Catholicism (Authority, Succession, and Baptism)

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Church_Militant said:
You mean this? 2nd Maccabees 12:39-45

39: On the next day, as by that time it had become necessary, Judas and his men went to take up the bodies of the fallen and to bring them back to lie with their kinsmen in the sepulchres of their fathers.
40: Then under the tunic of every one of the dead they found sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. And it became clear to all that this was why these men had fallen.
41: So they all blessed the ways of the Lord, the righteous Judge, who reveals the things that are hidden;
42: and they turned to prayer, beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out. And the noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen.
43: He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection.
44: For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead.
45: But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.

Remember I told you that the Jews believe in a Purgatory even to this day? Well, now you see part of the reason why.
Pax tecum,
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Ironically, Saint Paul references this book in his letter to the Hebrews. Consequently, he must have been aware of this passage.

God Bless,
michael
 
mikeledes said:
Ironically, Saint Paul references this book in his letter to the Hebrews. Consequently, he must have been aware of this passage.

God Bless,
michael
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I didn’t say I didn’t believe in Purgatory. It’s clear that something similar exsists. The parable told by Jesus in Luke 16 gives good evidence. In fact, it also give a indication that this place is completely free of torrement. This place is also, probably, the place where christians from the OT testament were held until a perfect sacrifice(Jesus, the Lamb that was slane) that would atone comletely for their sins, could be given up. Because before Jesus, no sacrifice offered could completely remove the stain of sin.
 
myfavoritmartin said:
Thats to bad, ever read the first part of 1 cor. 12: 1-12 I think when you read about the spiritual gifts your mind will change…
it is real!
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I have “issues” with the modern day charismatic movement. The Apostles at Pentecost spoke real languages, not the babbling that goes on in charismatic churches.
Years ago I read an interesting book titled *The Corinthian Catastrophe *by George E. Gardiner. One good point he makes is that the gift of tongues was primarily a sign to the unbelieving Jews, and was manifested only when Jews were present (like when Cornelius was baptised; OTOH, when the Ethiopian eunuch was baptized, no such gift was manifested).
Could the gift of tongues be present today? I’m not going to judge, since I’ve never experienced it (though I’ve prayed for it- however, Paul tells us in v. 31 of the chapter you mentioned to strive for the greater gifts, which, he tells us in 13:13 are faith, hope and charity), but it just seems to me that much of the charismatic experience is based on hyper-emotionalism.

Just my :twocents:
 
SoonerServant said:
And why did Jesus use the word “this”? Wouldn’t that more likely be referring to a characteristic (faith) of a person than the person himself
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I know this is an old topic, but I thought I’d chime in because I came across it.

To paraphrase (for refreshing the topic) the context of Mt 16:18, Simon Peter basically states what he believes. Jesus implies Simon Peter believes because of his faith in God.

A couple points:
  1. In previous posts you say:
SoonerServant said:
Instead of," and on this rock I will build my church" Why didn’t he say" and on you I will build my church."
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In the same way, one can argue, If Jesus meant Faith as the Rock, why not say instead of Peter, “And I say to thee, you have great faith.” Wouldn’t it be clearer that Jesus was referring to Simon Peter’s faith? And you say
SoonerServant said:
See what happened here is that Peter spoke a truth, then Jesus spoke one in return.
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But He already spoke a Truth before that saying “Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven.” Was that not another Truth? So why speak another truth?
  1. But he did say “Thou art Peter” and for good reason, to relate the text that followed, to Peter. And that is better understood if you read the text in Greek and know the language. In quoting “on this rock,” the Scriptures use the Greek construction “tautee tee” which means on “this” rock; on “this same” rock; or on “this very” rock. “Tautee tee” is a demonstrative construction in Greek, pointing to Peter, the subject of the sentence as the very rock on which Jesus builds His Church. The demonstrative (“tautee”) generally refers to its closest antecedent (“Petros”).
 
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