Catholicism and Military service

[RolandThompsonGunner]

So it is not a good idea to turn the other cheek after all?

It’s a good idea in life your interactions with individuals. I don’t think Jesus meant for it to apply to nations interacting with nations. I mean, Jesus advises the Roman soldiers to be satisfied with their pay and not extort or abuse the civilian population. He didn’t tell them “leave the army because serving in the military is inherently immoral.” Not to mention Augustines just war theory seems to be more or less universally accepted by catholic theologians throughout the centuries.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

s124:

I am a sophomore in high school and getting for college. I have been preparing since seventh grade on going to the United States Air Force Academy. If I go to the academy, my hope is to be a transport pilot in the Air Force.

Although, OP, if you want some unsolicited advice…don’t go to the Air Force Academy, even if you get in. But it wouldn’t be un-Catholic to do so.

I’m not the OP, but you’ve got my curiosity up — why not go to the Air Force Academy? Is there an issue with it?

 

[AlNg]

Not to mention Augustines just war theory seems to be more or less universally accepted by catholic theologians throughout the centuries.

One problem is to determine whether or not a war is just. Was the invasion of Iraq just or was the Vietnam war just? Suppose a war has been determined to be unjust for some reason and you are a soldier on the wrong side, then what? Or more generally, is it OK to join the military if your country has engaged in wars which were unjust?

 

[RolandThompsonGunner]

I’m not the OP, but you’ve got my curiosity up — why not go to the Air Force Academy? Is there an issue with it?

I tend to think that if you want to be a military officer, you’re better off going to a civilian university with an ROTC program. You can still get your education paid for, still get the exact same commission, and you don’t spend four years in a dungeon.

The officers I knew who went to service academies often seemed a little “off” to me. Like they had so thoroughly marinated their brain in military stuff they lost the ability to have normal human conversations.

I mean, they’re excellent (and highly selective) institutions. I just think there are better ways to reach the same destination.

 

[RolandThompsonGunner]

One problem is to determine whether or not a war is just. Was the invasion of Iraq just or was the Vietnam war just? Suppose a war has been determined to be unjust for some reason and you are a soldier on the wrong side, then what? Or more generally, is it OK to join the military if your country has engaged in wars which were unjust?

We can debate individual wars all day. Some are just, some are not. Some are close calls.

I’m not saying a Catholic is obliged to serve in the military. Just pointing out that there is no per se rule against it.

 

[AlNg]

I’m not saying a Catholic is obliged to serve in the military. Just pointing out that there is no per se rule against it.

It is a bit more complicated. Suppose for example in WWII you are in Germany and you know about the concentration camps and the gassing of innocent civilians. Is it OK to volunteer for the German military in such a case, or suppose you are conscripted, would there be any rule against serving on the wrong side of an unjust war?

 

[TominAdelaide]

One problem is to determine whether or not a war is just. Was the invasion of Iraq just or was the Vietnam war just? Suppose a war has been determined to be unjust for some reason and you are a soldier on the wrong side, then what? Or more generally, is it OK to join the military if your country has engaged in wars which were unjust?

The US Bishops have addressed the question of “conscientious objection” to an unjust war here:

http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/military/conscientious-objection.cfm

Conscientious Objection

What should a Catholic in the military do if he believes a particular war to be unjust and he is required to participate in that war?

The overriding principal that binds Catholics-and all human beings-is that we must follow our conscience. Having said that, we must also qualify this with the provision that we are obliged to form our consciences properly and in accord with the truth, as it can be known to us. With regards to war, both the Bible and the Church teach that under the right conditions, war may be justly waged (see our homepage for more information on the Just war theory). If an individual Catholic objects to all war, however, the Church and our Nation have recognized this as an exception that must be honored, if it is rooted in authentic conscientious objection and not lesser motives. With regards to conscientious objection to particular wars, however, the matter is more complicated, for the assumption of our military is that our forces would not be ordered to engage in an unjust war. Hence, traditionally it is more difficult to make the case for conscientious objection to a particular war when the individual is not opposed in conscience to all forms of war. Still, it is true that any nation, including our own, can act unjustly against human life–as is clearly the case in the murder that is abortion. Hence, the Magisterium (teaching authority) of the Church has the right and even duty in cases in which an unjust war is proposed or entered into to speak on the matter and if necessary, to oblige Catholics in conscience to object and refuse to participate. As to the present crisis, many Catholic leaders have spoken against a War on Iraq, yet they have stopped short of insisting upon a course of action for Catholics in the military. Short of that, my own position is to put the matter to prayer and to fulfill my obligation and oath to serve as ordered, unless and until such time that the Church or the evidence so bind me in conscience, that I cannot in good conscience serve.

The short answer to the question: If a Catholic is utterly convinced in conscience that a war is unjust and his own role constitutes direct participation in the effort, he has the right and obligation to object and even refuse to participate, regardless of the consequences to person and career. However, prior to taking such a drastic step, I vigorously urge any Catholic in such a position to seek out the counsel of a Catholic chaplain.

 

[StudentMI]

Well we know Pope Benedict XVI refused to do some things in the German army. I believe he even ran away.

 

[RolandThompsonGunner]

Is it OK to volunteer for the German military in such a case, or suppose you are conscripted, would there be any rule against serving on the wrong side of an unjust war?

No, I think in that case the individual would be obliged to try to avoid military service. Similarly, people have an obligation to refuse immoral or unlawful orders, even if they’re confident their side is “right”‘ overall.

To stick with the WWII analogy, an American or British soldier should refuse an order from his superior to shoot unarmed, captured German soldiers, for example. In the US military at least, this is explicit. Servicemen are obliged, not just allowed, to refuse an order that violates the law of war. That order would be per se illegitimate and non-binding.

 

[twf]

As the OP is asking the question from a Catholic moral perspective, I think this is muddying the waters. Catholics are permitted to serve in the military of their country. The vast majority of Catholics are not Americans, and it is certainly not Church teaching that the USA is the greatest country in the world. (From a Catholic perspective, I would think Poland or the Philippines would both have a stronger case than the US - and it would also be moral to serve in their militaries ).

 

[1cthlctrth]

I agree that Poland and the Philippines are great countries.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Yes.

There is also the German seminarian who was drafted into the SS

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002D9ZLRI/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1

 

[Johann_du_Toit]

“Public authorities, in this case, have the right and duty to impose on citizens the obligations necessary for national defense. Those who are sworn to serve their country in the armed forces are servants of the security and freedom of nations. If they carry out their duty honorably, they truly contribute to the common good of the nation and the maintenance of peace”.
-2310 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church; which cites Gaudium et spes at 79 § 5

 

[AlNg]

“Public authorities, in this case, have the right and duty to impose on citizens the obligations necessary for national defense.

Would the invasion of Iraq and the Vietnam war qualify as necessary for US national defense?

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

I’m not the OP, but you’ve got my curiosity up — why not go to the Air Force Academy? Is there an issue with it?

I tend to think that if you want to be a military officer, you’re better off going to a civilian university with an ROTC program. You can still get your education paid for, still get the exact same commission, and you don’t spend four years in a dungeon.

The officers I knew who went to service academies often seemed a little “off” to me. Like they had so thoroughly marinated their brain in military stuff they lost the ability to have normal human conversations.

I mean, they’re excellent (and highly selective) institutions. I just think there are better ways to reach the same destination.

Anyone who has singleness of purpose and has been in a highly disciplined, laser-focused state of life may seem a little “off” to people who have not shared that experience. I have known service academy alumni and I had no problem having a “normal human conversation” with them.

I would add that service academy officers are highly prized among traditional Catholic young women who seek to marry Catholic men of proven quality, and to have large families with the ultimate financial security.

The short answer to the question: If a Catholic is utterly convinced in conscience that a war is unjust and his own role constitutes direct participation in the effort, he has the right and obligation to object and even refuse to participate, regardless of the consequences to person and career. However, prior to taking such a drastic step, I vigorously urge any Catholic in such a position to seek out the counsel of a Catholic chaplain.

I totally agree with the concept of selective conscientious objection — “war in the abstract is not necessarily immoral, but this particular war is immoral and I cannot participate in it”. Traditional societies would not have had a tolerance for this kind of thinking, but, mirabile dictu, we cannot always look to traditional societies for infallible guidance on everything. Up until a couple of generations ago, even adult children never challenged what the previous generation told them — witness this poignant scene from All In The Family about how Archie responded when Mike suggested that his own father was wrong to be racist:

ETA: (I will leave it to the reader to Google this scene — “shoebootie youtube”. Archie uses an unacceptable term for African Americans. Don’t want to run afoul of CAF offensive content guidelines.)

I do not defend this kind of narrow-mindedness, I am just stating that it was the way people commonly approached the “wisdom” of their parents in those days.

 

[StudentMI]

I remember that scene. It’s very sad. I wasn’t in general a fan of that show but that scene and episode were well done.

 

[RolandThompsonGunner]

Anyone who has singleness of purpose and has been in a highly disciplined, laser-focused state of life may seem a little “off” to people who have not shared that experience. I have known service academy alumni and I had no problem having a “normal human conversation” with them.

I would add that service academy officers are highly prized among traditional Catholic young women who seek to marry Catholic men of proven quality, and to have large families with the ultimate financial security.

Opinions can vary, of course. I’ve known a lot of service academy grads (I was an army officer for a good while) and while they’re not all “weird”, they do seem more eccentric than the average.

Also, I’ve never heard of academy grads being especially sought after by Catholic women, and I don’t see why they have “ultimate financial security”, at least anymore than anyone else in public service.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

I remember that scene. It’s very sad. I wasn’t in general a fan of that show but that scene and episode were well done.

Norman Lear did a nice job with his shows. Unalloyed liberal propaganda, but still, very well done. Even the Maude episodes (it was in two parts) where she was agonizing over whether or not to have an abortion were far more tastefully done and even-handed than I would have expected. (I only saw these a few months ago.) Mercifully, the show did not end with Maude having the abortion — it was kind of ambiguous. I would have felt much better if the next episode had begun with Maude and Walter waking up, Maude saying “Walter, I just had the most horrible dream… oh, never mind!”. The abortion was never mentioned again in the series.

 

[RolandThompsonGunner]

I would add that service academy officers are highly prized among traditional Catholic young women who seek to marry Catholic men of proven quality, and to have large families with the ultimate financial security.

As an aside, if you’re a young Catholic guy looking to meet a wife, you’re probably not well advised to attend an institution that is so disproportionately male.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

I would add that service academy officers are highly prized among traditional Catholic young women who seek to marry Catholic men of proven quality, and to have large families with the ultimate financial security.

As an aside, if you’re a young Catholic guy looking to meet a wife, you’re probably not well advised to attend an institution that is so disproportionately male.

I don’t know about the “Novus Ordo” environment, but in Traditional Latin Mass situations, all that has to happen is for a man’s being, or having been, a service academy cadet, to become common knowledge, and then he pretty much has his pick. I’ve seen it happen.