Catholicism and Military service

[RolandThompsonGunner]

Those poor misguided women…(half joking)

Anyway, OP, just be aware that if you want to be an Air Force officer there are other ways to get there besides the Academy. You can end up in the exact same place without playing silly games for four years.

 

[TC3033]

I tend to think that if you want to be a military officer, you’re better off going to a civilian university with an ROTC program.

Well…ya…if you go through ROTC you enter the military as an officer.

You can still get your education paid for, still get the exact same commission, and you don’t spend four years in a dungeon.

The officers I knew who went to service academies often seemed a little “off” to me. Like they had so thoroughly marinated their brain in military stuff they lost the ability to have normal human conversations.

I’d say it’s the other way around. Those that came in via ROTC didn’t have to go through the same level of training that someone who enlisted went through.

Conscientious Objection

Lol…Conscientious Objection doesn’t work.

 

[RolandThompsonGunner]

Well…ya…if you go through ROTC you enter the military as an officer.

Right. We’re talking about officer accession programs. None of this applies to the enlisted ranks. Not sure what you’re getting at here.

I’d say it’s the other way around. Those that came in via ROTC didn’t have to go through the same level of training that someone who enlisted went through.

People who go to the academies aren’t “enlisted.” And you’re right, an ROTC grad doesn’t have the same amount of time spent doing drill and ceremony, but no one cares about that as an officer anyway. Everything else is a wash.

All that said, maybe my info is out of date and people care about academy rings again. When I was an army officer (2005-2011), the only thing people cared about was “do you have a combat patch?” The only people who thought an academy degree made them different from the OCS/ROTC grads were a subset of academy grads that everyone else made fun of for an inflated sense of self importance.

Anyway, I’m only being half serious here. The academies are fine institutions. Just saying there are alternate routes to the same goal that are just as good if not better.

 

[twf]

Pope St John Paul II condemned the Iraq war and asked President Bush to reconsider. The Chaldean Catholic Patriarch also condemned the war. I don’t think it would be a safe bet for Catholics to defend this particular war.

 

[twf]

I would suspect this has little or nothing to do with traditional Catholicism per se. It seems more likely to me that there happens to be a number of Catholics in these communities who are also American conservatives, in the broad sense of the term…a key value of which is immense respect for the US military. I would be skeptical that military connections would be particularly notable in traditionalist communities in non-American cultures, but I could be wrong.

 

[Pitcairn17]

I would have thought that a young man motivated enough to aspire to a service academy would realize that such an opportunity was about more than playing the “Dating Game.”

 

[TC3033]

Right. We’re talking about officer accession programs. None of this applies to the enlisted ranks. Not sure what you’re getting at here.

Via ROTC you’re basically a reservist who gets a fraction of the training that anyone who enters the officer ranks of those who either enter via an academy or OCS.

People who go to the academies aren’t “enlisted.” And you’re right, an ROTC grad doesn’t have the same amount of time spent doing drill and ceremony, but no one cares about that as an officer anyway. Everything else is a wash.

I’m not just talking about D&C. ROTC cadets can’t even be trained the same as enlisted when it comes to the “basics”. That’s my point.

 

[RolandThompsonGunner]

I would have thought that a young man motivated enough to aspire to a service academy would realize that such an opportunity was about more than playing the “Dating Game.”

If you read the post I was replying to, I was responding to HomeSchoolDad when he said that service academy grads would have catholic women falling all over them.

 

[RolandThompsonGunner]

Via ROTC you’re basically a reservist who gets a fraction of the training that anyone who enters the officer ranks of those who either enter via an academy or OCS.

Yeah this just isn’t true with respect to the academy, at least not in any meaningful way. With OCS you have a point, but that has nothing to do with OCS itself and everything to do with the fact that an OCS candidate has enlisted time.

I mean obviously yes if you go to an academy you live the military 24/7 so you’ll do more “stuff”’ than an ROTC cadet. I just don’t think that “stuff” makes you a better officer.

 

[signit]

I would add that service academy officers are highly prized among traditional Catholic young women who seek to marry Catholic men of proven quality, and to have large families with the ultimate financial security.

Totally agree with that part of it, as my cousin’s son graduated from one of the academies.

I was told that that was one of the reasons why he appealed to the woman he married; here was a chance for a “working girl” working in a retail store to live the life an officer’s wife.

And, I seem to remember from the old movies that it was considered a big prestige thing for women from “high society” to date or marry a “cadet” or “midshipman.”

And on the financial security, it was his contacts from the military that became his clients in his successful career selling insurance.

 

[TC3033]

WIth ROTC, it’s basically a college elective. To make it sound as if ROTC cadets are on the same level when it comes to training and discipline is indeed…interesting.

I just don’t think that “stuff” makes you a better officer.

It probably won’t if you’re going "chair"borne

 

[RolandThompsonGunner]

WIth ROTC, it’s basically a college elective. To make it sound as if ROTC cadets are on the same level when it comes to training and discipline is indeed…interesting.

The fact that you seem to think that anything that goes on in a commissioning source is going to matter in the actual military is…interesting.

Look, we can argue about whether the academies produce better officers on average (Spoiler: they don’t) but that’s not really my point. My point is you can end up in the exact same position via ROTC or OCS and actually enjoy college. If you don’t want to do that because you think you won’t be as “disciplined”, sure, knock yourself out. Just giving the OP one perspective.

It probably won’t if you’re going "chair"borne

Because ROTC grads can’t just go to Airborne School like everyone else? What are you talking about? ROTC and OCS grads have access to the exact same training opportunities as an academy grad. An infantry officer who graduated West Point and an infantry officer who went to the university of Texas and did ROTC have equal access to Ranger School, airborne, air assault and all the rest of it.

 

[TC3033]

The fact that you seem to think that anything that goes on in a commissioning source is going to matter in the actual military is…interesting.

Considering that ROTC cadets that came into or company were so far behind stood out for itself, but hey, I was a lowly NCO so I’m sure it was far above my paygrade.

My point is you can end up in the exact same position via ROTC or OCS

Don’t disagree.

Because ROTC grads can’t just go to Airborne School like everyone else? What are you talking about? ROTC and OCS grads have access to the exact same training opportunities as an academy grad. An infantry officer who graduated West Point and an infantry officer who went to the university of Texas and did ROTC have equal access to Ranger School, airborne, air assault and all the rest of it.

#Sarcasm. Point being was that ROTC cadets tended to be better in “administrative” MOSs. I guess just my opinion.

I was offered Airborne a handful of times too and said hell no, not sure how that would have made me better at my job…but if I were going to lead into battle I would need a hell of a lot more than just Airborne. My $0.02. Maybe a lot has changed since '05

 

[RolandThompsonGunner]

Considering that ROTC cadets that came into or company were so far behind stood out for itself, but hey, I was a lowly NCO so I’m sure it was far above my paygrade.

If that was your experience, it wasn’t mine at all. I’m sorry you had bad officers. I’m not saying that some academy grads aren’t solid officers. They definitely exist. I’m saying that in my experience, they’re no more likely to develop into good officers than anyone else.

My overall point is that all O1s are clueless and borderline useless, whatever their commissioning source. Some will grow into solid officers, some won’t. I’ve never noticed any pattern in terms of quality or ultimate trajectory. Once you get to your first unit, you either perform or don’t and that’s what people judge you on. If you’ve been in more than a year and what people know about you is that you went to West Point, you’ve probably failed.

 

[whatistrue]

Via ROTC you’re basically a reservist who gets a fraction of the training that anyone who enters the officer ranks of those who either enter via an academy or OCS.

Not so sure about that. I looked into Navy ROTC Scholarship umpty-mumble years ago, and essentially you got what OCS got (maybe more actually), just spread over the 4 years of college. Definitely less strictly military (or Naval) than in a service academy, granted.

 

[AlNg]

Pope St John Paul II condemned the Iraq war and asked President Bush to reconsider. The Chaldean Catholic Patriarch also condemned the war.

What happens if you sign up for the military and then you are assigned to fight a war which was condemned by the Chaldean Catholic Patriarch and the Pope? Would it be a mortal sin to participate in such a war?

 

[LeafByNiggle]

There is nothing in an absolute sense that makes military service incompatible with Catholicism. I suppose in the vast majority of instances it is compatible, and in many cases even laudable. But there are those exceptional cases when a member of the military might find himself in a situation where he has been given an order that seems to him objectively evil. The obvious example is some of the orders given by the Nazis in World War II. Also the My Lai Massacre in the Vietnam War comes to mind.

The problem is that upon joining the military, at least in the US and probably in every other nation, the person takes an oath to obey orders without question. The idea is that in some cases the higher up commanders have information that the lower level soldiers do not have, and the commander cannot always explain the reason for every order. So an order can seem immoral to an enlisted man when it might not be in any absolute sense. But then it is possible for an order to really be immoral, as we have seen happen in history.

That brings us to the matter of the oath. If the Catholic takes such an oath, is he binding himself to following all orders, including immoral ones? Or can he “cross his fingers” and say the words without meaning it? Or if one has so much confidence in the goodness of one’s military that such a person could perhaps take that oath of obedience without worry?

I don’t believe I have answered the question, but I hope I have opened up some avenues of consideration.

 

[AlNg]

The problem is that upon joining the military, at least in the US and probably in every other nation, the person takes an oath to obey orders without question.

Yes this is a huge problem as I noted above. Suppose the Pope and Catholic Patriarch declare a war unjust and condemned it as unjust. What does the Catholic soldier do when assigned to fight in this unjust war? Is it morally acceptable to take an oath which obligates a soldier to fight in an unjust war and thereby kill innocent people on the other side.

 

[VonDerTann]

I’d respectfully offer this, as to service academies:

If you get into one, GO.

1. They are the ultimate door-opener as none are. Being a grad of West Point or Annapolis (and the AF academy is a bit behind them, but still excellent) makes you a very elite individual. All military officers are not created equal: service academy grads are the elite of the military and later on in life. A member of “the long grey line” as west pointers are called is a member of a very distinguished fraternity with “ins” in business; high-tech industries; and politics as few others are, moreso IMHO than even Harvard & Yale.
2. Along the same lines, academy grads get first pick of open military assignments worldwide and ROTC grads pick when they’re done IIRC.
3. They are an Ivy League level education and they’re 100% free.

As to grads’ desirability as spouses…they are, or at least were. I knew a great lady who went to Ladycliffe college (when there was a ladycliffe; it’s now the West Point army museum), which was a women-only college. Their students - surprise, surprise - all wanted to marry grads. Their students looked down on my friend because she couldn’t “snare” a cadet husband…until some of those husbands started returning in body bags from a place called Vietnam.

My mother saved an invite to a West Point ball all her life - which she attended with a cadet long before she met my dad…

If you get in, GO.

(And I’m partial to army, BTW. “Let’s go play navy”…said no kid ever.)

 

[RolandThompsonGunner]

Along the same lines, academy grads get first pick of open military assignments worldwide and ROTC grads pick when they’re done IIRC.

Where on earth did you hear this?