Catholic Women Deacons—Why Not?

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Scott84 said:
Ever hear the saying “If you give a mouse a cookie”? Well he’s going to want a glass of milk.
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That would be no reason to deny something that is legitimate.

It is not in the capital “T” tradition of the Church for laypeople to preach within the context of the Mass. The historic instances of women functioning as deacons was when they baptized adult women. They did not preach homilies within the context of the Mass or dispense the sacraments to men.
 
niceatheist said:
Yeah, those pesky women, give 'em an inch and they take a mile.
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Women can not be priests but there are women who are hoping that this will be a step towards priesthood.
niceatheist said:
Thank goodness there are brave men around to put them in their place.
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When it comes to the Catholic church, there are roles that only men can fill. These are God given roles. No one is putting women in their place.

I, for one, am very grateful for these brave men in the Church.
 
When men receive Holy Orders, they make a vow of obedience. The Holy Father has already declared that women will never be priests. Thus, women who may be called to the diaconate would expect to be obedient to their bishop and the Bishop of Rome.

These arguments of, “Give em’ an inch and they’ll take a mile,” are frankly condescending and I think, relay an underlying fear of women. News flash, women already have leadership positions in the church. We are on the front line of child rearing and education. We are teachers, we are pastoral assistants, and we are mothers. This is true power. Many great priests I know, attribute their faith to their mothers. Holy Mary, pray for us.
 
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mrsdizzyd said:
I guess this is where questions arise for me. What would be the modern role of these deaconesses? It seems their ancient roles are obsolete today.
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The same as it was in the early church, and as it has remained in the Catholic and Orthodox churches in which they exist to this day: roughly the same as the non-sacramental service roles of Deacons. In the days of nude baptism, they also baptized adult females. They were not, and are not today, female deacons.
phil19034 said:
Yes, SOME Orthodox still have the deaconess OR have reinstated the deaconess,
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Some Eastern Catholic, as well.
twf said:
Heck, the Orthodox don’t even allow altar girls, or women to step foot in the sanctuary period.
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Nor are non-ordained men, generally, although in many (most? all?) men that could be ordained can fill the liturgical role of subdeacons (and the same for EC).

hawk
 
ziapueblo said:
I would hope that the deaconess would serve as they did in the ancient Church. There would definitely have to be solid teaching on this so that there is not some idea that the deaconess was a step toward the priesthood.

I know that the Greek Orthodox Church of Alexandria has recently looked into this as well. I wonder if the Coptic Orthodox Church as deaconesses?
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Patriarch Theodoros of Alexandria performs first consecration of deaconesses

There has been significant movement toward the ordination of women as deacons among the Orthodox. The Ecumenical Patriarch convened a theological consultation that approved the idea in 1989. In some places, this is understood as ordaining religious sisters to minister to the broader church. Moscow, 100 years ago, made a relative of the Romanovs a deaconess for her leadership in her monastery. Theodoros of Alexandria is experimenting in mission territory in subsaharan Africa. These efforts are exploring the questions being raised, without resolving the issue definitively.

Of course, there is also opposition among many Orthodox.
 
What is the role of the deaconess in these Churches? I’m assuming the traditional role of the ancient Church?

ZP
 
PetraG said:
It is not in the capital “T” tradition of the Church for laypeople to preach within the context of the Mass. The historic instances of women functioning as deacons was when they baptized adult women. They did not preach homilies within the context of the Mass or dispense the sacraments to men.
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Your first sentence states the core issue. Laypeople cannot preach, so this discussion is about whether women should be allowed to preach. (This is not something they can do now, so Fr Longnecker did not notice this issue.) With women acclaimed as Doctors of the Church, belonging to orders dedicated to preaching, teaching homiletics in seminaries and serving as teachers in most Catholic schools, it is easy to see why people are considering the idea.

The problem is the traditions we developed. The diaconate became a transitional order to the priesthood instead of a separate order. We are used to associating the diaconate with the priesthood as a result, perhaps too closely. That is something else that needs to be considered. One of the strngest arguments for ordaining women relies taking this issue to an abusurdity: if they can’t be ordained, why baptize them?

Pottier, one of theologians on the papal panel, has raised the issue of complementarity in an interesting way. Women among the clergy would affect, hopefully improve, the ministry of male deacons, priests and bishops. If there are things only women can do, male only clergy cannot fully express the divine ministry Christ entrusted to us. (My understanding without having had much time to consider the idea)
 
I consider myself a feminist, that is I believe in the fundamental equality of men and women. However, equality does not mean sameness, the way our bodies have been created by God shows there are differences despite us all being made “in the image and likeness of God”. A man cannot demand to give birth to a child just because we are all equal. I am not try to equate this with the priesthood and I do not consider myself massively conservative but just a straightforward Catholic.

All I know is that the churches introducing women priests lose membership, especially men. I want a united Church. Also when I was studying at a Catholic University for a MA degree where I was studying alongside women of other denominations (some time ago in the 1990s) the majority of the women wanting to be priests, whether Catholic or non-Catholic were angry and demanding these roles rather them emphasizing service, which gave me pause. This was however a very liberal Catholic university. The priesthood is clearly under attack from within it’s own ranks and from outside the church. I think we need to sharpen up the male priesthood with an emphasis on holiness before radically reforming Holy Orders by introducing women.

I also agree that we need to be focusing more on growing the role of the laity. Many Catholic parishes need more pastors and a focus on building disciples and fellowship, these are leadership roles that I believe could be open to men and women - perhaps a married couple even (although we may have the problem of funding their salaries). We can be forming new leaders for the church but they don’t need to be ordained.
 
dochawk said:
Some Eastern Catholic, as well.

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twf:
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There are Eastern Catholic Churches that ordain deaconesses?
 
Dovekin said:
The problem is the traditions we developed. The diaconate became a transitional order to the priesthood instead of a separate order.
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This is why everyone refers it to a slippery slope, because that is their lived experience concerning priests today. Many seem unable to differentiate the two orders, and not many people meet permanent deacons regularly.

In Australia, the permanent diaconate has been struggling for many years now—the process is long, and relatively new. The first aspirants for the Archdiocese of Melbourne were chosen in late 2007.

The Holy Spirit is always working among us. By separating the orders again, this may have paved the way forward for those who are not called to be priests. Many men are happily married, have children and like working in their chosen profession—and happen to be deacons as well. This could easily apply to women deacons as well. They wouldn’t be going rogue, there would be applicants and a process.

🌼

Ultimately we have to appreciate the discernment that is taking place from both sides of the argument. Clearly much thought is being put into the matter. If it comes back with a yes, then so be God’s will done, and the same applies for a no. We have to all digest, and accept the outcome.

If it’s a yes, I fear that many will not be able to submit to the Church as those who have wanted a yes, have done so for years. No woman, to my knowledge, has gone rogue on Sundays during a regular parish Mass. How many posts will we find here of those who then up and leave the Church? We already find them, and it hasn’t even been decided yet or a report released.
 
What most people miss is that the Catholic Church has women deacons/deaconesses. They are our religious sisters in the contemplative and apostolic orders!

The sisters are the ones mentioned in the NT who are virgins or widows and are spending the time in prayer or helping the poor, teaching, visit the lonely and sick etc.

The deacon´s wife is also mentioned as the deaconess in some of the early writers.

Go sisters!!!
 
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Where did I advocate ordaining women? I am merely pointing out that not doing so meets the definition of the word “sexism”. You can argue that practicing sexism on that issue is warranted, but it is still sexism.
 
dochawk said:
The same as it was in the early church, and as it has remained in the Catholic and Orthodox churches in which they exist to this day: roughly the same as the non-sacramental service roles of Deacons. In the days of nude baptism, they also baptized adult females. They were not, and are not today, female deacons.
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The video clip I posted of the Armenian liturgy shows the woman deacon doing more than what you describe here. She is at the altar with the other deacons, and she chants the gospel. One description I read says that the women deacons in the Armenian Church can do everything except touch the sacred species, and they are usually nuns who are allowed to serve outside of their monastery once ordained.

Is the Armenian Church unusually on this regard?

https://orthodoxdeaconess.org/conte...history-women-deacons-in-the-armenian-church/
 
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Scott84 said:
ordain women
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Women can’t be ordained anything. The church already knows this and Pope Francis has affirmed it. Female deacons, while a confusing name, are not ordained. Female deacons have existed before and the world didn’t explode.
 
Vico said:
It is interesting that the role of the deaconess was for baptism and doorman.
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Yes, very interesting. The baptismal ritual begins at the doors of the church where the catechumen is welcomed into the community. The deaconess must. Have been considered the doorkeeper, the one who allows access to the Sacraments and so to the Church. Think of St Peter at the gates of heaven, locking and unlocking the door; this must be how the deaconess was imagined.

This role was enhanced for women, where the baptism itself was conducted with her help. This administration of a sacrament, even though it was only with women, was a service to the whole church!

People take what they want from the facts. Do you want to take such a meager view of “minor orders”? Or do you want to see the great, awe inspiring mysteries of God revealed through the ministry of the Church? What expresses your faith best?
 
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