Catholic Worship of Mary

[itsjustdave1988]

The thread reminds me of the truth of these words from Archbishop Fulton Sheen:
"There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church—which is, of course, quite a different thing…

The hatred of the millions is directed against error and not against truth. As a matter of fact, if we Catholics believed all of the untruths and lies which were said against the Church, we would probably hate the Church a thousand times more than they do."

 

[mikeledes]

Psalm 139:21-22 states:

“Do I not hate, Lord, those who hate you? Those who rise against you, do I not loathe? With fierce hatred I hate them, enemies I count as my own?”

Jesus, according to Luke, also says to hate mother and father.

If I just use these verses, quoting them out of context, I could accuse Christianity of being contradictory and promoting hatred.

Psalm 58:11 describes the wicked as being “liars from the womb.”

Obviously, babies cannot lie.

The point of all this that a text taken out of context can seem outrageous or even against basic Christian principles. The texts cited as evidence of Mary worship are taken out of context and, like I said before, use poetic language (some of it a bit overdone) to express a point. Moreover, the theological opinion of a writer does not necessarily reflect the basic teachings and dogmas of the Catholic Church. In order to learn about Catholic teachings on Mary, you have to read the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

God Bless

 

[Ignatius]

PNRC:

I thought it prudent to show one of the Catholic errs in Marian worship.
These are authroatative quotes which prove that the Catholic Church worships Mary. Link removed as rabidly anti-Catholic

These include Papal encylicals which the Catholic Church claim are authoratative for church teachings.

Of course, you correctly understand and know better what we believe than we do. We all just don’t correctly understand our own encyclicals. It’s to you that we should go for correct interpretation of Catholic Doctrine. Thank you so much for coming here to enlighten all of us ignorant Catholics with your “authroatative” (your spelling) knowledge.

 

[LSK]

Singinbeauty:

I have to say… I almost spit out my milk at this string of statements… :bigyikes: I don’t know what lies underneath BUT this, on the surface, borders on worship. She is no where NEAR the same level or authority as God. Oh my goodness… It still has me cringing…

These are not lies…now, stop cringing. Jesus, the Word Incarnate, became man. In the Holy Scripture, one of the things He did was He became obedient to her…see the section of the Gospel where Joseph and Mary found Him in the temple. He asked his foster father, and the Blessed Mother where else they thought they would find Him, but then He went and made Himself obedient to them. So God, making Himself obedient to the will of man is not unusual nor is it not rooted in Scripture.

Jesus, Divine, refers throughout Holy Scripture to his mother as Woman…not woman…Woman…that is significant. It means she is to be regarded as the new Eve, the Ark of Covenant. He will always listen to her requests, always listen to her prayers. BUT, remember, she is the shining example of the PERFECT CHRISTIAN and in that perfection, she will NEVER not DO HIS WILL…therefore, she will NEVER make any request of Him that does not end with…if it be THY will…therefore…nothing asked by the Blessed Mother will be refused, and nothing granted by Our Lord will NOT be HIS WILL.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

PNRC:

I thought it prudent to show one of the Catholic errs in Marian worship.
These are authroatative quotes which prove that the Catholic Church worships Mary. Link removed as rabidly anti-Catholic

These include Papal encylicals which the Catholic Church claim are authoratative for church teachings.

Your “prudence” and concern is admirable, but misplaced. Catholics do not - and never have - worshiped Mary the Mother of God. Your sources are questionable at best, and could easily be characterized as slanderous.

 

[TobyLue]

From dictionary.com

Pantheism n.

1. 
   *]A doctrine identifying the Deity with the universe and its phenomena.
   *]Belief in and worship of all gods.

1. 
   pantheism
   

   n 1**: (rare) worship that admits or tolerates all gods** 2: the doctrine or belief that God is the universe and its phenomena (taken or conceived of as a whole) or the doctrine that regards the universe as a manifestation of God.

   Cheddarsox
   
   So since you claim that some Catholics crossed the line and given undue adoration to Mary and since you claim you are now pantheist it would seem to me that you would not object and maybe even welcome worship as god given to Mary.
   
   I think this was asked but I don’t see a reply from you. Give us some examples where Marian devotions crossed the line and constituted worship.
   
   BTW according to New Advent and other sources Pope Pius IX condemned pantheism. So you as a former devout practicing Catholic decided, on your own, that some forms of devotion to Mary crossed the line and constituted worship, which is against Catholic teaching. decided to switch to pantheism which is something that has been condemned by the Church…. Very interesting……

 

[LSK]

TobyLue:

From dictionary.com Cheddarsox

So since you claim that some Catholics crossed the line and given undue adoration to Mary and since you claim you are now pantheist it would seem to me that you would not object and maybe even welcome worship as god given to Mary.

I think this was asked but I don’t see a reply from you. Give us some examples where Marian devotions crossed the line and constituted worship.

BTW according to New Advent and other sources Pope Pius IX condemned pantheism. So you as a former devout practicing Catholic decided, on your own, that some forms of devotion to Mary crossed the line and constituted worship, which is against Catholic teaching. decided to switch to pantheism which is something that has been condemned by the Church…. Very interesting……

easy easy easy, my brother in Christ…I believe, that what your brother was saying was that some misguided Christians have in the past perhaps put undue emphasis on Our Blessed Mother rather than on Our Savior. However, the Holy Mother Church has never taught that she is more important than HE…for, without HIM there is no Church.

Let us all remember, we are here because we all love HIM…and try to teach each other - Let us not condem or say anything that would cause His mother to cry!

 

[deb1]

cheddarsox:

My concern is that the church teaches monotheism, and allows practices to go on that cross the line toward polytheism. It does the church no good, internally or externally to do so. It does not honor the Virgin Mother. It does not lead souls to Christ.

If you are not a Christian then why do you worry if a practice leads another to Christ? This seems odd. I do not care if Buddhists or Muslims are practicing their religions correctly because I do not belong to those relgions.

 

[LSK]

cheddarsox:

Deb, actually, I do sort of feel that way. I feel that the church gives the honor given to Mary a different name, when, for a tremendous number of believers, it actually amounts to worship. Then, when someone says "hmm, I’m concerned about that, it looks, feels and smells like worship. " everyone can say “on, don’t be silly, it’s hyperdulia!”

I think the church allows it to continue for the same reason Moses allowed the people to create a golden calf, to keep them happy. Many have such a deep devotion to Mary that to make any chastizing statements against such would create havock.

Because what the church says, goes. If the church tells people that pretty much no matter what they do in the way of Marian devotion is OK, then people will accept it.

While the church does teach that worship to Mary is wrong, on the other hand, the church also supports many devotions, and shares prayers and practices that are essentially indistinguishable from worship. I find that very confusing.

I found it confusing as a Catholic. I felt the church was playing word games with me. Telling me that worship was just hyperdulia, even though, in experience it was indistinguishable from latria, at least for me, and for many others I have spoken with.

And there was no way to discuss it, because when the subject arose, Marian types would go ballistic at the mere mention of the possibility that anyone placed Mary perhaps a bit higher than is appropriate.

I do not think that most Catholics worship Mary, nor that most Catholics are slower than chimpanzees, but I do think there is a real blind spot when it comes to Marian devotion and where the line between appropriate and inappropriate devotions is set.

I think people deny that Mary is worshipped because they don’t want to accept that something wrong is taking place. And the people who participate are misled people, not evil people. And the church has given them an out by creating a label which legitimizes their behavior.

These are concerns that came to me when I was a very devout and studious Catholic. They have nothing to do with an axe to grind etc. I do not hate the church, but this area concerns me greatly.

cheddar

I think you are mistaken…Moses did not allow a golden idol to be built, it was built by the people in defiance of God…Moses was angry at its creation.

The Holy Mother Church does not play word games…or mind games…but there are things that must be accepted on faith. And a mystery of faith, as accepted by the first century Catholics is a valid today as it was then. Mary, Mother of God, is a creature. She is a Perfect Christian, but she is a creature…not divine. And every true and faithful Catholic knows that…just as we all know she is the new Eve, the Ark of the Covenant.

You are still a Catholic and you are here because you cannot leave…not completely…someday you will come home and sit at the banquet…until then, just keep praying that the Holy Spirit will enlighten your mind and relieve your burdenned heart!

 

[TobyLue]

LSK

easy easy easy, my brother in Christ…I believe, that what your brother was saying was that some misguided Christians have in the past perhaps put undue emphasis on Our Blessed Mother rather than on Our Savior. However, the Holy Mother Church has never taught that she is more important than HE…for, without HIM there is no Church.

Let us all remember, we are here because we all love HIM…and try to teach each other - Let us not condem or say anything that would cause His mother to cry!

I was not trying to be uncharitable in any way. I was just commenting on his post nbr 75 which states in part

Deb, actually, I do sort of feel that way. I feel that the church gives the honor given to Mary a different name, when, for a tremendous number of believers, it actually amounts to worship. Then, when someone says "hmm, I’m concerned about that, it looks, feels and smells like worship. " everyone can say “on, don’t be silly, it’s hyperdulia!”

While the church does teach that worship to Mary is wrong, on the other hand, the church also supports many devotions, and shares prayers and practices that are essentially indistinguishable from worship. I find that very confusing.

I do not think that most Catholics worship Mary, nor that most Catholics are slower than chimpanzees, but I do think there is a real blind spot when it comes to Marian devotion and where the line between appropriate and inappropriate devotions is set.

These are concerns that came to me when I was a very devout and studious Catholic.

and nbr 86 which he says

……and because I too once was a Catholic, and was hurt and saddened by having to leave my faith of origin over such things.

I feel that one thing that makes Our Mother cry is people that leave the Church that her Son founded because of some misguided and misinformed opinion. I dont think in my post that I was passing judgment on cheddarsox. I for one, if found somethings that I thought were wrong, would have asked the priest or maybe even gone to the Bishop. I would never leave the Church because I “felt” something was wrong. I’m trying to find if praying the Rosary is wrong, singing the “Salve Regina” if that is wrong, pilgrimages to Fatima, Lourdes, Guadalupe are wrong, celebrating feasts to Our Lady if that is wrong, placing flowers before a statue of Mary, if that is wrong, etc.

 

[cheddarsox]

jaydog77:

Who says the way Mary is honored is wrong? You? Where are the Pantheist encyclicals condeming official Catholic doctrine? Furthermore, if you had any, on what authority do they (or you) speak? What are the punishments for “crossing the line”, what sources determine them? It sounds more like you are a protestant than anything else, in which case you probably need to update your profile.

I think I have made it clear that this is my feeling based on my experience. I have also made it clear that I recognize that if the church says it is OK, then it is (bound on earth, bound in heaven)

I am not claiming to speak with any great authority or threatening any punishment.

This practice drives people from the faith, this practice keeps people from the faith. It is repeatedly brought up by people as a stumbling block, by those in the church, those considering the church, and those observing the church from the outside. I think there is a valid concern in this area.

That is my opinion, you are not bound by it.

cheddar

 

[cheddarsox]

TobyLue:

From dictionary.com Cheddarsox

Sorry Toby, you chose the wrond definition! Bypassed one and went on to two. I do not worship all gods, just the one divine.

So since you claim that some Catholics crossed the line and given undue adoration to Mary and since you claim you are now pantheist it would seem to me that you would not object and maybe even welcome worship as god given to Mary.

I think this was asked but I don’t see a reply from you. Give us some examples where Marian devotions crossed the line and constituted worship.

On other threads I have offered examples. There are prayers of consecration, May crowing, an annual event at my church, and an astonishing set of superstitions are attributed to certain prayers and Marian sacramentals. Again, these are all improper devotions, in which people have twisted a good thing out of proportion.

BTW according to New Advent and other sources Pope Pius IX condemned pantheism. So you as a former devout practicing Catholic decided, on your own, that some forms of devotion to Mary crossed the line and constituted worship, which is against Catholic teaching. decided to switch to pantheism which is something that has been condemned by the Church…. Very interesting……
**
These concerns over certain types and extremes of Marian devotion came to me as a Catholic, as I was part of the church.

I am very aware that my present faith is condemed by the Catholic church. I make no claims to protection of the church nor do I hold any false idea of being in its good graces. But that is the subject of another thread.**

 

[cheddarsox]

deb1:

If you are not a Christian then why do you worry if a practice leads another to Christ? This seems odd. I do not care if Buddhists or Muslims are practicing their religions correctly because I do not belong to those relgions.

I care because the church was once my mother. Because it hurt to see such taking place. Because the church has great influence and a great ability to do good in this world and in people’s lives. Because many that I love are still part of the church.

I know that it is common for folks on this forum to assume that all non-Catholics are anti-Catholics, but it is not so. I have a great deal of respect for the church, and certainly for the divine.

I still have ties to the church. I guess that is why I care. And also, because I myself was hurt by these practices, so I have that personal interest. As a child, I was led to improper worship in the very church that promised to lead me in the truth. That hurt very much, and I would spare others such pain.

cheddar

 

[cheddarsox]

TobyLue:

LSK I was not trying to be uncharitable in any way. I was just commenting on his post nbr 75 which states in part

and nbr 86 which he says
I feel that one thing that makes Our Mother cry is people that leave the Church that her Son founded because of some misguided and misinformed opinion. I dont think in my post that I was passing judgment on cheddarsox. I for one, if found somethings that I thought were wrong, would have asked the priest or maybe even gone to the Bishop. I would never leave the Church because I “felt” something was wrong. I’m trying to find if praying the Rosary is wrong, singing the “Salve Regina” if that is wrong, pilgrimages to Fatima, Lourdes, Guadalupe are wrong, celebrating feasts to Our Lady if that is wrong, placing flowers before a statue of Mary, if that is wrong, etc.

Then it appears you understand my point. I think that Mary does cry over this. And I did try to speak about this. I mentioned in a previous post that priests and others laughed and nodded. They acknowledged it took place, thought it was an interesting part of Catholic culture and patted my shoulder patronizingly.

I was taught to take my faith and the faith of the church seriously, and when I did, I was told I was taking it too seriously. I was pursuing a religious vocation. And found no encouragment from those around me.

I did not leave the church on a whim. I left after years of prayer and frustration and hurt. I hope that the Blessed Virgin cried at least one tear, I cried many.

cheddar

 

[deb1]

cheddarsox:

I care because the church was once my mother. Because it hurt to see such taking place. Because the church has great influence and a great ability to do good in this world and in people’s lives. Because many that I love are still part of the church.

I know that it is common for folks on this forum to assume that all non-Catholics are anti-Catholics, but it is not so. I have a great deal of respect for the church, and certainly for the divine.

I still have ties to the church. I guess that is why I care. And also, because I myself was hurt by these practices, so I have that personal interest. As a child, I was led to improper worship in the very church that promised to lead me in the truth. That hurt very much, and I would spare others such pain.

cheddar

I just wanted to make certain that you understood that I didn’t think that you were anti anything. I do think that you are being a bit contradictory in your beliefs. The passion that you show toward what you consider Marian worship seems incongruous with a pantheiest belief system.

Perhaps you could be specific in what you deem Marian worship. What exactly bothered you. Just list one occurence and we can all discuss it.

 

[cheddarsox]

deb1:

Perhaps you could be specific in what you deem Marian worship. What exactly bothered you. Just list one occurence and we can all discuss it.

The first time I got that “this is so wrong” feeling was at my church’s May crowning event. A life sized statue of the Virgin was carried to the front of the church. A litany of the names and titles of the Virgin was read, songs were sung, a court of virgins approached the statue and threw themselves face down at its feet.They led the assemblage in this prayer catholic-forum.com/saints/pray0505.htm
Then one of the virgins crowned the statue amid song and tears from the assembledge.

If I saw anyone behave this way toward anything, ever, excepting the creator, I would consider it misplaced worship.

That is what it is called when people behave such toward rock stars, their lovers, their houses, cars etc. They have made an idol out of something. I feel that this type of ritual makes an idol out of Mary.

cheddar

 

[LSK]

First , let me apologize if I thought anyone was being uncharitable towards cheddarsox! It is so difficult to read a tone of voice! I should trust my brothers and sisters in Christ to be kind and loving towards anyone who is honestly searching…

Certainly, the scene you describe sounds disturbing, Cheddarsox. In fact, you have described a Church full of people who may be - dare I say it? - sinners!!! Yet what you must remember is that we have an obligation to be strong, JPII said that what is popular is seldom right and what is right is seldom popular, and so I think that rather than walk away from the Truth because you see only those who do not practice the Faith perfectly, it would be better to rededicate yourself to it, to begin to practice it as faithfully and as perfectly as YOU can, using your Blessed Mother as a wonderful example of the only PERFECT Christian ever created…and see if, perhaps, you can ADD to the Bride of Christ instead of detracting from her.

You are on the road home, my brother! Keep walking forward!

 

[Matthew_25]

Hello,

I am a “protestant” (not really protesting anything) but would probably become a Catholic if not for Mary and purgatory doctinres. I am something of a Christian contemplative and this generally is not embraced in protestant churches - though has a rich heritage in the Catholic Church.

What amazes me when I talk with Catholics about the role of Mary in the Catholic church is that everyone seems to have a DIFFERENT answer. Some say that she is simply a saint who serves as a kind of intercessor to Jesus and who is not to be worshipped or considered “God-like” in any way (I heard John Michael Talbot say this at a concert). Others, seem to believe that Mary is almost equal to God or is God-like and believe she should be worshipped as God.

Why so much disparity in belief on this subject? Why did the deceased Pope (who I respected and greatly admired) say he prayed to Mary when he was shot and not directly to Jesus?

 

[LSK]

Matthew 25:

Hello,

I am a “protestant” (not really protesting anything) but would probably become a Catholic if not for Mary and purgatory doctinres. I am something of a Christian contemplative and this generally is not embraced in protestant churches - though has a rich heritage in the Catholic Church.

What amazes me when I talk with Catholics about the role of Mary in the Catholic church is that everyone seems to have a DIFFERENT answer. Some say that she is simply a saint who serves as a kind of intercessor to Jesus and who is not to be worshipped or considered “God-like” in any way (I heard John Michael Talbot say this at a concert). Others, seem to believe that Mary is almost equal to God or is God-like and believe she should be worshipped as God.

Why so much disparity in belief on this subject? Why did the deceased Pope (who I respected and greatly admired) say he prayed to Mary when he was shot and not directly to Jesus?

This is just my opinion, Matt, but I think it is because there has been a poor catechisis in the Church during the late 1970’s and 1990’s that is just now being corrected…in some areas it is still very poor. EWTN and Mother Angelica, as well as websites like these, have done so much to educate non-Catholics and Catholics alike. Also, and I believe this is truly one of the reasons, people today in GENERAL are poorly educated when it comes to expressing themselves. Calling Mary ‘God-like’ is not wrong, as we are all called to try to be ‘perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect’ (Mt 5:48). And, of course, as a creature, Mary cannot be God, but she can certainly be God-*like, *just as you or I can try to be every day. Now, I fall short…very short…but Mary is the example of a perfect Christian, born without original sin, saved without having to go through what we have to go through because she was to be the New Eve, The Ark of the New Covenant, carrying our New High Priest, our Bread of Life, Our Word Incarnate…just as the old Ark of the Covenant carried the symbols of the priesthood, the bread of life and the law…so do not worry that Catholics don’t come up with exactly the same words…just rest assured that the Holy Mother Church teaches the Truth and keep your search going!

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Cheddar, I am concerned that you apostrophize a May crowning as some sort of idolatrous “rock star worship” event.

First, it is a FACT that Mary IS a Queen–the Queen of Heaven–The Queen Mother, if you will, spouse of the Holy Spirit, mother of the Son, daughter of the Father.

Acknowledging her status AS queen, is to honor the Son, the Spirit and the Father WHO MADE HER QUEEN.

Mary did not make herself queen. Mary is totally humble. But that does not mean that because she did not exalt herself, that WE should not then exalt her.

God himself tells us, 'Everyone who humbles himself shall be exalted".

In our love and feasts and crownings, in our rosaries, we carry out God’s will, for Mary said, “all generations shall call me blessed”==WHY? because HE WHO IS MIGHTY has done great things for me.

Mary is not a goddess. She is not a co-God.

She is our Mother (don’t we honor our parents according to the commandments?) She is our Queen, the Mother of our Savior (should we not rejoice at her fiat and her obedience to God which gained us our Messiah, Jesus Christ?)

Honor given to Mary could be compared to honor given to the departed Queen Mother Elizabeth of England. Nobody confused the Queen Mother with the ruling Queen. Nobody complained that cheering for the “Queen Mum” was somehow depriving Elizabeth II of her “rights”.

Do you really think that Jesus is so petty that he looks down at people who honor His Mother, His foster father Joseph, various saints (ever been to some patron saint festivals, like St. Anthony. . .or even St. Patrick’s day?). . .and says,
Oh mercy me. All these people should be concentrating on worshipping GOD only. All these attentions and loving thoughts are somehow crowding out WORSHIP–as though by loving Mary one CANNOT LOVE GOD AT THE SAME TIME??? As though Catholics cannot differentiate between the love and honor we have for a fellow creature who is the perfect Christian ideal, and the GOD whom we adore and worship as His creations?