Catholicism and Communism (Socialism?)

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This is where I got my info that unions are to be supported by catholics and are not socialism. It is proof that the market is not perfect. I don’t know all of the facts of history,but I believe what was happening in the time of the encyclical was the beginings of some communist or socialist gov’ts. The unions(guilds were disbanded a few years prior. The market left to it’s own devices results in mass unfair treatment of laboreres. The rules were removed. The work rights gone. All wages left to the dog-eat-dog freemarket. The encyclical needed to be written to teach people(the workers and the business owners) how to treat each other because left to human nature and almighty dollar we fail on our own.(and I can see this happening today) The Church’s guidance is necaessary for the dignity of the worker. I don’t know all of the facts nor do I have time to seek them but I believe if the unions aren’t supported instead of being demonized we could be staring socialists revolts and communist revolts (meaning physical revolts) in the U.S. real soon.And no…I do not favor or desire this. I am an american, not a socialist,nor a communist.It seems that if you favor unions you are automatically considered unamerican or socialist but it is just the propagnda fed us for years and years now. Many union families fought wars for America. The Pope favored unions in that letter from the chair of Peter. Our capitalist system often times ovelooks things like that and automatically condems. It also states that the unions should have been watchful as to not be corrupted, but this has failed miserably at times.But it does not mean turn our backs on the working people. The unions insure a better chance for working people to have a better life for their families than the unchecked freemarket system. I don’t doubt that uneducated working families still make up the majority of the U.S. population. Supporting unions does not support socialim. It supports Americans and by so doing prevents the unchecked freemarket system from abusing workers,therefore preventing bloody revolutions in the streets. If the UAW ,which is one of the stronger remaing unions, weakens or falls, I feel we are even closer to socialist revolutions than by paying higher taxes for them to continue to exist. What I am trying to say is that if you fight and degrade the unions you put yourself even closer to violent social revolutions than if you support them.Even if it costs alot of tax money,it’s probably better for america and the world. The unions need alot of work but better they be fixed than disbanded or we will land right back to where we were when the encyclical was written. If you weaken the UAW, you weaken all unions, and you take all the workers of the world one step closer to feeling hopeless which may in turn lead to revolts.God Bless.
I am sorry, human being, but unless you can give me evidence that an unchecked free market has ever actually existed anywhere, than your defense of unions is ill-founded. Certainly, unions have an important role like the old guilds had, which is the point Pope Leo XIII was making. However, it was not a carte blanche endorsement of some of the ridiculous and despicable uneconomically sound demands and arguments unions often make. The list is endless, but think most of us are familiar. Perhaps if unions resembled the spirit and intent of the guilds, they would be more respectable. Until such time, their ad hominem condemnations of what accounts to the mythical purple unicorn we call unregulated capitalism that has not existed at least in this country in well over 200 years, if ever, their arguments are irrelevant and only add to the problems we have four-fold.
 
I am sorry, human being, but unless you can give me evidence that an unchecked free market has ever actually existed anywhere, than your defense of unions is ill-founded. Certainly, unions have an important role like the old guilds had, which is the point Pope Leo XIII was making. However, it was not a carte blanche endorsement of some of the ridiculous and despicable uneconomically sound demands and arguments unions often make. The list is endless, but think most of us are familiar. Perhaps if unions resembled the spirit and intent of the guilds, they would be more respectable. Until such time, their ad hominem condemnations of what accounts to the mythical purple unicorn we call unregulated capitalism that has not existed at least in this country in well over 200 years, if ever, their arguments are irrelevant and only add to the problems we have four-fold.
The vatican views this economic system as it is now to be flawed. I will link to a conference from the vatican april 1 2009 in a second. What it says is that the root of our crisis is the pursuit of profit over the pursuit of human dignity in the current economy. Is not the current economy freetrade more than ever before? The unions are the workers only defense. They are the major lobbyists for human dignity and decent wages and fair treatment in the workforce. Who else lobbies for the worker? Small businessmen? Corporations? Individuals? No…The most effective lobby for working people is the labor union. And by blaming the union (fourfold?) you blame the only group looking out for the worker. And the worker(someone who doesn’t own the business) is most probably always gonna be the majority. An attack on them which the right subscribes to is an attack on the people themselves. The UAW is at the top of the pyramid right now. When the world views that it is their fault that we have such a crisis and decides to attack and demonise them, they demonize a very strong group who fights for workers rights. therefore it weakens peoples belief in them. And people begin to see them as not necessary. People constantly hearing that the unions are bad leads people away from them. What will it lead to? Eventually it will lead to anti-unionism. And then it will lead to less and less unions. And then none. And then it will lead to the market deciding on all of the workers pay (which is where we were when the encyclical was written). The pay will become totally unfair and sickening to the point of workers not wanting the capitalist/freemarket system. And then it will lead to them looking towards anarchy, socialism,or communism. History has proven this.

The unions should be supported for a freemarket system to succeed. Not blamed for it’s failure or called communist, or socialist. The unions make capitalism work for the working people and it keeps them happy with the system. By ridding the country of unions I believe you pour gasoline on A fire your trying to put out.ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=94751 Here is the post from the vatican 04-01-09. It voices the concern of the pursuit of profit over the dignity of the worker and actually cites it as the reason for the crisis. The unions are the answer to that problem in my opinion.
I agree that the unions do need some work though. I believe it's very hard for some of them to back down now because they are in the world spotlight. And giving in to much may also leave the world with the impression of :what good are they anyway if they don't stand their ground. I highly doubt that the price of GM cars will come down even if they take a $20.00/hr. pay cut. As they are in the spotlight they do not just stand for themselves but all of the other union workers also. Personally I hold freetrade practices which were unfair as to the demise of GM than the union.
 
Rerum Novarum
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#3 In any case we clearly see, and on this there is general agreement, that some oppurtune remedy must be found quickly for the misery and wretchedness pressing so unjustly on the majority of the working class: FOR THE ANCIENT WORKINGMEN'S GUILDS WERE ABOLISHED IN THE LAST CENTURY, AND NO OTHER PROTECTIVE ORGANIZATION TOOK THEIR PLACE.  PUBLIC INSTITUTIONS AND THE LAWS SET ASIDE THE ANCIENT RELIGION.  HENCE BY DEGREES IT HAS COME TO PASS THAT WORKING MEN HAVE BEEN SURRENDERED,ISOLATED AND HELPLESS, TO THE HARDHEARTEDNESS OF EMPLOYERS AND THE GREED OF UNCHECKED COMPETITION.  The mischief has been increased by rapacious usury,which, although more than once condemned by the Church, is nevertheless, under a different guise, but with like injustice, still practiced by covetous and grasping men.  To this must be added that the hiring of labor and conduct of trade are concentrated into the hands of comparatively few; so that a small number of very rich men have been able to lay upon the teeming masses of the laboring poor a yoke  little better  than slavery itself.

#4 goes into how socialists prey upon these events.
 
The vatican views this economic system as it is now to be flawed.
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 I agree that the unions do need some work though. I believe it's very hard for some of them to back down now because they are in the world spotlight. And giving in to much may also leave the world with the impression of :what good are they anyway if they don't stand their ground.  I highly doubt that the price of GM cars will come down even if they take a $20.00/hr. pay cut. As they are in the spotlight they do not just stand for themselves but all of the other union workers also. Personally I hold freetrade practices which were unfair as to the demise of GM than the union.
Thank you for your detailed reply.

I will attempt to answer as much as I can with regard to your post.

The Vatican is correct, greed and envy cannot run any human society and it will ruin any economy over time. However, regulation of markets does not equate to virtue, and a free market does not equal greed.

Political rhetoric to the contrary, the US economy is not a free market, but rather resembles the fascist economy of Mussolini’s Italy both in content and style. I do not attack workers, and you may recall that Catholic teaching, from the same Pope Leo XIII, also calls us to not have class envy or tension. Workers have no special rights over other classes, and they must live according to their state in life, as the Church also teaches. The problem is Labor unions attack at branches and not roots of the problem.

As I have stated previously, labor unions claim the problem is low wages, no “good paying jobs”. Completely false. The problem is worthless money. They could make $1000 an hour and it would mean nothing if their money was worthless in buying power. Labor unions demand benefit increases even if taxpayers (public unions) or companies have to suffer. The ask for privliges such as being paid for various forms of time off or not working, or getting benefits which they have no right to demand, such as the ILWU in California demanding massages and boots at PMA expense, and for their families too! This is not fairness or dignity. Nowhere does Leo XIII say that these are necessities that need addressing. Now if companies have the money to pay for it and agree to, no biggie. But when a company is struggling and in some cases failing, and workers refuse concessions, this is selfish and in no way reflective of a Catholic attitude.

Now as I said, I feel unions have a role to play, and I never advocated abolishing them. I am advocating they take more of a cooperative and less combative attitude. This is not “us” vs. “them,” it is all of us working for a common good. The unions are no exception.

And again, I emphasize we are definitly not in a free market economy and we definitly have no “free trade.” Over 20,000 pages of regulations and state-defined priviliges, like GATT, NAFTA, CAFTA, etc. are not free trade. They are government assured foreign interference. We literally throw out the welcome mat for cheap goods to flood our market. Is the answer to this more intrusive government regulations? More of the same? No. Abolish NAFTA, CAFTA, GATT, repeal all tariffs and lift regulations and taxes binding down our companies at home. See my earlier post on this. If we did this for our companies, freed from burdens, would crush foreign competitors, as in days of yore.

History has proven nothing regarding the free market. In Pope Leo’s time there were indeed injustices suffered at all levels, but not ones the government can solve. Only a re-establishment of the Christian spirit will rectify this. Otherwise, if government interfers the economy as a whole will suffer to no man’s benefit, including union members. If life was as horrible as it is painted, why did people leave the farms in droves to work? I studied farm life in Sicily and some workers only worked 20 days a year at harvest and lived off of figs and monastic assistance. Unreal! A regular check, improving conditions, all of this occured despite government interference, and rather rapidly. Sure, it was not paradise, but the industrial economy was developing and still taking shape. Government rules and taxes have only ever impeded this process from growing to a more advanced stage. Things are a heck of a lot better then before and for that we can thank God.

You are right though, there is a heck of a lot more overhead involved than just the workers and paycuts alone will not save GM. I see this as the market punishing a company for not evolving and devoloping its product, which is stagnant in 1986 thinking, and that is why more nimble small companies are developing better products faster. If the government would stop impeding them for oil companies benefit, maybe we would be driving alternative fuel cars today. But if a company cannot compete, it must absolutely fail, GM no exception.

Thanks again for your response! 👍
 
This is where I got my info that unions are to be supported by catholics and are not socialism. It is proof that the market is not perfect.
I don’t need proof that a human endeavor is imperfect. All of them are. Where did you ever get the idea that the market should be perfect; and if it’s not, it should be jettisoned?

You appear to be arguing one thing and others here are arguing something else. No one that I can tell is arguing against maintaining worker dignity or the Church’s teaching. What most seem to be against is unreasonable government or union control, such as the example I posed in post #82. The situation in that example might not be socialist, but how would you characterize it?** <---- Please answer this question.**

There is a very good book by Dr. Thomas Sowell called A Conflict of Visions. He does not discuss socialism, communism, capitalism, or unions. What he observes are two dominant views of the world: the constrained vision and the unconstrained vision. People with a constrained vision recognize the world as imperfect and man as fallen and try to accomplish the doable; those of the unconstrained vision believe that man and his institutions can be perfected and seek the impossible dream.
 
Thank you for your detailed reply.

I will attempt to answer as much as I can with regard to your post.

The Vatican is correct, greed and envy cannot run any human society and it will ruin any economy over time. However, regulation of markets does not equate to virtue, and a free market does not equal greed.
Thank you for your response. I agree that capitalism is the beter system as opposed to communism and socialism. And,much to my surprise(as far as most of the discussions I have come across on this type of topic) I am in agreement on alot of your views. I am not a communist, socialist, or liberal (at least as far as abortion, traditional marriage, and unchecked free gov’t handouts goes on alot of programs). I was raised on union money in an area where alot of people were union and I am very grateful for the life it had given us as average uneducated working people. It gave us a good life. And I’ve seen it falling and being attacked daily for years and to me it seems very close to the end. So I defend it with as much as I can, because I can see, but rarely hear that anybody else sees the good that the unions can and have done for many people in capitalist society. And I also agree that the catholic spirit needs to be injected into the unions to weed out the corrupt and greediness which has been so very present.
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But back to the topic.  I believe that the market cannot go unregulated though. It may seem to be a good concept on paper but until Catholicism has taken wholeheartedly everyones soul we will need regulation. Even if the entire world were on fire with the Holy Spirit we would probably would still need regulation. For we are all sinners and will all fail at some times.
I believe regulations and laws exist because people cannot find it in their hearts to abide by natural/Divine law very easily. Until a time comes when the whole world (which is involved in this economic system) can treat people fairly and abide by God’s laws 100% we will need regulations. Just as we need laws on homicide, we need regulations on business and trade.
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There was a time when the American dollar was the most desired thing on the planet.  That was a time when we could have used it to our advantage to impose regulations on the countries with unfair labor practices and basic slave trade economic systems and communist systems, to convert to more Catholic/American principles on the treatment of people.  I see nothing wrong with requiring a country,such as China, to prove to us that they are treating their people humanely in the companies that desired our American dollar.  I see nothing wrong with worldwide inspections of manufactureres who compete for OUR dollar.  I see nothing wrong with our country investing money into our auto industry unless the whole wide world's auto industies are not allowed to invest in theirs (and some of GM's competitors countries do invest heavily into theirs). It is a huge part of our whole country's economy.Millions of jobs (not just GM's jobs) depend on it . And I almost see nothing wrong with our own military being used to protect our union members who may try to organize a factory which has fled our country.  Unions have recently tried to organisze in columbia and the members end up dead. There are people in Washington who push for trade with certain countries but they don't push for the allowance of our unions to go there safely to help the people be treated fairly or be paid fairly. (I see plenty of foreign clothing coming in from overseas, some of it very expensive yet their workers make "peanuts/day") I've seen the military used to almost protect counries that corporations have an interest in, so what would be so wrong defending a labor union while it organizes businesses in them countries.
 God knew we are sinners.That's why we have the church to guide and regulate us. Business and trade need regulation because sinners are involved in the process.  Even though we have the church to guide us our country still needs laws and punishments to make sure we follow them.  I'm sure their is corruption in the process but that seems to be everywhere even in the church itself.

I do agree with alot you said and will try to respond when I make time for it. Thank you for the very diplomatic response.
 
I don’t need proof that a human endeavor is imperfect. All of them are. Where did you ever get the idea that the market should be perfect; and if it’s not, it should be jettisoned?

You appear to be arguing one thing and others here are arguing something else. No one that I can tell is arguing against maintaining worker dignity or the Church’s teaching. What most seem to be against is unreasonable government or union control, such as the example I posed in post #82. The situation in that example might not be socialist, but how would you characterize it?** <---- Please answer this question.**

There is a very good book by Dr. Thomas Sowell called A Conflict of Visions. He does not discuss socialism, communism, capitalism, or unions. What he observes are two dominant views of the world: the constrained vision and the unconstrained vision. People with a constrained vision recognize the world as imperfect and man as fallen and try to accomplish the doable; those of the unconstrained vision believe that man and his institutions can be perfected and seek the impossible dream.
My argument is more towards the fact of why people seek socialism. And I am not a socialist. There must be reasons of why people seek it for it to exist at all. The reason people seek socialism is when capitalism fails them. The reason for the regulations is probably to help the capitalist system not to fail them. And as you stated, no system is perfect. Or human endeavor is imperfect, just as the present solutions may be imperfect. I don’t think the sytem is very resrained or else our jobs would not be leaving the country at such a rapid rate. It’s unrestraint that allows them to leave and go to countries with less than favorable labor laws. The guilds were abolished in the 1700,s and this left the freemarket to decide the treatment of workers. The freemarket failed them. They became mistreated and the result was a large number of people looking towards socialism as the “answer”. The church stepped in and came up with encyclical geared towards healing the class wars and condemning socialism and communism. Part of the answer to the problem was the support of labor unions, not the condemnation of them(as is seen today). There are also guidelines in the encyclical warning of the gaurding against corrupt leaders in the labor unions which also failed at times due to human imperfection. God and Catholisism were also to be included but are not now also a very large part.

Why do you think that people look to socialism as an ''answer"?
 
If her answer is correct, it did. Which leads to my point. In post # 66 you said:

In your mind, unions played no part in working-class jobs leaving this country. It’s all Reagan’s fault. If your garbage disposer broke and you called a plumber, and he said he could fix it, but first he had to get an electrician to disconnect the power, would you be willing to pay for plumber’s time waiting for the electrician, the electrician’s house call charge, plus the electrician’s time waiting for the plumber to finish so he could reconnect it? Of course you wouldn’t. But this is exactly what the auto unions expected of the auto manufacturers.
I understand that you feel that there are unneccessary requirements in union workplaces but most of them are not as bad a picture as you paint. Would a businessman call a plumber to do an electricians job? Some union guys do electrical work and some do plumbing. Some do painting,custodial, brakes, transmissions, bodywork, warehousing and whatever else and it probably works out best that way if you want the job done right as opposed to just cheaply.
 
If her answer is correct, it did. Which leads to my point. In post # 66 you said:

In your mind, unions played no part in working-class jobs leaving this country. It’s all Reagan’s fault.

He “let” them go? Sounds like you want a command economy. If that’s what you want, be prepared to have a politician tell you how much you can earn.

Socialism is a great idea. There is only one itsy-bitsy, teeny-weeny problem with it: no one has yet figured a way to pay for it.
This link will explain some of my feelings towards Reagan. It was very hurtful to all unions. But to most free trade supporters(at least the vocal ones ) it was OK for Reagan to step in and impose government rule on business and labor. It always seems to be OK when a certain party imposes their regulations and such on the economy. By Reagan stepping into that strike it weakened the unions and I have already experienced the kind of lack of workrules and decent pay and availability of union jobs as a result of his political command.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4ADBS_enUS317US318&q=Reagan+Northwest+airlines+strike The top story tells a bit of my thoughts.

I do believe I have also stated that the unions need work. The corruption needs to be weeded out and the greed. It would be nice if Catholic values could also be worked in(I feel that this would have the possibility of changing everything for the better).
 
I believe regulations and laws exist because people cannot find it in their hearts to abide by natural/Divine law very easily. Until a time comes when the whole world (which is involved in this economic system) can treat people fairly and abide by God’s laws 100% we will need regulations. Just as we need laws on homicide, we need regulations on business and trade.
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I do agree with alot you said and will try to respond when I make time for it. Thank you for the very diplomatic response.
I understand where you are coming from. My grandfather was president of ILWU, but even sometimes he thinks the unions have lost their way. My father belongs to the CA teacher’s union, and while it is not for me (I like the ides of achieving at my own merit, not because of the union, but I also realize this is not a value to everyone), I believe it plays an important role for workers who are not able to defend themselves. Not everyone (myself included!) can be a tough negotiator.

I do believe in limited regulations. Like most free market economists affirm, even in a free market the government would enforce laws against fraud, contract violations, theft, and murder, etc. This is where unions can be a positive for workers in a free market. Because most unions (if not all) operate on contracts, violations of this contract would be enforcable by government, unlike at-will workers who have limited rights. Therefore, unions help working men get assured wages as much as possible, ensuring social justice for families. The government need not a play a large role here. The use of government troops and policemen against unions in the last century was clearly wrong and unjust, and clearly not in the government’s power to do. Just as I do not believe the government should stop unions, so too should they not help. Working men united are strong. If the government gets more involved than this (minimum wages, workplace laws, etc.) than it only harms the economic well being of all, to fix what has proven to be exceptional situations. One-size-fits-all laws, and that is the only kind of law, necessarily harm the worker and all members of society, to their detriment.

That being said, I see way too many union leaders who are proud that they help substandard or flat out lousy workers keep their job. My father was the teacher union rep and had prided himself on helping an awful teacher, who did nothing but smoke at the classroom door, keep his job at taxpayer expense!!!:mad: This harms productivity and, in the long wrong, the company and his fellow workers.

The government should clearly NOT be enforcing laws for big corporations, but I guess since it is owned by them they must do their bosses’ will!

We all know the story: military adventures in Central America for United Fruit Co. shameful taking of Hawaii for Dole pineapple interests, Middle Eastern influences for oil interest, strong-arming China and Japan to artificially weaken their currencies, etc. Has not our military adventuring been making the world safe for big corporations? The example you give of the American dollar was a cogent one, because once upon a time not only were we able to improve local people’s live without government interference, we also helped feed the world with our excesses. Not enough space here to explain why that no longer is, but we did once do the things you say. The government did not do it, private investors did. They knew a happy, healthy population was better for long term growth. Now its all about making a quick buck.

Again, if the we released GM and the others from the onerous conditions we place on their shoulders, I have no doubt they would pull themselves together. But greater government investment, like they are trying now, and mark my words in 5 years they will be like MG and the other British junk cars of the nationalized era, and will still eventually fail. Nothing, not even endless cash, replaces consumer demand.

As for the jerks in Washington, it is silly to demand we trade with countries. If they want our goods we will sell, and if we want their’s we will buy. What a silly notion Washington has invented that we can aritificially “create demand” on a nation’s goods and services. Maybe if we stopped doing that there might be less exploitation by countries pressured to trade and perform!

Look forward to you post!
 
to equate Communism and Christianity is the worst insult ever on this site…'both being concerned about the well being of humanity" how horrible a statement…sure the murder of 100 million innocent souls last century by the communist conspiracy is no big deal…and in china alone…the lefts trading partner…they have murdered some 64 million by themselves…how utterly charming! The Cardinal Kung foundation and others are in constant contact with the courageous under-ground church in China and what these fellow followers of Christ are experiencing is awful…'smiliar in their concerns for humanity"…Tell that to Elians mom,she it was,who gave her life to escape from your paradise of Cuba ,to bring her son.>Elian…to America,the land of the free and brave…she drowned…her relatives rescued the boy…but later the cowardly father and communist party member,ordered the boy Elian to be returned to him…he was divorced from the boys mom and had married the party instead…and our born again pres…Clinton.ordered police to kidnap Elian from his relatives and at gunpoint, sent the little innocent boy back to the lovely communist paradise of Cuba and the embrace of Castro…your hero…so many enter this wonderful site with an agenda…not seeking truth but intent on destroying the last best hope of mankind. the United States of America.
:clapping:
 
You said you like to get pay for your work. Well, so do management and the stockholders, but they can’t unless they can pass all their costs on to the consumer, who wants to part with as little of his money as possible.
I personally think that the link I posted to the recent meeting at the vatican can somehow cover my point on stockholders. I don’t have to much problem with management because I feel that they are employees just as the laborers. I think that stockholders should not be into investing just for profit. Work is here for the dignity of the person and the common good of the people. I think that is the Church’s view. There are views in favor of and to the common good of all parties in the encyclical. I believe that stockholders and business owners should care more about the treatment of their workers than they care about profit. When it comes to a business going under it is a different story. How can a stockholder be held to being responsible for the treatment and working conditions of it’s employees? Regulation seems to be the only answer. We could also hope that the church would put some more effort into actually publicly making known their beliefs on this issue instead of one small summit and then walking away. It is a very important worldwide issue and needs some serious spreading for us to get anywhere though. Spreading through every parish in the world would help. The summit only involved world leaders and it seems that their only answer ever seems to be more regulations without the people actually being told of how to change their behaviors in order to not need regulations.

Maybe union members or non union workers need to be enlightened to the responsibilities in the capital and labor encyclical. Maybe stockholders and business owners need to be told publicly and regularly that if the workers are mistreated or unfairly paid that God holds them accountable for a sin that cries out to God for judgement. Maybe consumers need to be told that God may hold them accountable for purchasing products from companies that mistreat their employees. These are just a start of some ideas. But if the people do not respond ,what is left but regulation and regulation costs tax dollars.
 
I understand where you are coming from. My grandfather was president of ILWU, but even sometimes he thinks the unions have lost their way. My father belongs to the CA teacher’s union, and while it is not for me (I like the ides of achieving at my own merit, not because of the union, but I also realize this is not a value to everyone), I believe it plays an important role for workers who are not able to defend themselves. Not everyone (myself included!) can be a tough negotiator.

I do believe in limited regulations. Like most free market economists affirm, even in a free market the government would enforce laws against fraud, contract violations, theft, and murder, etc. This is where unions can be a positive for workers in a free market. Because most unions (if not all) operate on contracts, violations of this contract would be enforcable by government, unlike at-will workers who have limited rights. Therefore, unions help working men get assured wages as much as possible, ensuring social justice for families. The government need not a play a large role here. The use of government troops and policemen against unions in the last century was clearly wrong and unjust, and clearly not in the government’s power to do. Just as I do not believe the government should stop unions, so too should they not help. Working men united are strong. If the government gets more involved than this (minimum wages, workplace laws, etc.) than it only harms the economic well being of all, to fix what has proven to be exceptional situations. One-size-fits-all laws, and that is the only kind of law, necessarily harm the worker and all members of society, to their detriment.

That being said, I see way too many union leaders who are proud that they help substandard or flat out lousy workers keep their job. My father was the teacher union rep and had prided himself on helping an awful teacher, who did nothing but smoke at the classroom door, keep his job at taxpayer expense!!!:mad: This harms productivity and, in the long wrong, the company and his fellow workers.

The government should clearly NOT be enforcing laws for big corporations, but I guess since it is owned by them they must do their bosses’ will!

We all know the story: military adventures in Central America for United Fruit Co. shameful taking of Hawaii for Dole pineapple interests, Middle Eastern influences for oil interest, strong-arming China and Japan to artificially weaken their currencies, etc. Has not our military adventuring been making the world safe for big corporations? The example you give of the American dollar was a cogent one, because once upon a time not only were we able to improve local people’s live without government interference, we also helped feed the world with our excesses. Not enough space here to explain why that no longer is, but we did once do the things you say. The government did not do it, private investors did. They knew a happy, healthy population was better for long term growth. Now its all about making a quick buck.

Again, if the we released GM and the others from the onerous conditions we place on their shoulders, I have no doubt they would pull themselves together. But greater government investment, like they are trying now, and mark my words in 5 years they will be like MG and the other British junk cars of the nationalized era, and will still eventually fail. Nothing, not even endless cash, replaces consumer demand.

As for the jerks in Washington, it is silly to demand we trade with countries. If they want our goods we will sell, and if we want their’s we will buy. What a silly notion Washington has invented that we can aritificially “create demand” on a nation’s goods and services. Maybe if we stopped doing that there might be less exploitation by countries pressured to trade and perform!

Look forward to you post!
I definitly agree with most of what you say here which is amazing even to myself.
 
My argument is more towards the fact of why people seek socialism. And I am not a socialist. There must be reasons of why people seek it for it to exist at all. The reason people seek socialism is when capitalism fails them. The reason for the regulations is probably to help the capitalist system not to fail them. And as you stated, no system is perfect. Or human endeavor is imperfect, just as the present solutions may be imperfect. I don’t think the sytem is very resrained or else our jobs would not be leaving the country at such a rapid rate. It’s unrestraint that allows them to leave and go to countries with less than favorable labor laws. The guilds were abolished in the 1700,s and this left the freemarket to decide the treatment of workers. The freemarket failed them. They became mistreated and the result was a large number of people looking towards socialism as the “answer”. The church stepped in and came up with encyclical geared towards healing the class wars and condemning socialism and communism. Part of the answer to the problem was the support of labor unions, not the condemnation of them(as is seen today). There are also guidelines in the encyclical warning of the gaurding against corrupt leaders in the labor unions which also failed at times due to human imperfection. God and Catholisism were also to be included but are not now also a very large part.

Why do you think that people look to socialism as an ''answer"?
All people naturally seek Love.
Socialism is a false image of Love.

The amount of money a person has,
Is not the measure of their self-giving love,
Because,
Only God can judge a persons heart,
Not the state, nor anyone else.

Socialism judges a person’s heart,
By only physical and material means.

The Lie of Socialism
Is hidden within
Human limitation,
And the pride to assume knowledge beyond that limitation.
 
The summit only involved world leaders and it seems that their only answer ever seems to be more regulations without the people actually being told of how to change their behaviors in order to not need regulations.

Maybe union members or non union workers need to be enlightened to the responsibilities in the capital and labor encyclical. Maybe stockholders and business owners need to be told publicly and regularly that if the workers are mistreated or unfairly paid that God holds them accountable for a sin that cries out to God for judgement. Maybe consumers need to be told that God may hold them accountable for purchasing products from companies that mistreat their employees. These are just a start of some ideas. But if the people do not respond ,what is left but regulation and regulation costs tax dollars.
Amen, brother! 👍
 
All people naturally seek Love.
Socialism is a false image of Love.

The amount of money a person has,
Is not the measure of their self-giving love,
Because,
Only God can judge a persons heart,
Not the state, nor anyone else.

Socialism judges a person’s heart,
By only physical and material means.

The Lie of Socialism
Is hidden within
Human limitation,
And the pride to assume knowledge beyond that limitation.
Again, I say, Amen! 😃
 
It was the son of Theodore Roosevelt who revealed the anti-semitism of little Karl Marx…he wrote in college "on the Jewish question’ this hate term paper was to inspire fellow leftist Adolph Schikelgruber so that he used many sentences intact. The left has hated Archie R.since this exposure…it can be found on the internet search engine…Names of themselves mean very little…The king of France had on his right side the conservatives…fellow counts,dukes,princes, etc the establishment…on his left was a small number of liberals…those who were for individual freedom as opposed to the status quo…in fact look up ‘conservative’ in the diction…and that deft.still holds…so those of us who are anti-collectivist are the true classical liberals…on the right…those couch potatos are in the center while to the left are those who know better what is best for us…we the peasants…or as karl used to say, 'ya gotta luv the masses…drop the m…'then he would smirk. One can always leave the RCC but once one is a member of the establishemt one cannot leave without endangering ones life…read Chambers.Witness etc…all the best,it cant happen here…lets wave the flag and just tolerant all forms of behavior cept those not on the accepted approved list…
 
This link will explain some of my feelings towards Reagan. It was very hurtful to all unions. But to most free trade supporters(at least the vocal ones ) it was OK for Reagan to step in and impose government rule on business and labor. It always seems to be OK when a certain party imposes their regulations and such on the economy. By Reagan stepping into that strike it weakened the unions and I have already experienced the kind of lack of workrules and decent pay and availability of union jobs as a result of his political command.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4ADBS_enUS317US318&q=Reagan+Northwest+airlines+strike The top story tells a bit of my thoughts.

I do believe I have also stated that the unions need work. The corruption needs to be weeded out and the greed. It would be nice if Catholic values could also be worked in(I feel that this would have the possibility of changing everything for the better).
Another point on this Reagan issue which also relates to the topic of socialism today.
Code:
I suppose alot of the fear of socialism comes from the bailouts. Involved with this bailout issue is that the current president is some kind of socialist for "firing" the CEO of GM. Yet why do the same people who feel that Obama was a socialist for this yet find it that reagan was such a true blue american. He did fire 11,000 Air traffic controllers did he not. 

He did it for national security reasons I suppose.  But I feel that it is also a security reason to fix this present economy.
 
Another point on this Reagan issue which also relates to the topic of socialism today.
Code:
I suppose alot of the fear of socialism comes from the bailouts. Involved with this bailout issue is that the current president is some kind of socialist for "firing" the CEO of GM. Yet why do the same people who feel that Obama was a socialist for this yet find it that reagan was such a true blue american. He did fire 11,000 Air traffic controllers did he not. 

He did it for national security reasons I suppose.  But I feel that it is also a security reason to fix this present economy.
Apples and oranges. The air traffic controllers went on strike ILLEGALLY.

The CEO’s of PRIVATE COMPANIES did not fall under this administrations jurisdiction—if this administation did not flout our laws and Constitution.
 
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