Catholicism and Communism (Socialism?)

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Yes, with one difference.

The socialist ruling class may rule with impunity and drag the whole country down with them by force.

A private company, though, if it mistreats its customer base and employees (Hallmark comes to mind) will eventually falter when it loses consumer confidence. It cannot rule with impunity because eventually its cash flow will stop. The only way this does not happen is if it has a government to subsidize and bail it out regardless of how it operates, but this is not a normal market condition and is how government creates monopolies.
So,
In Socialism,
The “all-knowing mother company” is the government,
Which is not accountable to anyone.

It seems that in comparing Socialism with Catholicism:

Socialism:
  1. Seeks a temporary evil.
  2. In a command economy, with bailouts, seeks less freedom with less responsibility.
  3. Has no objective means to measure failure.
  4. Does not value life.
Catholicism:
  1. Seeks an eternal good.
  2. Encourages freedom with responsibility.
  3. Encourages confession of failure to improve.
  4. Seeks to protect life.
Am I missing any?
 
So,
In Socialism,
The “all-knowing mother company” is the government,
Which is not accountable to anyone.

It seems that in comparing Socialism with Catholicism:

Socialism:
  1. Seeks a temporary evil.
  2. In a command economy, with bailouts, seeks less freedom with less responsibility.
  3. Has no objective means to measure failure.
  4. Does not value life.
Catholicism:
  1. Seeks an eternal good.
  2. Encourages freedom with responsibility.
  3. Encourages confession of failure to improve.
  4. Seeks to protect life.
Am I missing any?
Therefore, war can be just.
 
I love large companies. I work for a branch of the largest trucking company in the world. I work for the best of the best. But it’s almost over. I’m a Teamster. I work for the best of the best. Our company has been in the top 3 profit/ dollar spent, of the the LTL industry for many years alot of times being #1 even though we are under the Teamster Freighthauler contract. We’ve beaten most non-union carriers in profits/dollar spent many times also. Just because you are in a large union doesn’t mean you can’t beat even lower paying non-union companies.
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 Why am I teling you this? On Friday my boss told me that our mother country(who has slowly been destroying us,as they have other companies in the past) has asked for a TARP bailout on wednesday or thursday last week. I am very sick right now. The company I work for was a family run business until a few years before I started working there.  They were the best of the best. There is alot of pride and alot of hard and thorough workers in my company. They used to have a good reputation for very few damages. I don't really want to type the name of my company because our guys search the internet day in and day out for news of the day things change, or news that it's all over.  The man who owned the company wanted to retire and his children didn't want the business so it was sold to Roadwy. Soon after Roadwy was bought by yellow. I work with guys who worked for every major teamster freight company in the Notheast going back a whole lot of years. You wouldn't believe the number of years experience that these guys have. They've seen them all fold and now we're down to 2 left. It's almost over now. The largest union in the world built by Jimmy Hoffa is as close to the end of it's rope as it can be. At least the huge teamster master freight contract is.

yellow bought the largest trucking company in China a couple of years ago. Maybe not even a couple of years ago. Since then the economy really went sour. In January the Teamsters asked us to vote for a 10% wage reduction over the next 4 years. This came very soon after we just signed our latest contract. I think it was just weeks after the company agreed to the new contract. So 40'000 or so voted and we agreed to the 10% pay cut.  A few weeks ago they offerred us property as collateral towards not being able to pay into our pension fund.  I don't here them offerring to sell the chinese company though. It's like we're buying it. I hear rumors that they are selling our companies terminals(which were already paid for ) and having us pay to rent them back. I just hope and pray that they sell us. We're to small to carry them although we have been their only constant profit maker. We only do the northeast.  I wish the gov't would step in and say they had to sell us because they are just chewing us up and spitting us out. It just seems so stupid that a company buys an awesome company and just uses it up until it dies. I've heard it happen to otherbusinesses too. It just seems so very vry wrong. My company doesn't need the bailout. The all-so-knowing mother company does. This is the stuff of the freemarket that really really disgusts me. And I am so very very sick right now. I'm sorry if it bugs anybody,but I had to get this off of my chest. I don't know if I'll be back for awhile. Thank you for listening. God Bless and goodnight.
I can sympathize with your distress—but there is NOTHING free-market about the ‘bailouts.’

It’s all about government stealing private enterprise. Pity that some companies wish to go along with their own destruction.
 
The Catholic Church teaches that,
Murder is always wrong,
And
War can be just,
Without contradiction.

How did Marx compare murder and war?

Did he use the same rationale in economics?

Did he follow any principles?
I hope no one was thinking I was advocating war.
I was pointing out different behavior can follow the same principle,
So it’s difficult to judge a person according to his behavior only.
 
So,
In Socialism,
The “all-knowing mother company” is the government,
Which is not accountable to anyone.

It seems that in comparing Socialism with Catholicism:

Socialism:
  1. Seeks a temporary evil.
  2. In a command economy, with bailouts, seeks less freedom with less responsibility.
  3. Has no objective means to measure failure.
  4. Does not value life.
Catholicism:
  1. Seeks an eternal good.
  2. Encourages freedom with responsibility.
  3. Encourages confession of failure to improve.
  4. Seeks to protect life.
Am I missing any?
Kind of a shame that the survival of the fittest profit before people capitalist state mentality wasn’t up for a good criticizing!!!😛
 
Kind of a shame that the survival of the fittest profit before people capitalist state mentality wasn’t up for a good criticizing!!!😛
I think this is a good point.

The remedy of course is Love (Charity).

But, as Catholics,
We can’t separate one Catholic principle from the rest.
 
So,
In Socialism,
The “all-knowing mother company” is the government,
Which is not accountable to anyone.

It seems that in comparing Socialism with Catholicism:

Socialism:
  1. Seeks a temporary evil.
  2. In a command economy, with bailouts, seeks less freedom with less responsibility.
  3. Has no objective means to measure failure.
  4. Does not value life.
Catholicism:
  1. Seeks an eternal good.
  2. Encourages freedom with responsibility.
  3. Encourages confession of failure to improve.
  4. Seeks to protect life.
Am I missing any?
A little simplistic, but, yes, your moving down the right road. 👍
 
Free market capitalism? When you find it let me know, because I cannot find it in the U.S. The economic system we have most resembles the fascist one. With all the damage government intervention is doing currently, can you therefore imagine how it would be under communism?!?:eek:
The U.S.A. surely is considered by most economists to be the closest thing on earth to a classic neo-liberal free market capitalist society, despite the recent government infusions and legislation into the freemarket.

Enchanted, by this measure can you name one country, out of all the countries in the world, that comes closest to having a free market system, or are you speaking about something utopian now for the timebeing. I’m trying to follow your reasoning, and though the hour is late, would welcome any further (name removed by moderator)ut as to how you would like the U.S. to proceed. Hayek, whom you cite an one worthy of respect, had problems with conservatism (see The Constitution of Liberty). Do you honestly believe the free market has vanished off the face of the earth, or am I somehow misreading you, which I probably am. 🙂
 
The U.S.A. surely is considered by most economists to be the closest thing on earth to a classic neo-liberal free market capitalist society, despite the recent government infusions and legislation into the freemarket.

Enchanted, by this measure can you name one country, out of all the countries in the world, that comes closest to having a free market system, or are you speaking about something utopian now for the timebeing. I’m trying to follow your reasoning, and though the hour is late, would welcome any further (name removed by moderator)ut as to how you would like the U.S. to proceed. Hayek, whom you cite an one worthy of respect, had problems with conservatism (see The Constitution of Liberty). Do you honestly believe the free market has vanished off the face of the earth, or am I somehow misreading you, which I probably am. 🙂
If the US economy is the closest thing to free market capitalism there is, then Mussolini’s Italy and Franco’s Spain equally merit the free market title, though they clearly do not. If by recent legislation you mean since 1865, than yes, you are correct.

No, I know of no country where the free market currently operates, or which can merit the title of such. The market is therefore “utopian” in the sense that this is a condition to which the USA may return, having once had the fundamentals of the system in place. So yes, to a certain degree the free market has indeed disappeared off the face of the earth, though vague pockets of it may exist in certain areas of commerce.

Hayek was correct, the conservative sentiment, of itself, is not sufficient unless grounded in certain principles and by itself is not an economic program. Otherwise the “mark” by which conservatism measures will always be moving. I do not believe I have here claimed to be conservative or claim it is our solution, unless I am wrong please correct me.

It is difficult to definitively state how the US government should proceed in its own devolution, since any move of this kind will have to be measured in revenue vs. debt, in order to minimize the pain of these changes in society. That being said, here a handful of suggestions, though I make no claim as to the order they should be done:

Abolish the income tax and repeal the 16th amendment, abolish the Federal Reserve System, Abolish the departments of Agriculture, Commerce, Energy, Education, Health & Human Services, Homeland Security, Housing and Urban Development, Interior, Labor, and Transportation, Repeal the Wagner Act, the Sherman Anti-Trust Act, Community Reinvestment Act, etc. Repeal NAFTA, CAFTA, GATT, withdraw from WTO, UN, NATO, Abolish the Overseas Private Investment Corporation, Cease all farm-aid bills, sell all Federal lands, Abolish NEA, FCA, ATF, SBA, SSS, TVA, NEH, EPA, OSHA, FSA, FAA privatize the US Postal Service, AMTRAK, & NASA, Abolish all federal boards and commissions, Abolish NSA, FBI, and CIA…

I could go on and on in this vein, but I think you have the idea;)

Any questions or clarifications and I am more than happy to oblige, and yes, there is more where this came from.
 
It is difficult to definitively state how the US government should proceed in its own devolution, since any move of this kind will have to be measured in revenue vs. debt, in order to minimize the pain of these changes in society. That being said, here a handful of suggestions, though I make no claim as to the order they should be done:

Abolish the income tax and repeal the 16th amendment, abolish the Federal Reserve System, Abolish the departments of Agriculture, Commerce, Energy, Education, Health & Human Services, Homeland Security, Housing and Urban Development, Interior, Labor, and Transportation, Repeal the Wagner Act, the Sherman Anti-Trust Act, Community Reinvestment Act, etc. Repeal NAFTA, CAFTA, GATT, withdraw from WTO, UN, NATO, Abolish the Overseas Private Investment Corporation, Cease all farm-aid bills, sell all Federal lands, Abolish NEA, FCA, ATF, SBA, SSS, TVA, NEH, EPA, OSHA, FSA, FAA privatize the US Postal Service, AMTRAK, & NASA, Abolish all federal boards and commissions, Abolish NSA, FBI, and CIA…

I could go on and on in this vein, but I think you have the idea;)

Any questions or clarifications and I am more than happy to oblige, and yes, there is more where this came from.
I think there are alot of reasons of why alot of the federal agencies and such,listed above exist. Not that I like the agencies nor even know what some of them are. But we have gone over some of it. Most of it pointing to man’s imperfections and sinful nature. If we didn’t have federal agencies to deal with the issues that they deal with,what would we do about them? I think we’d jam up the courts for the next 100 or more years. I think I heard India has some cases that won’t be dealt with in court until 100 or so years. The agencies deal with things in there own "courts so they don’t jam up the regular courts.
I also think alot of poorer people would be dealt with unfairly if the agencies didn't exist. They can't afford choice in lawyers. Their lawyers are appointed to them. Maybe,and probably alot of the agencies need a whole-heck-of-alotta work to be done to them and maybe some(and I definitely don't agree with NAFTA and such) need to be abolished, but I think the people of today are far from being catholic enough to exist without the agencies. As I stated in a previous post----regulations and laws exist because man can't find it in his heart to live in a civil way without them. I personally can't see us living without a department of labor. nor transportation. I don't really like the quality of work that's been done in our state by getting rid of state construction crews and such. Cheap isn't the safest or best answer if you ask me. Privitizing alot of state or federal jobs seems to involve as much corruption as not privitizing. But the quality seems to have diminished since alot of privitizing has occurred since alot of it started happening a few years back. I don't agree with a socialist government that everybody works for the state,but I do think that our system functions fine with some state workers. I much prefer a well taken care of state dump truck working on my roads than Joe Schmo's dented up pickup truck. I feel better if my state pays guys a decent salary to work for me than giving a job to the lowest bidder. I feel that if we want to consider this country great we have to pay to play. I feel that the cheapening of things is making things worse than it is better and by deregulating and getting rid of agencies we just open ourselves up to alot of abuses of people and potential abuses of people. The people need alot more fixing than the gov't right now. If the people are fixed--the gov't will fix itself because people work there. We as the catholic church have alot of work to do for that to happen. There is alot of corruption in our gov't but I think there would be alot without the agencies also. I don't like alot of agencies but I don't think we are in a morally stable enough state as a country to do without all of them. Alot of agencies probably exist do to abuses in the past and people supposedly had better morals back then. So I can imagine what it'd be like now.
 
If the US economy is the closest thing to free market capitalism there is, then Mussolini’s Italy and Franco’s Spain equally merit the free market title, though they clearly do not.
I humbly disagree. Mussolini’s Italy and Franco’s Spain were dictatorships, the U.S.A. was and is not. Milton Friedman, that disciple of Hayek, always stressed that economic and political freedom are interrelated. With political freedom, citizenry can act as a check on government assuming more economic powers and legislation to itself. Neither Mussolini’s Italy or Franco’s Spain had elections like us in the U.S. and our checks and balances so I believe you analogy is faulty IMHO. 🙂
 
Hayek was correct, the conservative sentiment, of itself, is not sufficient unless grounded in certain principles and by itself is not an economic program. Otherwise the “mark” by which conservatism measures will always be moving. I do not believe I have here claimed to be conservative or claim it is our solution, unless I am wrong please correct me.

It is difficult to definitively state how the US government should proceed in its own devolution, since any move of this kind will have to be measured in revenue vs. debt, in order to minimize the pain of these changes in society. That being said, here a handful of suggestions, though I make no claim as to the order they should be done:

Abolish the income tax and repeal the 16th amendment, abolish the Federal Reserve System, Abolish the departments of Agriculture, Commerce, Energy, Education, Health & Human Services, Homeland Security, Housing and Urban Development, Interior, Labor, and Transportation, Repeal the Wagner Act, the Sherman Anti-Trust Act, Community Reinvestment Act, etc. Repeal NAFTA, CAFTA, GATT, withdraw from WTO, UN, NATO, Abolish the Overseas Private Investment Corporation, Cease all farm-aid bills, sell all Federal lands, Abolish NEA, FCA, ATF, SBA, SSS, TVA, NEH, EPA, OSHA, FSA, FAA privatize the US Postal Service, AMTRAK, & NASA, Abolish all federal boards and commissions, Abolish NSA, FBI, and CIA…
Wow, that is quite radical: what you are proposing in withdrawing from NATO, the FBI, and CIA, is the de facto argument for American isolationism to a significant extent, and the withdrawal of all troops from Aghanistan and Iraq in all likelihood. I would have to wager this might put you at odds with some of the Catholic posters on American foreign policy. Do you believe the United States did the right thing with all the tax revenues it required in waging the Cold War and defeating the Soviet Union, or do you somehow believe the U.S. should not have fought the Cold War? Should the U.S. have attempted to win the cold war against an Evil Empire that basically had the West’s destruction as its goal by the U.S. forming NATO?

On morality, Hayek was not much of the religious person I believe and I note you are Catholic. Hayek would probably no doubt disapprove of the social conservatism found on this forum attempting to influence the government legislating on marriage, pornography, or abortion. Do you Enchanted Eve consider yourself a social conservative and do you not see a need for government to attempt to legislate in this sphere if it can along lines favorable to Catholics?

Hayek on Why I Am Not a Conservative: It is for this reason that to the liberal (European like Hayek) neither moral nor religious ideals are proper objects of coercion, while both conservatives and socialists recognize no such limits. I sometimes feel that the most conspicuous attribute of liberalism that distinguishes it as much from conservatism as from socialism is the view that moral beliefs concerning matters of conduct which do not directly interfere with the protected sphere of other persons do not justify coercion. Where would abortion fit into this? Not to be legislated either for or against?

Unlike Hayek, another freemarketeer, Adam Smith, devoted a great amount of time not just to the study of free markets but also to MORALITY in societies.

You are calling for the devolution of the American government for all intents and purposes, which is quite the radical step, would you not say?

On the Central Bank, take it or leave it, it has at least stabilized (or attempted to) the violent fluctuations in its business cycles and finance. Of course the FED can make incredible mistakes (like in the 1930s when it contracted the money supply way too quickly after the Stock Crash and prolonged the Depression). But at least there has not been a run on banks like that which used to occur here or in foreign countries. Most industrialized nations see the need for a Central Bank.

Sorry for all these questions, but I’m sure I’ll learn much from your answers. 🙂
 
Wow, a lot of great feedback here. I will attempt to respond to KyivAndrew first, and the human being. 🙂

With regards to foreign policy:

I am in no way an isolationist. I believe in active, positive engagement with other nations in cultural, religious, and trade matters. I do not believe a nation needs to be actively seeking to plunder and rampage in vain pursuit of imperial nation-building in order to be considered open to the world! Yes, we should withdraw from all fronts of occupation and bring our troops home where they belong, including from Iraq and Afghanistan. We should learn from our mother country, Great Britain, and realize these pursuits are in vain, and we cannot nor should we force the world to be remade in our image. Our patriotism calls us to love America for who she is, and not for the glorious, pompous image that some seem to want to make her into. As Chesterton stated in a famous rebuke of Rudyard Kipling, “He admires England, but he does not love her; for we admire things with reasons, but love them without reasons. He admires England because she is strong, not because she is English.” The same is true of our country. We should not love her because she is great, but because she is our mother.

No, I do not believe the Cold War was necessary, and I feel that it has in fact damaged our pursuit of liberty and cultural growth, since it emphasized a backward-looking jingoism and authoritarian attitude which persists today. As William F. Buckley stated “We should accept a totalitarian beuracracy within our shores,” in order to win the Cold war. This attitude was and is tragically common, and we have unfortunately become beholden to the idea that America must not be America in order to win. We should see that this is a self-defeating attitude and we shall instead become the very enemy we despise.

I accept the analysis of Mises and Rothbard regarding the Cold War, that the Soviet system, being an economic basketcase and inherently weak and unworkable, would have inevitably failed. It is only because we fueled its flames, with our foreign aid directly, and through the UN indirectly, as well as through our foreign policy, that we kept the Soviet Union alive long past its due date and it expired long after the foundation of its system had started to fade.

You may not have read any of my other posts, but consider myself a strong social conservative in the sense that I feel that only traditional morality can sustain a free society, and, as John Adams put it: “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” I agree with this sentiment 100% I feel what few legitimate regulations the government can put on moral conduct (as the Church says the State may, though not necessarily, excercise this power) should be limited to counties and municipalities, no level higher. The principal of subsidiarity, emphasized by the Popes, should apply here. Abortion should always and everywhere be illegal, and this goes without question since it is murder. Other regulations may be questionable. St. Thomas Aquinas tell us there are limits to what the State can do to curb vice, and I agree.

Yes, the devolution of the State has, because of long permitted abuses of government power and growth, become a radical move. But as the founder of the John Birch Society, Robert Welch, said, “It is realistic to be fantastic.” I also have inspiration from St. Paul: “What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?” (Romans 8:31). However, unless the State is curbed, it will become even more the Leviathan of dread, for even America is not immune to human avarice and greed. If we wait until the evil falls upon us, it is already too late.

Regarding the Federal Reserve, actually if you study the history of banking prior to 1913, you will find a much more stable and less violent system than we have today. Of course, like any marketplace bad things happened, but nowhere near what we have now and never was there a Great Depression before the Fed. I would say the analysis on post-Fed economics shows far less stability, greater rises and falls, and a horrible devaluation of the dollar (1910 dollar worth a nickel today). For a good, easy source of info on this, look at Antony Sutton’s book “Gold vs. Paper.” This is a true classic. It is too complex for me to explain central banking, it pitfalls, and commodity-based currency here, but I may in a future post if interested.

With regard to Italy and Spain, I meant to make these comparisons only in the economic sphere, not the overall system. Thankfully, if we act now, we can still stop ourselves from becoming a full-fledged version of these countries in those eras, since we do still have many of the freedoms you mention.

Thank you for your questions, that is what these forums are all about, sharing ideas! 👍😃
 
I think there are alot of reasons of why alot of the federal agencies and such,listed above exist. Not that I like the agencies nor even know what some of them are. But we have gone over some of it. Most of it pointing to man’s imperfections and sinful nature. If we didn’t have federal agencies to deal with the issues that they deal with,what would we do about them? I think we’d jam up the courts for the next 100 or more years. I think I heard India has some cases that won’t be dealt with in court until 100 or so years. The agencies deal with things in there own "courts so they don’t jam up the regular courts.
Actually, most of these agencies do nothing but fill offices and push paper around, by and large many of them contribute little or no positive action to the American economy. If agencies were created in respons to abuses, the punishment than has become disproportionate to the crime, and the innocent are being made to pay for it.

You are absolutely right about the people, however. The Catholic Church does need to get to work and inform our culture and our hearts about the freedom Truth brings, and only a virtuous heart can be truly free. Neverthless, keeping in mind the statements I made above, we cannot permit the State to fill the void the Church leaves behind, for as Pope Leo XIII warns we will become as “…the naturalists, as well as all who profess that they worship above all things the divinity of the State, and strive to disturb whole communities with such wicked doctrines, (and) cannot escape the charge of delusion.” (Arcanum, 1880)
We cannot worship God and mammon, and if we turn to the State rather than God to fulfill our material concerns, than we are and shall suffer the consequences.

Recall therefore the words of Our Lord:
"No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment? Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they? Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature? And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?
Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.

But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. (St. Matthew, 6:24-33)

This last part is of course, most important. Its the very foundation of our calling as Catholics. If we have this as our goal, all other things, material and otherwise, shall fall into the place, and we do not need the State to do that.

We must remember the State is run by human beings and is not protected by the Holy Ghost like the Church, so all that is bad in humanity spills out generously when it is granted the power it holds in the State.

And, as a final note, the majority of what I mentioned I opposed, not just because they do not work and are harmful, but because you will find them nowhere authorized by the Constitution, and the Constitution was never revised to permit them. Yet another nail in the coffin!

Sorry I did not respond to all points, but if there are any specific ones you would like me to respond to just ask me!

Again, thank you. These discussions help us to aid our understanding and learn from one another. All Christ’s peace to all! 🙂
 
Actually, most of these agencies do nothing but fill offices and push paper around, by and large many of them contribute little or no positive action to the American economy. If agencies were created in respons to abuses, the punishment than has become disproportionate to the crime, and the innocent are being made to pay for it. I have spoken a bit about trucking and such before so I will relate this. Trucking was deregulated somewhere around 1990. I wish it never was. It was another gov’t invlvement to 'cheapen" things and bust unions. IMO. Great for consumers not for truckers. The DOT was also expanded do to this. Today there are DOT checks by the feds county state and local police…All being paid by tax dollars…and when the locals have them there are about 30 police wrking them. So tax dollars aren’t being saved by deregulating. And prices to the consumer won’t cheapen much either due to them ‘wanting’ to fine truckers to fund at least the day and make it pay for the town. I don’t think the roads are safer due to deregulation. It has de-unionised an indusry through gov’t involvement allowing anybody to haul anything anywhere, and in my opinion alot of laws are being broken as a result and alot of drivers are being mistreated and being paid unfairly. It has opened up the whole over-the road trucking business which is not a business geared towards the common good of families,just profit. And that devil of a business is very hard to unionize which would lead to an industry policing itself because union drivers won’t drive unsafe trucks and if the truck breaks down they will be paid for their time as it is being fixed, as opposed to sitting on the side of the road for hours uncompensated.

You are absolutely right about the people, however. The Catholic Church does need to get to work and inform our culture and our hearts about the freedom Truth brings, and only a virtuous heart can be truly free. Neverthless, keeping in mind the statements I made above, we cannot permit the State to fill the void the Church leaves behind, for as Pope Leo XIII warns we will become as “…the naturalists, as well as all who profess that they worship above all things the divinity of the State, and strive to disturb whole communities with such wicked doctrines, (and) cannot escape the charge of delusion.” (Arcanum, 1880)
We cannot worship God and mammon, and if we turn to the State rather than God to fulfill our material concerns, than we are and shall suffer the consequences. I agree that we cannot worship God and mammon. And there is a large part of me that agrees with the second part but there alot of people on the conservative right which view the freemason ideals pruposed in our constitution as right, but Pope Leo and others warned against it and we live with alot of those ideals as normal. I don’t have an answer to the second part. I’m wary of our constitution because I’ve been reading abit on freemasonry and Pope Leo XIII. I don’t even know if Pope Leo would approve of our constitution in his encyclicals,it has freemasonry written all over it. But a large part of me sees it too radical to just remove alot of gov’t regs. because we’re not ready for it.

But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. (St. Matthew, 6:24-33) It is good that we are discussing things in a moral way but most of the world is not, as proven by the vatican’s perception of the problem mentioned in their April 1-09 summit (as mentioned they stated that the reason for the economic crisis is seeking profit over the common good and dignity of man),meaning that this would be a bad time to remove regs. on business especially.

This last part is of course, most important. Its the very foundation of our calling as Catholics. If we have this as our goal, all other things, material and otherwise, shall fall into the place, and we do not need the State to do that.I kind of look at alot like murder. If we remove homicide laws from the books,will homicide decrease. I doubt it. It is a good goal to strive towards but pulling all of the agencies would be very radical IMO.

We must remember the State is run by human beings and is not protected by the Holy Ghost like the Church, so all that is bad in humanity spills out generously when it is granted the power it holds in the State.
I think it would spill out just as badly, if not more if alot of regs and regulating agencies were removed. Because business and almighty dollar are also not protected by the Holy Ghost.
Sorry I typed something wrong here and alot of my responses got mixed with your original.
 
I think it would spill out just as badly, if not more if alot of regs and regulating agencies were removed. Because business and almighty dollar are also not protected by the Holy Ghost.
Code:
 Sorry I typed something wrong here and alot of my responses got mixed with your original.
I tried to fix my reply and did but it took more than 20 minutes so I contacted the forum admin. but I don’t know where it goes from there. Sorry I made such a mess of the post. But I know you know which are your and which are my thoughts.
 
I think it would spill out just as badly, if not more if alot of regs and regulating agencies were removed. Because business and almighty dollar are also not protected by the Holy Ghost.
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 Sorry I typed something wrong here and alot of my responses got mixed with your original.
Out of just random curiousity, what rules and regulations do these huge agencies implement that would reduce society to turmoil and chaos if we did not have them? Surely, our Founding Fathers, as intelligent as they were, would have foreseen at least some of the pitfalls that any of these agencies claim to rectify, and put them in the Constitution? Can most people say these agencies have such a positive effect on their life that they can name them off the top of their head? What does Commerce do? Labor? Interior? I am interested in your thoughts on this, because I frankly just see huge wastes of money, but you may have another point of view I have not considered.

Look forward to your response!
 
Out of just random curiousity, what rules and regulations do these huge agencies implement that would reduce society to turmoil and chaos if we did not have them? Surely, our Founding Fathers, as intelligent as they were, would have foreseen at least some of the pitfalls that any of these agencies claim to rectify, and put them in the Constitution? Can most people say these agencies have such a positive effect on their life that they can name them off the top of their head? What does Commerce do? Labor? Interior? I am interested in your thoughts on this, because I frankly just see huge wastes of money, but you may have another point of view I have not considered.

Look forward to your response!
I know you did not mention the Dept. of transportation here but did earlier. I tried maybe to answer to much earlier.

Trucking was deregulated sometime around 1990. Trucking safety and such is overseen by the dept. of trans.(DOT). Years ago the unions would have basically made sure their own trucks were safe and that the drivers were not working too many hours. But since deregulation there are more non-union and small independent carriers.(who cut corners as much as possible and oftentimes illegally to undercut competition. The DOT’s will oftentimes find non-union and independent carriers working too many hours unsafely and illegally. They also find alot of safety issues with their trucks. The public’s safety on the roadways should not be compromised for a small independent trucking company to make a buck and keep shipping prices down. The unions policed their own companies years ago and still do today. The small guys don’t police themselves very well so now we have DOT enforcement officers all over the Interstates, on state roads,. And the growing trend today is even municipalities and towns and boroughs are having large-scale DOT checks in there towns on trucks passing through. They even have local motor carrier enforcement vans in my area. They make alot of money fining the illegal truckers. The freedom for any Tom, Dick, or Harry to drive his truck and haul anywhere in the country has actually led to more gov’t. And IMO it is absolutely necessary, for the non-union companies don’t police themselves well at all. You can’t really win. Either support the unions and pay higher shipping costs or support the non-union and independent truckers and pay higher taxes for the insurance that our roadways are safe.
 
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