Catholic Women Deacons—Why Not?

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Please don’t lose faith. Many of us Catholics will follow the Magisterium no matter what. Trust Jesus that it will not fail.
 
kljihkugfhtgjhk said:
Right, and people who want women Priests will still be wrong, and the Pope will still be infallible so he will never allow women Priests. So really there’s no problem, however intense the argument gets. So why not have women Deacons?
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A better question is this: Why do it?
Laypeople are allowed to preach outside the context of the Mass. The opportunities and the means for doing that are greater than ever before. Why this pressure to have laypeople preaching at Mass instead of going out from the Mass and preaching the Gospel to the ends of the earth? Is that pressure not distracting laypersons from the mission field of preaching outside of the Mass, an opportunity that presents far fewer boundaries with regards to the subject, the length, the medium and the intended audience of the message?
 
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Who gives you the right to decide what is “manifest heresy?” Sure sounds a lot like Protestantism when we leave it up to individuals to decide what is heresy.
 
I find this statement condescending and offensive too. I have never had a deacon “mansplain” to me.
 
To this day, Carthusian nuns receive a stole from the bishop as part of their rite of profession. Scholars speculate that this may be a remnant of an ancient deaconess ordination rite.
 
ColorMomma said:
But The Church will not fail. Period.
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Absolutely not. It will not fail. That is true and Christ’s promise to us.
ColorMomma said:
Who gives you the right to decide what is “manifest heresy?” Sure sounds a lot like Protestantism when we leave it up to individuals to decide what is heresy.
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It is very important for us to study our faith, know Catholic teaching and doctrine, so if and when someone does speak something that goes against Catholic teaching we can make the decision not to follow it.

If a Catholic is preaching something against Catholic teaching, tradition, doctrines and dogma we should be able to know that it is a heresy.

That is not protestantism. Protestantism is denying or rejecting Catholic teaching, tradition, doctrines and dogma.
 
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We aren’t talking about a general conversation with another person or even another Cathoic, we are talking about the teaching authority of The Church. I will follow whatever is decided in regards to female deacons. I trust that it will not fall to heresy.
 
Yes, I completely agree. We absolutely follow the authority of the Church as long as those in authority, such as bishops and priests, do not do things that are not in line with what the Church has already spoken authoritatively, such as ordain female priests, which is what the post was referring to.

I definitely wouldn’t leave either. Stay and pray.

God bless. 🙂
 
“Instead of patriarchal evil, the reason for the disappearance of women deacons may also be put to the Spirit-led development within the Church. In other words, women deacons may have disappeared because they are not really part of God’s plan for the Church.”

Fr. Dwight Longenecker
 
I think if these hypotheticals were to happen, the resulting schism would be the most massive ever and one of the results would be a smaller, highly orthodox Roman Catholic Church, existing alongside a perhaps larger, heterodox church still calling itself Roman Catholic.
 
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twf said:
There are Eastern Catholic Churches that ordain deaconesses?
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There is at least one that has deaconesses, but I forgot which. You could search the byzcath.org forums.

Do to the implications of the word “ordain” I would not use it for this discussion. There is indeed a ritual, though.
mrsdizzyd said:
The video clip I posted of the Armenian liturgy shows the woman deacon doing more than what you describe here. She is at the altar with the other deacons, and she chants the gospel.
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I’m surprised (deeply) by the Gospel, but entry into the Holy Place by deaconesses, at least for the Eucharist, is certainly a known exception.

(but do be careful of relying on clips, as they can be of an “offshoot” group or some such).
mrsdizzyd said:
The professor who served on the commission and spoke on the panel at fordham said that in the west until the 12 th century women were ordained using a nearly identical rite to the one used for men that included the laying on of hands by the bishop, the receipt of the stole, and use of the same prayer used for the deacons.
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I don’t know about western practice (other than the bare facts that it used to have deaconesses), but at least today, some churches ordain with, and some without, the laying of hands. The ceremonies are quite similar, and clearly derivative of, diaconal ordination.

hawk
 
I didn’t get any hits. I can’t imagine that any Church in communion with Rome is officially instituting deaconesses at this time. It’s such a charged issue that it would create ripples in Rome and be newsworthy - even if a “small” Eastern Catholic Church. I could imagine that some Orthodox deaconesses have been received into an Eastern Catholic jurisdiction…

Regarding the rite resembling the ordination of deacons… that by itself isn’t surprising. Even in the Roman Rite, the blessing of an abbess is said to resemble episcopal consecration, while the consecration of a virgin resembles priestly ordination in some ways.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, Carthusian nuns receive a stole from the bishop to this day. This is unique to their order and is thought to be a remnant of the ancient rite of instituting of deaconesses.
 
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Dovekin said:
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GIRM (on the USCCB wesite) gives the current duties of what was the minor orders, the Acolyte and Lector:
http://www.usccb.org/prayer-and-wor...uction-of-the-roman-missal/girm-chapter-3.cfm
The Ministry of the Instituted Acolyte and Lector

98. The acolyte is instituted for service at the altar and to assist the Priest and Deacon. It is his place principally to prepare the altar and the sacred vessels and, if necessary, to distribute the Eucharist to the faithful as an extraordinary minister.[83]

In the ministry of the altar, the acolyte has his own proper functions (cf. nos. 187-193), which he must carry out in person.

99. The lector is instituted to proclaim the readings from Sacred Scripture, with the exception of the Gospel. He may also announce the intentions for the Universal Prayer and, in the absence of a psalmist, recite the Psalm between the readings.

In the celebration of the Eucharist, the lector has his own proper function (cf. nos. 194-198), which he himself must carry out.
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Per the Moto Proprio Ministeria Quaedam of Saint. Pope Paul VI of 1972, effective 1973:
7. In accordance with the ancient tradition of the Church, institution to the ministries of reader and acolyte is reserved to men.
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http://www.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/p6minors.htm
 
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PetraG said:
Let us consider your example of women who are Doctors of the Church.
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A little background. The 1967 New Catholic Encyclopedia, sv doctors of the Church, speculates that women would never be named as Doctors of the Church, because they could not be ordained. Two years later, Paul VI named St Catherine of Siena and then St Teresa of Avila as Doctors of the Church. The speculation in 1967 was reasonable, but wrong.

As to the rst of you comment, it is a jumble of correct and incorrect info. St Catherine of Siena was not a Carmelite, but a Dominican, a member of the Order of Preachers to use their official name. She was not cloistered like the Carmelites or Benedictines, but a member of a group more like a 3rd order. When she saw a situation that called for her to act, she wrote to the Pope demanding he move back to Rome. I do not see how that fits into the strictures of reticence and external direction that you propose.

My point is not that women should be ordained, or allowed to preach, but that there are legitimate motions within the Church that ask us to reflect on women and preaching. Women as Doctors, as members of the order of preachers, as professors of homiletics, etc These are not motivated by anything by anything but a desire to serve the Church, but they present us with instances of women involved in ministries that are clerical, not lay. They are important to consider instead of pretending, like Fr Longenecker, that all ministry by women is lay ministry. It seems like that should be the case, but it is not.
 
PetraG said:
The diaconate, as described in Acts, had nothing whatsoever to do with assisting at the Holy Mass, but with taking on practical cares that had grown to distract bishops from work particular to their state in life.
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Now read the rest of the chapter:
Now Stephen, filled with grace and power, was working great wonders and signs among the people. Certain members of the so-called Synagogue of Freedmen, Cyrenians, and Alexandrians, and people from Cilicia and Asia, came forward and debated with Stephen, but they could not withstand the wisdom and the spirit with which he spoke. Then they instigated some men to say, “We have heard him speaking blasphemous words against Moses and God.” They stirred up the people, the elders, and the scribes, accosted him, seized him, and brought him before the Sanhedrin. They presented false witnesses who testified, “This man never stops saying things against [this] holy place and the law. For we have heard him claim that this Jesus the Nazorean will destroy this place and change the customs that Moses handed down to us.” Acts 6:8-14
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The diaconate, as portrayed in the actions of St Stephen in Acts, was all about preaching and presenting a vision of God active in our lives. If he ever did anything like attending to practical cares of the needy, we never hear about it. All we hear is that he never stopped speaking about Jesus and the change he brings to religious customs.
 
PetraG said:
Note that I made a point to say that laypeople cannot preach within the context of the Mass.
There is nothing that prevents laypeople from preaching in other contexts.
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Noted. That is what I meant as well by preaching, more or less. Preaching as an act of teaching the Church to know and understand the Word.
PetraG said:
I hope that word is “strangest” and not “strongest,”
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Forgive me for not explaining this better.
One argument offered here is the “slippery slope” from ordaining women as deacons to ordaining them as priests. The extension of that is the slippery slope from baptizing women to ordaining them as priests. The point is that baptism is closer to priesthood than the diaconate is, and if we let women exercise the priesthood given to them in baptism, there is no reason to keep them from exercising the ministerial priesthood.
For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free person, there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:27-28
 
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