Catholicism can and must change, Francis forcefully tells Italian church gathering

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guanophore said:
I hope so, but if not, it is likely because you do not realize what you are teaching is an error. I am confident in the goodness of your heart and intentions.

These are Church disciplines and sacramental practices. They change over time because they are not part of the immutable doctrine of the faith. There may need to be changes, but that does not make what happened previously “silly” or “crazy”.

Yes! People need to love Him first, then we can talk about commandments.

I agree that it is difficult to watch every word you say. I am eager for you to correct me where I have misunderstood your posts. It does not help me to understand you better if you just deny what you wrote. Maybe it did not come across right for me, and I can work on that, but if you are not willing to stand behind what you have written, maybe it would be better not to write it?
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I explained why I think some rules are silly. I didn’t say doctrine or dogma is silly. You could click on that arrow thing and reread. You have to understand the JIST of what I’m saying and not hang onto every word. I DO believe that some rules are SILLY. We’re mature christians Guanophore - at least some of us here. And we’d like to start being treated as such - by the church.

Please don’t start an argument based on what I just said.
Also, I’ve said before that when having a conversation, it’s not possible to support by source everything one says. The sources are in my brain - you can accept what I say or leave it. If it sounds wrong to you you could look it up online. I’m not here to debate or prove everything I say - it shouldn’t have to be necessary since people on these threads are intelligent enough to know if what I’m saying is wrong.

I’ve stated what I heard the Pope say. You maybe heard something different. It’s okay. You’re allowed. You could also state what you heard the pope say, that would be more interesting than reading exchanges between me and you.

Good day
Fran
 
Thomas_White said:
Dei Verbum is the dogmatic constitution on divine revelation. I suggested you read Dei Verbum yourself. I honestly don’t know what you are trying to say and would prefer to let it go with that.
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I have read dei verbum several times. And still development of doctrine isn’t a dogma.
 
Brendan_64 said:
Indeed.

Yes indeed.
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Thank you,Brendan.
This was in Florence. And Francis drew from the paintings in some parts of his speech.
When you mentioned the public square in this context of Christian humanism, it is hard not to be drawn to beauty and where we seek to find it. And how God works in us.
God bless you and thanks again.
 
From a secular author:

Why conservative Christians would have hated Jesus
Even as they profess to spread his word, fundamentalists are forgetting Jesus’ most important message

Jesus never could have been the pastor of a contemporary evangelical church nor a conservative Roman Catholic bishop. Evangelicals and conservative Roman Catholics thrive on drawing distinctions between their “truth” and other people’s failings. Jesus by contrast, set off an empathy time bomb that obliterates difference.

Jesus’ empathy bomb explodes every time a former evangelical puts love ahead of what the “Bible says.” It goes off every time Pope Francis puts inclusion ahead of dogma. It goes off every time a gay couple are welcomed into a church. Jesus’ time bomb explodes whenever atheists follow Jesus better than most Christians.

Put it this way: Godless non-church-going Denmark mandates four weeks of maternity leave before childbirth and fourteen weeks afterward for mothers. Parents of newborn children are assisted with well-baby nurse-practitioner visits in their homes.

In the “pro-life” and allegedly “family friendly” American Bible belt, conservative political leaders slash programs designed to help women and children while creating a justifying mythology about handouts versus empowerment.

In “God-fearing America” the poor are now the “takers,” no longer the “least of these,” and many conservative evangelicals side with today’s Pharisees, attacking the poor in the name of following the Bible.

So who is following Jesus?

Confronted by the Bible cult called evangelicalism we have a choice: follow Jesus or follow a book cult.

Read the rest: salon.com/2014/11/03/why_conservative_christians_would_have_hated_jesus_partner/

A lot of this is exactly what Pope Francis was referring to.
 
Yes. A Salon article from a left-wing wacko really adds to the conversation here. Here are the titles of some of his other articles and blog posts:

“Ireland to Roman Catholic Church “Get Lost!” R.I.P Catholic neocons! (And good riddance)” - Celebrating Ireland’s vote for same-sex marriage; “Just How Sick is American Law Enforcement? AP Study Proves Cops Do Huge Number of Violent Sex Crimes”; “Where Do These Loser Coward Cops Come From?”; “Here is Just How Stupid, Sick and Twisted the Tea Party Gun “Rights” Gang Is”; “If there were no “holy books” how much easier it would be to believe in God!”; “Here’s Another (Visual) Reason to Keep the Republicans out of the White House”; “Only Stupid White Scum (and Cowards) Fly the Confederate Flag”; “Republican Lies About Obama Contributed to the Climate of Murder and Hate That Just Exploded in SC”.

We get it, gilliam. You dislike traditional Catholics and political conservatives. Good for you.
 
gilliam said:
From a secular author:

Why conservative Christians would have hated Jesus
Even as they profess to spread his word, fundamentalists are forgetting Jesus’ most important message

Jesus never could have been the pastor of a contemporary evangelical church nor a conservative Roman Catholic bishop. Evangelicals and conservative Roman Catholics thrive on drawing distinctions between their “truth” and other people’s failings. Jesus by contrast, set off an empathy time bomb that obliterates difference.
…

A lot of this is exactly what Pope Francis was referring to.
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Pretty judgmental and exclusionary commentary.

Dan
 
dans0622 said:
Pretty judgmental and exclusionary commentary.

Dan
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Yes, but it fits the theme. Conservative/Traditional Catholic = Tea Party Conservative Republican = scum of the earth. Progressive/Liberal Catholic = Compassionate Democrat = savior of the planet.
 
pnewton said:
Soooooo, labeling is bad unless you are doing it?
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Did I say that? I’m not labeling anyone. I’m just using the same hyperbole as the author and the theme of the arguments. Anyone is free to read and judge for themselves.
 
SWolf said:
It reminds me of Planet Fitness. They are a ‘judgement free zone’, unless you are a ‘lunk’, a term they use to describe bodybuilders, powerlifters, etc. You know, the ones who take fitness seriously and pass on their free bagels and pizza. They are too ‘intimidating’.

Maybe that’s it. Catholics who do not take their faith seriously are intimidated by those that do. They want the bar lowered, forcefully.
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Funny, good example because powerlifters and body builders are not “taking fitness seriously”. They are focused on either body sculpting or lifting more weight, both of which can easily lead to unhealthy practices that get in the way of general fitness.

I’ve noticed lots of people in Catholics who make a big show off their Catholicism, and for their sakes, I hope Jesus isn’t real because it could go badly for then if he is. They are completely obsessed with focusing on the speck in each other’s eyes. And their zeal to point out others faults, well they really seem to have forgotten that they say to God on a regular basis,“Forgive us as we forgive those who trespass against us.” Okay, so they want that with extra judgement and legalism! What a weird thing to want for oneself.
 
Mongo said:
I have read dei verbum several times. And still development of doctrine isn’t a dogma.
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Mongo said:
I have read dei verbum several times. And still development of doctrine isn’t a dogma.
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Do you then conclude that what was revealed to the Apostolic preachers was immediately and universally understood and would remain so until the end of time?

This level of understanding isn’t even true for an individual let alone for the entire world throughout the course of history. It is necessarily a continued process.
 
Michael1978 said:
Yes, but it fits the theme. Conservative/Traditional Catholic = Tea Party Conservative Republican = scum of the earth. Progressive/Liberal Catholic = Compassionate Democrat = savior of the planet.
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Michael1978 said:
Yes, but it fits the theme. Conservative/Traditional Catholic = Tea Party Conservative Republican = scum of the earth. Progressive/Liberal Catholic = Compassionate Democrat = savior of the planet.
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No. Traditional Catholicism and conservatism/fundamentalism are not at all the same thing. All of the above comingles politics with Catholicism.
 
Michael1978 said:
Yes, but it fits the theme. Conservative/Traditional Catholic = Tea Party Conservative Republican = scum of the earth. Progressive/Liberal Catholic = Compassionate Democrat = savior of the planet.
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No. Traditional Catholicism and conservatism/fundamentalism are not at all the same thing. All of the above comingles politics with Catholicism.
 
Thomas_White said:
No. Traditional Catholicism and conservatism/fundamentalism are not at all the same thing. All of the above comingles politics with Catholicism.
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I agree. My point was to show how the secular media and some Catholics can’t draw a distinction.
 
Brendan said:
So if your parish wanted to start up, say, a street evangelization team, or a group to visit the hospitalized, your parish would have to establish that through the diocese?

Is that what you are saying?
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From what I recall, under canon law they have to get permission from the Bishop of the diocese, which is usually done through the local parish.

About 35 years ago, there were a group of Catholics in my area going door-to-door evangelizing, calling people to return to the Church. They’d come into the home and with the members of the family, kneel and say a decade of the Rosary with them. However, they were following the unapproved apparitions at Bay Side NY to spread their message.

My pastor along with the Bishop, ordered them to stop. They did obey.

Of course Bay Side was found to be fraudulent.

Jim
 
gilliam said:
From a secular author:

Why conservative Christians would have hated Jesus
Even as they profess to spread his word, fundamentalists are forgetting Jesus’ most important message

Jesus never could have been the pastor of a contemporary evangelical church nor a conservative Roman Catholic bishop. Evangelicals and conservative Roman Catholics thrive on drawing distinctions between their “truth” and other people’s failings. Jesus by contrast, set off an empathy time bomb that obliterates difference.

So who is following Jesus?

Confronted by the Bible cult called evangelicalism we have a choice: follow Jesus or follow a book cult.

Read the rest: salon.com/2014/11/03/why_conservative_christians_would_have_hated_jesus_partner/

A lot of this is exactly what Pope Francis was referring to.
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Thank you Lord, that I am not like those judgmental conservative Catholics… :rolleyes:
 
SWolf said:
Thank you Lord, that I am not like those judgmental conservative Catholics… :rolleyes:
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Indeed, we truly are a horrible bunch. We sit po-faced in the back pews at Mass, muttering things in Latin, judging others, and never sullying ourselves by going out into the real world to evangelise. A truly awful bunch indeed.
 
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