Catholicism and Gnosticism

[Psychotheosophy]

I’ve talked to a couple of people who said their deepest desire was to have their immortal soul destroyed. They wished to not exist. Both were at one time very devoted to God yet expected more from God in some way. At the time they both believed in God had a firm grasp on catholic theology yet hated God passionately.

I was perplexed at first but came to the conclusion that they were like spitefull lovers rejecting God in order to relieve the rejected feeling they experience from not having their expectations met.

I’ve also talked with people who said their desire was to have their immortal soul annihilated.

However,

Given all things being equal,
All people, including suicidal people,
Prefer Existence
Over nonexistence

You don’t seem to understand.
So I will repeat myself…

Outside of logic, we know that…

All people naturally seek Existence in principle, as their end,
And
All people naturally avoid non-existence in principle, as their end

 

[Benadam]

I’ve also talked with people who said their desire was to have their immortal soul annihilated.

However,

Given all things being equal,
All people, including suicidal people,
Prefer Existence
Over nonexistence

You don’t seem to understand.
So I will repeat myself…/

 

[Ghoti]

The pattern of gnostic responses seem to be based on certain assumptions…

Catholicism = Gnosticism
weakness = strength
perfection = imperfection
evil = goodness

Therefore…

logic = illogic
So,
Existence = non-existence
So,
God = not God

It seems that Gnosticism is intrinsically illogical,
And I’m not sure we can have a logical discussion about it.

War = Peace
Freedom = Slavery
Ignorance = Strength

2009 is gonna make 1984 look like 1969…

 

[Psychotheosophy]

I understand. I argued that they couldn’t desire a reality that is impossible to comprehend. That the desire for non-existence finds it’s source in a desire for happiness therefore a state of existence had not been abandoned.

If Existence, non-existence, Happiness, and unhappiness
Are impossible to completely comprehend
And
If non-existence = Existence = unhappiness = Happiness,

Then still…

Given all things being equal,
All people, including suicidal people,
Prefer Existence (and Happiness)
Over nonexistence (and unhappiness)

And Still…

All people naturally seek Existence (and Happiness) in principle, as their end,
And
All people naturally avoid non-existence (and unhappiness) in principle, as their end

 

[Psychotheosophy]

Assuming,
Evil = Goodness
Why is matter considered evil,
Why not evil and good?

 

[Benadam]

When the body is not recognized as the messenger of gnosis it’becomes evil.

Evil + Good = Evil

 

[Daniel_Keeran]

Gnosticism and docetism were pervasive in Roman society and contributed to the development of a gnostic form of Christianity that looked similar to orthodox biblical Christianity.

1. The idea of the material physical world being evil was an extension of the biblical idea of the created world being fallen. Gnostic Christianity were strongest in North Africa, especially Egypt, and Syria.
2. The most influential school of thought was centered in Alexandria where Tertullian, Clement of A. (Pantaeus was his teacher who travelled to India), Origen (Ambrose was his patron), Cyprian, and Augustine (former gnosic Manichean) emerged.
3. Asceticism was central to gnostic life in which Marcion founded celibate congregations in Syria. Monasticism, ascetic celibate life, first emerged in the Egyptian desert. As the church developed a hierarchy, its members and priests, were drawn from ascetic orders.
4. Origen was rejected because of gnostic-like ideas that human souls pre-existed and were sent into material bodies as punishment for previous sins. The idea of inherited corruption, stain, and contagion acquired when the soul enters a fleshly body, came out of Alexandrian fathers and had this in common with gnostic thought.
5. The notion of penance as required suffering or punishment for sin in order to achieve sanctification is related to the idea of sainthood, which in gnostic terms is represented by the psychics or the perfected ones.
6. The gnostic Pistis Sophia, with its detailed description of cleansing fire needed to become pure before entering heaven, was written by Valentinus before 150 AD and pre-dates all the church fathers comments on prayers for the dead and purgatory.
7. The gnostic trinity was Father, Mother, and Son, in which God has a female consort. Then we find Athanasius of Alexandria first describing Mary as ever-Virgin, and in gnostic writing Mary is queen of angels. In Catholicism, Mary is the consort or spouse of God, and so for Joseph to have intimate relations with her after Jesus’ birth would be considered adultery.

 

[Benadam]

1. The idea of the material physical world being evil was an extension of the biblical idea of the created world being fallen.

 

[Daniel_Keeran]

Daniel Keeran;4881200:

Hi Daniel,

What about Plato?

Yes, many of the gnostic ideas came from eastern dualism brought to Greece by Pythagoras (6c BCE) which were then borrowed by the Romans who loved all things Greek. These pervasive elements then resulted in gnostic Christianity that is referred to even in the NT (2 John 1:7 - Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist).

The apostles opposed some blatant gnostic ideas as did most of the ECF’s, yet some gnostic ideas were unwittingly adopted by the ECF’s because of their pervasiveness in Roman society. We now have the task of sifting through and trying to identify those influences that were strictly biblical and those that were strictly gnostic.

It is interesting to identify the gnostic connections of the ECF’s. Origen converts Ambrose from Valentinian Gnosticism who in turn sponsors the distribution of Origen’s writing in which gnostic ideas of universal salvation and pre-existence of the soul punished with human bodies for sins previously committed. These ideas were condemned but the idea of purging of the soul after death remained. Ambrose converts Augustine from Manichean Gnosticism who teaches predestination of the soul, later condemned, as well as inherited corruption in flesh, retained by the church.

 

[Benadam]

We now have the task of sifting through and trying to identify those influences that were strictly biblical and those that were strictly gnostic.

by the church

.

Daniel, how do you determine what is biblical?

 

[Daniel_Keeran]

1. Whatever is written in the bible is biblical.
2. Within the bible, whatever pertains to the new covenant.

The new covenant does not contain gnostic ideas as being required of Christians that we see in the ECF’s as outlined in my first post.

 

[Psychotheosophy]

When the body is not recognized as the messenger of gnosis it’becomes evil.

Evil + Good = Evil

Good and Evil occur on a continuum.

When you say “Evil,” do you mean:
A lack of some goodness
Or
A lack of all goodness?

 

[ready]

How does one distinguish between
Catholicism and Gnosticism?

Catholicism is based on truth open and accessible to all and is based on Jesus Christ, a person who was also God. Gnosticism is based on secretive knowledge open to only a certain select or the enlightened few, who see themselves as enlightened or gods. Catholicism acknowledges that the body and matter is good. Gnosticism sees matter and the material as evil and only the spiritual as something good.

 

[Psychotheosophy]

When the body is not recognized as the messenger of gnosis it’becomes evil.

Evil + Good = Evil

From a catholic perspective…

Since
Goodness = Existence
And
Existence always adds Existence
Then
Goodness always adds Goodness

Since Evil opposes Goodness
Evil always subtracts Goodness

Then, from your equation…

Evil overcomes Goodness,
Unhappiness overcomes Happiness,
Nonexistence overcomes Existence,

It could be considered suicidal.

 

[Psychotheosophy]

Since,

Goodness = Existence = Perfect Unity

Then,

Given all things being equal,
All people naturally,
Prefer suffering to end imperfection in the body (healing)
Over suffering to end the existence of the body.

Therefore,

All people naturally,
Prefer that the end of the body is to have Goodness, not evil.

 

[ready]

Catholicism acknowledges that the body and matter is good. Gnosticism sees matter and the material as evil and only the spiritual as something good.

What I meant to say was that Gnosticism sees the body and the material as evil and only the spiritual as something good. The body is good because God created it good. Even with original sin it is still a good thing, as it houses the Holy Spirit at Baptism and allows us to serve God with hands a feet to serve the poor.

 

[Psychotheosophy]

What I meant to say was that Gnosticism sees the body and the material as evil and only the spiritual as something good. The body is good because God created it good. Even with original sin it is still a good thing, as it houses the Holy Spirit at Baptism and allows us to serve God with hands a feet to serve the poor.

So,
Since Goodness = Existence
And the body has Existence
Then the body has Goodness.

So,
Since we know
The nature of the body is to have goodness
Then we know
The body has goodness?

 

[ready]

So,
Since Goodness = Existence
And the body has Existence
Then the body has Goodness.

So,
Since we know
The nature of the body is to have goodness
Then we know
The body has goodness?

I guess so.

 

[Psychotheosophy]

Since,

Given all things being equal,
All people, including suicidal people,
Prefer Existence (and Happiness)
Over nonexistence (and unhappiness)

And,

Given all things being equal,
All people naturally,
Prefer suffering to end imperfection in the body (healing)
Over suffering to end the existence of the body.

Then,

Given all things being equal,
All people naturally,
Prefer Happiness over unhappiness,
Prefer Existence over nonexistence,
Prefer bodily unity over bodily disintegration,
And
Prefer bodily goodness over bodily evil?

And so,

If gnosticism accepts that…

Evil overcomes Goodness,
Unhappiness overcomes Happiness,
Nonexistence overcomes Existence,

Then,

gnosticism accepts restriction over freedom
And
Catholicism accepts freedom over restriction?

 

[ready]

Since,

And,

Then,

Given all things being equal,
All people naturally,
Prefer Happiness over unhappiness,
Prefer Existence over nonexistence,
Prefer bodily unity over bodily disintegration,
And
Prefer bodily goodness over bodily evil?

And so,

If gnosticism accepts that…

Then,

gnosticism accepts restriction over freedom
And
Catholicism accepts freedom over restriction?

I am not a theologean. I don’t know what to say. Sorry. (But don’t have anything to do with those Gnostics. Christianity is Truth.)