Catholic Women Deacons—Why Not?

[mrsdizzyd]

The professor who served on the commission and spoke on the panel at fordham said that in the west until the 12 th century women were ordained using a nearly identical rite to the one used for men that included the laying on of hands by the bishop, the receipt of the stole, and use of the same prayer used for the deacons.

She was adamant that they were ordain just as male deacons. However, she was also adamant that the diaconate and the priesthood were two completely separate tracks until the 12th century. So, it was never a question of women becoming priests until the diaconate was transformed in the 12th century to become a step to the priesthood.

She also said that their role was quite a bit more expansive than what is thought popularly. She said that they fulfilled any role of the deacon or priest that involved touching female bodies. This includes things like anointing the head with oil because it was considered improper for the priest to even touch the forehead of a women to anoint her. She also suggested that before the 12th century even male deacon played little to no liturgical role, so it should be surprising that the same was true for the females. She also said that it is an anachronism to use that fact as the basis for saying that women were actual deacons before the 12th century.

This professor’s main research area is women in the diaconate. She says that her summary is backed up by archive research and that there are archival documents across Europe outlining the rituals used to ordain women and their roles.

I think it’s all very fascinating.

If anyone want to hear her talk, there is a link to the archived livestream in the article linked by the OP.

 

[ChristMyLife]

you ordain women to be deacons you are opening a backdoor for them to enter the priesthood. People will say “look women are now ordained as deacons, why not priests?” And then the battle to ordain women as priests will get a lot more intense.

Exactly.

The Church will face 10 times more pressure than ever before if she ordains women.

Think the heat is bad now with the sex scandal? That’s NOTHING compared to what women deacons will cause.

Make no mistake: the people pushing for women deacons aren’t doing it out of a humble desire to serve the Church. They are doing it out of ambition for power.

 

[elohimrules]

I think there were women leaders in the new testament. So i dont see why there are not in the church today. Rome seems like a good ole boys club to me

 

[mrsdizzyd]

Women deacons would be the end of the Roman Church.

If having women deacons did not destroy the church before, I’m unclear how they would destroy the church now.

 

[Gorgias]

Has the report been made available?

I keep meaning to listen to this interview from America Magazine: What will Pope Francis do with research on women deacons? | America Magazine

 

[chessnerd321]

I don’t have time to read the article today. However I’m surprised to see that response from you. I always appreciate your posts defending Pope Francis when it comes to the whole dubia situation and others. You didn’t clearly state your opinion, so I could be misreading you. But the Holy Father has said “the door is closed” on women receiving Holy Orders, he did not restrict his statement to just the priesthood.

Sorry if I misunderstood you, but I don’t understand how a defender of Pope Francis like yourself can feel that way.

 

[ColorMomma]

I don’t want to speak for Mrs. Dizzyd, but I know I am open to whatever the Magisterium decides. If they institute a kind of modified diaconate for women, fine. If not, fine. Of course Jesus is the head of our church and the gates of hell will not prevail.

I had a deacon tell me the church had not closed the door on female deacons. The door is definitely closed on a female priesthood, and I am fine with that.

I do wonder if more women were in the room when decisions were being made, if we could have avoided some of the bad decisions in the sex abuse crisis. I’m not saying everything would be perfect, but sometimes I think there is not the female perspective given when decisions are being made.

 

[ColorMomma]

If anything is threatening to destroy the church now, it is the sex abuse crisis. This crisis is undermining people’s trust in the all-male hierarchy of The Church.

 

[ColorMomma]

Women deacons would be the end of the Roman Church.

This statement shows no faith in the church. The people who lost faith and left after Vatican II are now in schism. As faithful Catholics, we should follow the Magisterium, no matter what.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

But the Holy Father has said “the door is closed” on women receiving Holy Orders, he did not restrict his statement to just the priesthood.

I don’t know what the Holy Father will decide. He has made clear that women cannot be priests. He hasn’t said anything one way or another about women being deacons. That is why he called a commission to investigate the matter.

I don’t have a position on whether or not women should be made deacons.

Sorry if I misunderstood you, but I don’t understand how a defender of Pope Francis like yourself can feel that way.

The only thing I said in that post about how I feel is that I thought the whole thing was fascinating. I was summarizing a talk given by Professor Zagano.

 

[jack63]

All I know is that the churches introducing women priests lose membership, especially men. I want a united Church. Also when I was studying at a Catholic University for a MA degree where I was studying alongside women of other denominations (some time ago in the 1990s) the majority of the women wanting to be priests, whether Catholic or non-Catholic were angry and demanding these roles rather them emphasizing service, which gave me pause. This was however a very liberal Catholic university. The priesthood is clearly under attack from within it’s own ranks and from outside the church. I think we need to sharpen up the male priesthood with an emphasis on holiness before radically reforming Holy Orders by introducing women.

Personally, I believe there is historical and scriptural evidence for woman to be ordained as deacons, and in a perfect world and church, they would have quite a lot to add. However, my concerns echo what joyfulandactive said that I quoted above.

Yes improve the holiness of the male priesthood first, and prepare the way so that woman deacons can add in a positive way. I would not want woman deacons simply to be ordained to take on the most onerous clerical roles that men don’t want. This would be discouraging to everybody involved.

From one of my favorite books (and Pope Francis too…Brothers Karamazov…page 585 in my copy)

Reforms, when the ground has not been prepared for them, especially if they are institutions copied from abroad, do nothing but mischief!

 

[ChristMyLife]

As faithful Catholics, we should follow the Magisterium, no matter what.

Unless the Magisterium falls to manifest heresy.

Would you remain faithful if the Magisterium started ordaining female priests or blessing gay marriage?

Personally, if the Roman Church were to fall to manifest heresy like that I would become Eastern Orthodox.

 

[goout]

niceatheist:

Yeah, those pesky women, give 'em an inch and they take a mile.

Women can not be priests but there are women who are hoping that this will be a step towards priesthood.

Thank goodness there are brave men around to put them in their place.

When it comes to the Catholic church, there are roles that only men can fill. These are God given roles. No one is putting women in their place.

I, for one, am very grateful for these brave men in the Church.

It’s not that women can’t be priests, they are not priests.
It makes a difference. One implies that power is denied by arbitrary authority, the other recognizes who someone objectively is (and we all know that is way out of fashion in our time).

It’s like saying I can’t be a seven foot chinese pro basketball player. Well, I am objectively not that.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

Christ said the gates of hell would not prevail. Why so little faith?

This boggles my mind. If Catholics think the Holy Spirit will not preserve the church, I wonder if my conversion to Catholicism is even worth it. The authority Christ gave the church and the role the Holy Spirit plays in preserving the church are the basis for my conversion!

 

[PetraG]

Your first sentence states the core issue. Laypeople cannot preach, so this discussion is about whether women should be allowed to preach.

Note that I made a point to say that laypeople cannot preach within the context of the Mass.
There is nothing that prevents laypeople from preaching in other contexts.

One of the strngest arguments for ordaining women relies taking this issue to an abusurdity: if they can’t be ordained, why baptize them?

I hope that word is “strangest” and not “strongest,” because I have no idea what is meant by ineligibility for ordination making baptism an absurdity. What on earth is that about? There is nothing at all absurd about the idea that most of the faithful aren’t ever going to be priests. It would be absurd to suppose that every Christian ought to feel some need to be a teacher of others!

And he gave some as apostles, others as prophets, others as evangelists, others as pastors and teachers, to equip the holy ones for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of faith and knowledge of the Son of God, to mature adulthood, to the extent of the full stature of Christ, so that we may no longer be infants, tossed by waves and swept along by every wind of teaching arising from human trickery, from their cunning in the interests of deceitful scheming. Eph. 4:11-14

Now you are Christ’s body, and individually parts of it. Some people God has designated in the church to be, first, apostles; second, prophets; third, teachers; then, mighty deeds; then, gifts of healing, assistance, administration, and varieties of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work mighty deeds? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? Strive eagerly for the greatest spiritual gifts.
1 Cor. 12:27-31

And we know St. Paul goes on in the famous 13th chapter of the letter to describe the vocation that does belong to all: Faith, Hope and Charity.

 

[prayerrider]

In most Protestant denominations that take the step to “ordain” females, practicing homosexual clergy and same sex church “marriages” come right along behind. Who pushes the hardest for these things?

 

[PetraG]

With women acclaimed as Doctors of the Church, belonging to orders dedicated to preaching, teaching homiletics in seminaries and serving as teachers in most Catholic schools, it is easy to see why people are considering the idea…

Let us consider your example of women who are Doctors of the Church. Consider the wellspring from which they drew their understanding. They did not do it by seeking fewer boundaries, but by seeking more of them: that is, by embracing the evangelical counsels from within a community that made the radical choice to remain cloistered. Consider the four women who are Doctors of the Church: Hildegard of Bingen, Catherine of Siena, Teresa of Avila, Therese of Lisieux. Not a single one of them belonged to orders dedicated to preaching, teaching or homilectics. St. Hildegard was a Benedictine, and the other three were Carmelites. They wrote out of obedience or response to an immediate need, not because they sought any notoriety for themselves as theological authorities. (Indeed, I wonder if it may have been the freedom of knowing their writings could and would be suppressed if the writings were in error that freed these writers to say what was truly on their hearts, since I have seen invitations to their editors within their writings to do just that.) They were anxious not that whatever they wrote be published widely, but only that whatever was published be a faithful exposition of the truth. Note that this was obviously true obedience and humility, as these women were clearly capable of going to bat with courage when the situation called for it. Whether male or female, humility and openness to correction are marks of good and prudent theologians.

 

[ColorMomma]

I trust Jesus that the Magisterium will not fall to heresy. He said it wouldn’t.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

It’s not that women can’t be priests, they are not priests.

I understand what you are saying, women are not men and women can not be men, so women are not priests or can not fill the priestly role because only a male can do that.

I do think, though, we have to realize the authority given the Church by Christ and the Church is to be faithful to Him. I wouldn’t want to say there isn’t any authority or that it is an arbitrary authority.

Pope Francis said: “On the ordination of women in the Catholic Church, the last clear word was given by St. John Paul II, and this remains.”

 

[PetraG]

The problem is the traditions we developed. The diaconate became a transitional order to the priesthood instead of a separate order. We are used to associating the diaconate with the priesthood as a result, perhaps too closely.

We might be in agreement here, if by the diaconate you mean persons are solemnly entrusted with seeing to the material needs of the poor rather than someone who is ordained to assist at Holy Mass:

At that time, as the number of disciples continued to grow, the Hellenists complained against the Hebrews because their widows were being neglected in the daily distribution. So the Twelve called together the community of the disciples and said, “It is not right for us to neglect the word of God to serve at table. Brothers, select from among you seven reputable men, filled with the Spirit and wisdom, whom we shall appoint to this task, whereas we shall devote ourselves to prayer and to the ministry of the word.” Acts 6:1-4

The diaconate, as described in Acts, had nothing whatsoever to do with assisting at the Holy Mass, but with taking on practical cares that had grown to distract bishops from work particular to their state in life.