Catholicism and Gnosticism

[Psychotheosophy]

How does one distinguish between
Catholicism and Gnosticism?

 

[utunumsint]

How does one distinguish between
Catholicism and Gnosticism?

Catholicism asserts that Christ is a real human being (true man) and gnosticism does not.

That’s a big one.

God bless,
Ut

 

[Psychotheosophy]

Catholicism asserts that Christ is a real human being (true man) and gnosticism does not.

That’s a big one.

God bless,
Ut

This must also go along with the gnostic idea that all matter is the seat of evil, not created by God.

(From the book “Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma,”…)

This would deny the Eucharist.
Deny the resurrection of the flesh.
Reject the Divine origin of marriage, through which the matter of the body is reproduced.

I wonder how this would relate to abortion?

The gnostic claim is that all matter is (1 ) eternal and (2) evil.
This contradicts scripture, and apostolic tradition.

(1) "The Vatican Council declared against the ancient pagan and gnostic-manichaen dualism, as well as against modern monism (materialism, pantheism…)

That

“All that exists outside God was, in its whole substance, produced out of nothing by God,” (Gn 1:1, and St. Augustine, “De Gensi contra Manichaeos”)

And

(2) “The world was created for the Glorification of God”
(Ps 148).

“Holy Writ stresses that the created world should serve mankind, but does not regard the happiness of mankind as an end in itself, but as an end subordinated to the glorification of God”

 

[selylidne]

How does one distinguish between Catholicism and Gnosticism?

Gnosticism is a fairly large set of tendencies, and it’s possible to be a faithful Catholic and also be a Gnostic.

Most of the time when one hears about Gnosticism, however, it is the version that includes these claims (among others):

1. 
   *]There is one, wholly Unknowable God, the Monad
   *]There is a great chain of beings emanating from God
   *]The Old Testament god of the Jews is often identified as an evil emanation far down that chain named the Demiurge
   *]The Demiurge created the material universe, which is evil like him.
   *]Salvation is by knowledge of esoteric truths.
   *]Holiness is found in rejecting our nature.
   
   All of those are contrary to Catholicism, which instead teaches these claims:
   1. 
      *]There is one God, the Most Holy Trinity, knowable (though not completely) by faith and reason.
      *]God created freely; nothing just emanated from him.
      *]The Old Testament god of the Jews is the same as the Most Holy Trinity, and he is all-good.
      *]God created the material universe, and it is good.
      *]Salvation is by grace and works of faith.
      *]Holiness is found in perfecting our nature.

 

[Psychotheosophy]

Gnosticism is a fairly large set of tendencies, and it’s possible to be a faithful Catholic and also be a Gnostic.

Most of the time when one hears about Gnosticism, however, it is the version that includes these claims (among others):

1. 
   *]There is one, wholly Unknowable God, the Monad
   *]There is a great chain of beings emanating from God
   *]The Old Testament god of the Jews is often identified as an evil emanation far down that chain named the Demiurge
   *]The Demiurge created the material universe, which is evil like him.
   *]Salvation is by knowledge of esoteric truths.
   *]Holiness is found in rejecting our nature.
   
   All of those are contrary to Catholicism, which instead teaches these claims:
   1. 
      *]There is one God, the Most Holy Trinity, knowable (though not completely) by faith and reason.
      *]God created freely; nothing just emanated from him.
      *]The Old Testament god of the Jews is the same as the Most Holy Trinity, and he is all-good.
      *]God created the material universe, and it is good.
      *]Salvation is by grace and works of faith.
      *]Holiness is found in perfecting our nature.

1. 1. 
      “Tendencies” sounds rather fluid.
      
      How is Gnosticism not self-contradictory?
      In other words,
      What are the principles of Gnosticism, which govern these “tendencies?”

 

[selylidne]

“Tendencies” sounds rather fluid.

How is Gnosticism not self-contradictory?
In other words,
What are the principles of Gnosticism, which govern these “tendencies?”

Uh, it’s an esoteric religion. You can’t derive it from principles, and it doesn’t have dogmatic claims that can be stacked one against another to find contradictions.

 

[Neithan]

Gnosticism was an early attempt to reconcile oriental paganism with Judeo-Christian revelation. The result is, inevitably, heresy. Eastern religions (‘dharma’) are esoteric, based on man’s discovery, and therefore man-made.

Catholicism is exoteric. If God exists, then the true religion must be exoteric (i.e. revealed to us).

 

[Benadam]

Gnosticism taches that the human race is lost.

To be saved one must seek internally for the true self. If the true self is found one will have found the original image we were created in and so will also have found God.

Catholicism teaches that the human race is lost.

To be saved the human race required that the lost image of human perfection be revealed. It no longer existed on earth in man. Only God could reveal to man what was lost.

Gnosticism claims God is found internally when the lost self is found. Man finds God

Catholicism teaches that God became man and made Himself visible . God finds man.

God reveals man to himself =Catholicism

Man reveals himself as God= Gnosticism

 

[Psychotheosophy]

Gnosticism taches that the human race is lost.

To be saved one must seek internally for the true self. If the true self is found one will have found the original image we were created in and so will also have found God.

Catholicism teaches that the human race is lost.

To be saved the human race required that the lost image of human perfection be revealed. It no longer existed on earth in man. Only God could reveal to man what was lost.

Gnosticism claims God is found internally when the lost self is found. Man finds God

Catholicism teaches that God became man and made Himself visible . God finds man.

God reveals man to himself =Catholicism

Man reveals himself as God= Gnosticism

So,

Catholicism = exoteric = God reveals Himself to Man
Gnosticism = esoteric = Man reveals himself to himself (as God)

How would you define “the human race is lost?”

I heard a Freemason teach Gnosticism to a young child once.

She used the examples of,
“Dumbo the Flying Elephant”
And
“Rudolf the Red-Nosed Reindeer”

She said the key to realizing one’s divinity
Was to accept that our weaknesses are actually our strengths

Because then,

We move from ridicule to praise
We move from powerlessness to powerful
etc…

How do we distinguish this from Catholicism?

 

[Benadam]

So,

Catholicism = exoteric = God reveals Himself to Man
Gnosticism = esoteric = Man reveals himself to himself (as God)

How would you define “the human race is lost?”

I heard a Freemason teach Gnosticism to a young child once.

She used the examples of,
“Dumbo the Flying Elephant”
And
“Rudolf the Red-Nosed Reindeer”

She said the key to realizing one’s divinity
Was to accept that our weaknesses are actually our strengths

Because then,

We move from ridicule to praise
We move from powerlessness to powerful
etc…

How do we distinguish this from Catholicism?

Weaknesses turned to strength for gnostics is a process of integrating the shadow into the light. The things about us that we prefered to hide for whatever reason manifest in acts that seem to obstruct conscious activities.

Hence I might say; I would be better at such and such but I tend to such and such. I am trying harder to suppress this weakness…etc.

By accepting rather than suppressing the tendency, whatever it is, becomes a new tool to apply to unknown tasks in ways not thought of previously bringing out talents unrealized before.

Christian weakness as a part of the christians offering of the self to God become opportunity for God to demonstrate that His hand is operative. The humble origins of the Apostles is an example. Mere tradesmen of the ordinary sort confound the sophisticated and learned of the time. Their weakness become a means for God to demonstrate divine strength because ordinary men don’t just become top notch theologians with irrestible arguments overnight.

 

[Benadam]

How would you define “the human race is lost?”

It’s a multifaceted condition to say the least. We have lost human perfection. That preternatural grace that enabled us to know it’s purpose and act towards that end. Human life that completes it’s reason for being created. We have lost that and in it’s place experience a sense of brokeness, a sense that something is missing, something just aint right.

Fundamentally it is a state of being that once lost could not be recreated through the memory of it or in efforts to imitate what we remembered. In fact it becomes a matter of faith to believe it was experienced at all being subject to a fallen memory.

 

[Psychotheosophy]

Weaknesses turned to strength for gnostics is a process of integrating the shadow into the light. The things about us that we prefered to hide for whatever reason manifest in acts that seem to obstruct conscious activities.

Hence I might say; I would be better at such and such but I tend to such and such. I am trying harder to suppress this weakness…etc.

By accepting rather than suppressing the tendency, whatever it is, becomes a new tool to apply to unknown tasks in ways not thought of previously bringing out talents unrealized before.

Christian weakness as a part of the christians offering of the self to God become opportunity for God to demonstrate that His hand is operative. The humble origins of the Apostles is an example. Mere tradesmen of the ordinary sort confound the sophisticated and learned of the time. Their weakness become a means for God to demonstrate divine strength because ordinary men don’t just become top notch theologians with irrestible arguments overnight.

So,
There is no difference between how
Gnostics define weakness,
And
Catholics define weakness?

It’s a multifaceted condition to say the least. We have lost human perfection. That preternatural grace that enabled us to know it’s purpose and act towards that end. Human life that completes it’s reason for being created. We have lost that and in it’s place experience a sense of brokeness, a sense that something is missing, something just aint right.

Fundamentally it is a state of being that once lost could not be recreated through the memory of it or in efforts to imitate what we remembered. In fact it becomes a matter of faith to believe it was experienced at all being subject to a fallen memory.

If we have lost our human perfection,
How could it have been perfect?

 

[Benadam]

So,
There is no difference between how
Gnostics define weakness,
And
Catholics define weakness?

 

[Psychotheosophy]

No difference in definition but since they have distinct value systems they diifer in what is considered weak.

So what Catholicism would consider a sinful action,
Could what a Gnostism would consider a strength?

It’s a multifaceted condition to say the least. We have lost human perfection. That preternatural grace that enabled us to know it’s purpose and act towards that end. Human life that completes it’s reason for being created. We have lost that and in it’s place experience a sense of brokeness, a sense that something is missing, something just aint right.

Fundamentally it is a state of being that once lost could not be recreated through the memory of it or in efforts to imitate what we remembered. In fact it becomes a matter of faith to believe it was experienced at all being subject to a fallen memory.

Freedom is intrinsic to human perfection. So, human perfection isn’t perfect if it can’t be freely abandoned.

So,
Abandoning human perfection is an act of perfection?

 

[Benadam]

So what Catholicism would consider a sinful action,
Could what a Gnostism would consider a strength?

 

[GreenLantern]

I think a distinguishment should be made between gnosticism and Gnosticism.

Small ‘g’ gnosticism is simply anything that isn’t agnostic. Big ‘G’ Gnosticism is the heresy.

 

[Psychotheosophy]

The pattern of gnostic responses seem to be based on certain assumptions…

Catholicism = Gnosticism
weakness = strength
perfection = imperfection
evil = goodness

Therefore…

logic = illogic
So,
Existence = non-existence
So,
God = not God

It seems that Gnosticism is intrinsically illogical,
And I’m not sure we can have a logical discussion about it.

 

[Benadam]

yet how subtle the difference it must sem to someone who doesn’t accept divine revelation as an externally infused immersion into the truth of reality.

While we live on earth the soul is the body. Our sense of wholeness lost in the fall, lost in the pain and fear of death’s sting, is found in the hypostasis of body and soul, earth and heaven, and now, thank God, so that we may not be eternally lost, human and divine.

The OT prophets knew of the Gnosis (big ‘G’) that would be crushed when the true gnosis leapt down from heaven. They called the masters of it ‘false prophets’ and said to them; " you think you have found God but you have only ’ found yourselves’.

When the body is not recognized as the messenger of gnosis it’becomes a necessary evil.

 

[Psychotheosophy]

Outside of logic, we know that…

All people naturally seek Existence in principle, as their end,
And
All people naturally avoid non-existence in principle, as their end

(unless they are confused,
Since
illogic avoids Existence
and
illogic embraces non-existence)

 

[Benadam]

Outside of logic, we know that…

All people naturally seek Existence in principle, as their end,
And
All people naturally avoid non-existence in principle, as their end

(unless they are confused,
Since
illogic avoids Existence
and
illogic embraces non-existence)

I’ve talked to a couple of people who said their deepest desire was to have their immortal soul destroyed. They wished to not exist. Both were at one time very devoted to God yet expected more from God in some way. At the time they both believed in God had a firm grasp on catholic theology yet hated God passionately.

I was perplexed at first but came to the conclusion that they were like spitefull lovers rejecting God in order to relieve the rejected feeling they experience from not having their expectations met.