shut on this and just allow her to slowly come to terms with the fact that the mass is true, good, and holy. That it is not the satanic ritual she was raised to believe.

 

[Bill_Pick]

First off, If your wife thinks a Catholic mass is like a play tell her I said going to a Baptist service is like going to a lecture given by a maniac. I recommend you go to page 1 of this thread and read post #5. It won’t be the be all end all argument of the Catholic faith, but it will put the burden square on your wife’s shoulders to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that the Baptist church is as bible believing as they claim to be. Here’s something else for her to chew on. The Baptist denomination was the eighth, the EIGHTH denomination to come along since the inception of the Protestant reformation. Not the first. So according to them the first seven got it wrong. Well they are right about that. The first seven DID get it wrong, but so did they. And every one else that’s come along since then. Stick to your Catholic faith. Continue going to Mass on Sundays and obligation days. Realize this, that not only does the Catholic church have some of the greatest treasures on earth, it IS the greatest treasure on earth. If you don’t already have it I suggest you get the dvd set Where Did The Bible Come From by Saint Michael’s Media. Remember, no denomination is a bigger enemy of the Catholic church than the Baptist denomination. STAY OUT OF THE ENEMY CAMP!

Right on, good post

 

[Ben_F]

To Super Catholic. My life parallels yours. I was raised Southern Baptist, but now I am Catholic. I too am an ex Marine. I too was station at MCAS Beaufort. The only difference is you married a Baptist and I married a Catholic. If I can change there’s hope for your wife. Prayer really works. Do it. Semper Fi.