Catholic way of viewing the Bible and Tradition

[sirach2v4]

Furthermore (continuing from the previous post), no Christian denomination outside of Roman Catholicism can deny scripture, tradition, and magisterium.

Every such denomination has scripture, tradition, and magisterium, it’s just that in those non-Catholic denominations their tradition and magisterium is different (as well as scripture, for the extra books that Catholics have).

Catholics do not stand head-and-shoulders above other denominations in respect to having scripture, tradition, and magisterium. But, our Catholic faith is the correct combination of scripture, tradition, and magisterium.

Why would anybody rationally want to squeeze out tradition and magisterium? That really takes out the Spirit from the faith. scripture becomes, as Pope Benedict said, a dead letter. And squeezing out tradition and magisterium creates exactly what you see, a polyglot of churches and preachers. Recall, Christ created only one church. “upon this rock I will build my CHURCH.”

 

[christiantwo]

no Christian denomination outside of Roman Catholicism can deny scripture, tradition, and magisterium.

Every such denomination has scripture, tradition, and magisterium, it’s just that in those non-Catholic denominations their tradition and magisterium is different

Catholics do not stand head-and-shoulders above other denominations in respect to having scripture, tradition, and magisterium. But, our Catholic faith is the correct combination of scripture, tradition, and magisterium.

Why would anybody rationally want to squeeze out tradition and magisterium?

That really takes out the Spirit from the faith. scripture becomes, as Pope Benedict said, a dead letter.

And squeezing out tradition and magisterium creates exactly what you see, a polyglot of churches and preachers.

Recall, Christ created only one church. “upon this rock I will build my CHURCH.”

thanks for this – discussion–

i always figured that the CHURCH – or rather assembly-- woruld have the HOLY Spirit–

at least according to Peter – in acts 2;4 –
or Saint Paul in acts 19-

or in Acts chapter 6

3Brothers, select from among you seven reputable men, filled with the Spirit and wisdom, whom we shall appoint to this task,

Acts of the Apostles 7:1-60

The glory of the Lord is always resisted by the organized systems of men.

Religious man, determined to obtain the essence of life by his accomplishments, continually stands in opposition to the life of God,

which is freely given.

The failure to understand this mystery of life always drives man to attempt to save his life by his own actions.

Thinking that he can control the destiny of his life from within himself, man continually rejects the opportunity to experience the life of faith, the life of glory…

if a religious person does not have the In filling of the Holy Spirit – then as saint paul said in Romans 8 – there is a difference – in being part or a member of Jesus Christ’s church

 

[po18guy]

But do you disagree with any of those statements regarding the power of God’s Written Word? I probably only have issues with #'s 6&7.

Not at all. But, from those words, it is fairly easy to see that the bible (NOT a Sacrament) has replaced the Eucharist. And the scriptures can be and are distorted by the ignorant and unstable, as the Holy Eucharist cannot be. Who benefits from this? The master of division.

The thing is, is that as a Catholic, I see that the Church entrusted with writing, collecting, preserving and canonizing the writings God intended to be infallible and complete, is the same institution He entrusted His Eucharist first and foremost. The Bible came out of that blessed Church whom is sustained by His body and blood.

From your lips to sola scriptura ears! If one of your friends leaves you a note, and you need clarification, do you show it to someone else and ask them? Nope. You go to the source and ask that person for clarity. And, since the earthly source of the scriptures is the Church to whose members those words were given (and to which they were given for safeguarding), one should go to the Church for clarification and guidance.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

rcwitness:

While we agree that the Eucharist is the source and summit of Christian faith, I personally would not go to the extreme to say that those espousing SS are reducing the Bible to nothing else necessary. For example, I am sure they do not reject the fact that the Holy Spirit must move us to accept and lead us to follow the Written Word. Or that Baptism through the Church is necessary.

Better take another look. Evangelicals, who deny Baptismal regeneration are sweeping across South America, and especially converting Catholics. I’ve seen it happen here, and in my own family. None of my nephews and nieces are baptized nor are their own children, and I have scores, nor do they see any need. Evangelicals are de-Christianizing the West. Catholics are the MOST vulnerable to their errors, as they are the LEAST catechized Christians in existence.

 

[TimothyH]

The Bible is more than an icon or a symbol of God. The Bible is the breathed word of God.

Many Christians understand what Catholics seem to have lost. The Bible is alive and has power, and even says so itself. It is not just a collection of words about God, it is God himself speaking to each one of us as a loving Father speaks to his children.

The Bible does not come from the Church but from God through the Church. The Bible is a gift entrusted to the Church. The Church is the steward and protector of God’s written word. The Church serves the Bible, not the other way around.

-Tim-

 

[rcwitness]

Better take another look. Evangelicals, who deny Baptismal regeneration are sweeping across South America, and especially converting Catholics. I’ve seen it happen here, and in my own family. None of my nephews and nieces are baptized nor are their own children, and I have scores, nor do they see any need. Evangelicals are de-Christianizing the West. Catholics are the MOST vulnerable to their errors, as they are the LEAST catechized Christians in existence.

Well yes, there will always be your exceptions to any statement about Protestantism. It sweeps across the entire board. The road is wide into Protestantism. Just choose one that fits your outlook.

The Bible is more than an icon or a symbol of God. The Bible is the breathed word of God.

Many Christians understand what Catholics seem to have lost. The Bible is alive and has power, and even says so itself. It is not just a collection of words about God, it is God himself speaking to each one of us as a loving Father speaks to his children.

The Bible does not come from the Church but from God through the Church. The Bible is a gift entrusted to the Church. The Church is the steward and protector of God’s written word. The Church serves the Bible, not the other way around.

-Tim-

This is more toward my view about Scripture. But as someone quoted Benedict, without the discipline of the Catholic Church interpretation, which is also a gift entrusted to the Church, we would not have the unity which Scripture calls us to. We are all inclined to our own interpretation.

Just because someone has all motivation, and all zeal, and all desire to follow Bible alone, or Jesus alone, does not ensure they are listening to Jesus alone. Neither just because a protestant holds to SS does it mean they reject genuine gospel themes. They do receive the benefits of Christ’s body and blood, even unto salvation, but lack complete Communion with Him, no matter how devoted they try to be so long as they reject His true Eucharist.

 

[po18guy]

The Bible is more than an icon or a symbol of God. The Bible is the breathed word of God.

I think it is an icon of His word, since it is in a language that was never given to the inspired authors. If it is living, would it not also speak to the blind or illiterate? In short, it needs interpretation, and that is the Church.

Many Christians understand what Catholics seem to have lost. The Bible is alive and has power, and even says so itself. It is not just a collection of words about God, it is God himself speaking to each one of us as a loving Father speaks to his children.

The Bible does not come from the Church but from God through the Church. The Bible is a gift entrusted to the Church. The Church is the steward and protector of God’s written word. The Church serves the Bible, not the other way around.

-Tim-

The caveat here is regarding obviously corrupted (i.e. Watchtower) bibles. But, strictly and officially speaking, all non-Catholic bibles are corrupted to some slight degree.

What I am addressing is the near-idolatry that is assigned to the scriptures by written-word-onlyists. In rejecting the Eucharist, they have replaced it with what was given to the original authors (in the original language) as the inspired word of God, but which has been modified to fit man’s rebellious agenda. This divergence, however subtle, is the genesis of leading the faithful astray. And, I know whose work that is.

The Westboro Baptist Church justifies all that they do and say by God’s word. Who’s to judge?

 

[DebChris]

Jesus never said “You must be literate in order to be saved.” Before the invention of the printing press, Christians were dependent on hearing the Word of God, Few in fact were literate. Even those of us who are know that we can take a single sentence and interpret in different ways depending on the where we put the emphasis. This variance in interpretation, in fact, is where Patrick Madrid begins his discussion in his book Where is that in the Bible?
I do not worship the Bible. I worship God. The Word of God came in the flesh, died on the cross and rose again. He has given us His advocate, the Holy Spirit to guide us in all truth. It is the Holy Spirit who protects the Church, specifically the magisteium, or teaching authority from error so that they may bring us the same teachings that the Apostles received from Jesus Christ. These teachings are what the Church refers to as Tradition. This Tradition has been preserved in writing, the sacred scriptures. Jesus often referred to sacred scripture while teaching.
As we read the OT, we find that the even the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed when placed higher than God. The purpose of the temple was to worship God. The purpose of the Bible is to lead us to greater knowledge of God. As St. Jerome says, “Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of God.”
St. John of the Cross wrote about the importance of the priesthood in bringing the scriptures to the laity, in proclaiming the Word of God. “For the priest reads the scriptures, and the people read the priest.”
When we go to Mass, we go not simply to hear the words or read the words read from the Bible. At Mass, we hear the Word of God proclaimed during the Liturgy of the Word. We receive the Lord during the Liturgy of the Eucharist. We have much to be thankful for. Our Faith is a living Faith, not one bound between the pages of a book. We are sent forth to live what we have received.

 

[DebChris]

From Pope Francis’s exhortation to the Iraqi Christians:
“And who gives us this Word of God? The mother church! She nurses us as children with this Word. She raises us throughout our whole lives with this Word” and she teaches her children how to walk “the path of salvation” toward Christ.
“The church exerts itself to show the faithful the road to take to live a fruitful life of joy and peace” in a world filled with darkness, pain and temptation.
“The church guides us and accompanies us with the power of the Gospel and the support of the sacraments (which give) us the ability to defend ourselves from evil.”

 

[TimothyH]

I think it is an icon of His word, since it is in a language that was never given to the inspired authors. If it is living, would it not also speak to the blind or illiterate? In short, it needs interpretation, and that is the Church.

For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and spirit, of joints and marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. (Hebrews 4:12)

The blind and illiterate can listen to books on tape.

-Tim-

 

[po18guy]

For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and spirit, of joints and marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. (Hebrews 4:12)

The blind and illiterate can listen to books on tape.

-Tim-

But Tim, the Word of God is Jesus Christ, and the Word is living. I don’t think the author of Hebrews was referring to his own writing here, but rather to the living, breathing preaching of the Church. The written, copied, re-copied, translated, re-translated, printed, re-printed and bound word is another matter, otherwise the reformers were correct.

I absolutely love the scriptures, but paper and ink is not living or breathing. By this limited standard,the Westboro Baptist Church is correct.

Off I go to the catechism…

 

[TimothyH]

But Tim, the Word of God is Jesus Christ, and the Word is living. I don’t think the author of Hebrews was referring to his own writing here, but rather to the living, breathing preaching of the Church. The written, copied, re-copied, translated, re-translated, printed, re-printed and bound word is another matter, otherwise the reformers were correct.

I absolutely love the scriptures, but paper and ink is not living or breathing. By this limited standard,the Westboro Baptist Church is correct.

Off I go to the catechism…

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what Scripture is. It is the Creator of the Universe speaking to his creation in a language we can understand. It has power to convert, convict and to change lives. Tens of thousands of monks read and meditate upon the scriptures for two hours daily without anyone looking over their shoulder.

What the Westboro Baptist Church lacks but the monks have is the Magisterium of the Church which keeps us from falling into error. That is what the Maristerium is - guard rails to keep us from going off the road. Westboro has gone off the road but that doesn’t change the fundamental truth about what the written word of God is and can do.

Scripture has been translated, mistranslated, butchered, abused and subject to a thousand vicissitudes but that it is still able to do what it did when it was first written only shows it’s power, it’s divine origin.

And that is really the point. Scripture is of divine origin. It comes from God. It is the written word of God. It is God’s thoughts and ideas and teaching and communication with us. What can be better than that?

-Tim-

 

[DebChris]

As always it is Christ Crucified that we proclaim.
Fulton Sheen did an excellent job on one of his shows about the danger of putting an overemphasis on the written word, especially when evangelizing. Every religion has its own sacred text. In no way does that diminish the importance of the Bible. Our Faith is about more than knowledge of God. It is knowing God. Through the Sacraments, especially through the Eucharist, we receive Christ.
The Holy Spirit dwells within each one of us through the Sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation.
We do not proclaim a book. We proclaim the Risen Lord.

 

[po18guy]

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what Scripture is. It is the Creator of the Universe speaking to his creation in a language we can understand. It has power to convert, convict and to change lives. Tens of thousands of monks read and meditate upon the scriptures for two hours daily without anyone looking over their shoulder.

Understood! Yet, it has to be experienced for it to have any “power.” Otherwise, it is like the talent buried in the ground which yields no increase to God (Matthew 25:14-30). Yet, it cannot force itself into our hearts. It must be invited. I revere my bibles and nothing is placed atop them. Together with the Sacred Tradition and the guidance of the Magisterium, it is as close to heaven on earth as we will get, except for…

And that is really the point. Scripture is of divine origin. It comes from God. It is the written word of God. It is God’s thoughts and ideas and teaching and communication with us. What can be better than that? -Tim-

…the Holy Eucharist. It preceded the NT scripture. I can spend time with my bible (and I do), or I can spend time with Christ in the Eucharist. Miracles have occurred there. But, I do not go without at least a new testament.

We agree here - it is simply how to apply or describe what we agree on. Frankly, your (understandably) energetic view struck me as slightly too close to what I hear from our separated brothers and sisters - who reject the Eucharist.

 

[CrossofChrist]

Is it allowed to view the Bible as all-embracing of Christ, i.e the totality of the Word of God is found in Scripture, it just has to be “dug out” so to speak? Certainly it would be the product of Tradition handed on by Christ, but that would be I guess codified in Scripture. Tradition via Ecumenical Councils and whatnot would then shed light on the Bible. And this is not necessarily the Church knowing everything from Scripture alone since she “does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone.” (Dei Verbum 9) Some certainty could be derived from speculating on truths Tradition reveals in things like Ecumenical Councils.

If the Church venerates the Scriptures as she does the Lord’s Body, this view actually seems plausible.

That is, if you view Scripture as self-revealing only insofar as you read it as it is meant to be read; i.e with the eyes of Christ and therefore in union with the Church.

Here’s CCC 134 “All Sacred Scripture is but one book, and that one book is Christ, because all divine Scripture speaks of Christ, and all divine Scripture is fulfilled in Christ” (Hugh of St. Victor, De arca Noe 2, 8: PL 176, 642).

Obviously we can’t know something like the Church that was founded on Christ is based in Rome from Scripture alone. That would require Tradition. But that Tradition, or teaching, is in connection with Christ and with Scripture.

Thoughts?

 

[CrossofChrist]

I absolutely love the scriptures, but paper and ink is not living or breathing.

Scripture is living and breathing. Prayer is the context Scripture lives in and without it the Bible can’t be totally understood. Hence why the historical-critical method can’t be complete and will fail by itself.

See with Gregorian chant: youtube.com/user/vianinigiovanni

 

[DebChris]

“Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of God,” We learn about God when we read the Bible.
The Bible itself says that “All scripture is useful for instruction.” Again, as the more we read the Bible the more we learn about God. The Word is a “two edge sword.” If we take what we read to heart, it has the power to transform us.
This transforming action is not the action of the written word, but the transforming power of God, of the Holy Spirit within our hearts. So far none of this is contrary to what the Catholic Church teaches. The magisterium, sacred tradition, and the written word, each in their own way aid in the salvation of man. In all things, it must be remembered that the Bible itself is not God, but leads us to God,
When Jesus walked with the disciples on the road to Emmaus, He referenced the scriptures and how they pointed to Him. The disciples only recognized Jesus in the breaking of the bread, in the Eucharist because it is in the Eucharist that Jesus dwells. He also dwells in each of our hearts by the power of the Holy Spirit, This is the efficacious gift of grace given to us through the Sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation. As Catholics, we cannot separate Scripture and Tradition. The Word became flesh and walked among us. Emmanuel, God is with us, even now in each moment of our lives.
For those who have not been baptized, the Bible, as the written word of God, has the power to lead people to Christ, to recognize the risen Lord. Again, it is not simply the action of ink on paper but the transforming power of the Author Himself at work within the individual heart that makes it possible to see, that “opens the eyes of the blind.”

 

[DebChris]

“The mere literal knowledge of Scripture is not enough. Scripture is in fact and above all a means for knowing the power of the living God, who reveals himself in it, just as he revealed himself to Moses in the burning bush.”----St. John Paul II in Theology of the Body.

In other words, Scripture is one way, but not the only way in which we come to know God. St. John Paul II further talks about about the importance of “not stopping at the mere sound of the words, but go up also to the power of God revealed by these words.”

 

[CrossofChrist]

Obviously we can’t know something like the Church that was founded on Christ is based in Rome from Scripture alone. That would require Tradition. But that Tradition, or teaching, is in connection with Christ and with Scripture.

Thoughts?

I think maybe one way of looking at this is that all things are connected to Scripture, even if not everything is from Scripture alone. Because Scripture alone is something that really can’t exist; to fully get the most out of Scripture, you need Tradition and the Magisterium.

 

[Fr_of_Jazz]

I think maybe one way of looking at this is that all things are connected to Scripture, even if not everything is from Scripture alone. Because Scripture alone is something that really can’t exist; to fully get the most out of Scripture, you need Tradition and the Magisterium.

True, but don’t forget.

The Catholic (and EOC) view is that God’s word is handed on by the combined and interrelated process of Scripture and apostolic Tradition in the apostolic Church. The NT authors teach and practice this process as do the ECFs and the 7 Ecumenical Councils of the undivided church.

Scripture is in fact a product (under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit) of apostolic Tradition and the apostolic Church. The books of the NT were written by believers for believers, both of which were already in the Church and within its Tradition. They can only be read and interpreted correctly within their native hermeneutic environment, i.e., Tradition and Church.

Problems arise when one separates that unity and sets any one of the three over against the unity. E.g., setting Scripture alone over against the faith handed on by all three united.