Catholicism can and must change, Francis forcefully tells Italian church gathering

[guanophore]

Hmmm. I don’t think that’s how it was for me. Was I ever orthodox? What does that even mean?

A living church and a living spirit. Both good. But not everyone is lucky enough!

Fran

It is hard to tell if you were ever orthodox. It does not seem so from your posts. Orthodox Catholic faith adheres to the Teachings of the Church, including the authority of the Church.

Non-Orthodox Catholicism can be nominal Catholicism (people who are Catholic in name /culture only, and don’t practice the faith (lapsed), or “Cafeteria Catholics” which is what you seem to be, who pick and choose which parts of the faith they want to embrace and reject the others.

 

[Smfm]

He seems to bring up those words in the context of Pelagianism. The Pelagianism that he talks about seems to imply perfect, ideal, beyond reproach, but only perfect and ideal, because it is lived out in the fleshless, bloodless, realm of the abstract, in the world without dirt, and filth, and bruises, and doubt, and equivocation.
That attitude of certainty that the pope is speaking against involves using dogma not as an armour against sin, but an armor against authentic dialogue with people who have very different ideas and attitudes and lifestyles.

The attitude that the pope is talking about, I think, goes something like 'Church teaching is perfect and beyond reproach, beyond change, so therefore I am perfect and beyond reproach, inasmuch as I ape Church teaching".

The pope prefers doubt, and therefore openness,over a certainty that walls us in, cocoons us even. A church of flesh is subject to bruising, and growth, and transformation. Flesh lives, with all the pain and pleasure and vulnerability and thrill that is implied by a life in the flesh.

A church beyond change is a church that is calcified, hardened, as beautiful and cold and flawlessly smooth and lifeless as marble.

It reminds me of the song ‘life is change, how it differs from the rocks’.

‘The RCC is the truth, end of argument’ leaves the Church invulnerable, but untouchable. It sounds like the pope wants Italians to open up to the truths of those who are outside of the cold stone impermeable walls of the fortress church.

Jesus let them walk away !

 

[frangiuliano115]

It is hard to tell if you were ever orthodox. It does not seem so from your posts. Orthodox Catholic faith adheres to the Teachings of the Church, including the authority of the Church.

Non-Orthodox Catholicism can be nominal Catholicism (people who are Catholic in name /culture only, and don’t practice the faith (lapsed), or “Cafeteria Catholics” which is what you seem to be, who pick and choose which parts of the faith they want to embrace and reject the others.

You shouldn’t worry about what type of catholic I am but stick to asking me questions or what I believe about certain topics.

I know the teachings of the church, I’ve adhered to the authority of the church. As far as faith, I follow Jesus - He’s the Truth, The Way and The Life.

I don’t pick and choose. I’d like to see more spirituality in our church and less legalism. I’m beginning to see the legalism as I never did before. I’m not happy with legalism. If you don’t understand what I or Pope Francis means by that, well, we could discuss that - but not what type of Catholic I am.

Fran

 

[frangiuliano115]

FOR GUANOPHORE

I found that quote re Pope Benedict. Vouthon has it posted on no. 232.
It says how the church should be flexible - not on social matters.

Also, I’d have to agree with Thomas White’s post no. 234. Very well put.

Fran

 

[guanophore]

FOR GUANOPHORE

I found that quote re Pope Benedict. Vouthon has it posted on no. 232.
It says how the church should be flexible - not on social matters.

Also, I’d have to agree with Thomas White’s post no. 234. Very well put.

Fran

None of these sources have contradicted the Teaching of the Church, as you have.

You shouldn’t worry about what type of catholic I am but stick to asking me questions or what I believe about certain topics.

I know the teachings of the church, I’ve adhered to the authority of the church. As far as faith, I follow Jesus - He’s the Truth, The Way and The Life.

I don’t pick and choose. I’d like to see more spirituality in our church and less legalism. I’m beginning to see the legalism as I never did before. I’m not happy with legalism. If you don’t understand what I or Pope Francis means by that, well, we could discuss that - but not what type of Catholic I am.

Fran

My “worry about the type of catholic you are” is confined to the effects of your posts about the Catholic faith on a public forum. When a person identifies publicly as a Catholic Catechist, ,then creates posts that contradict the faith, it is concerning. It presents a scandal to the faith. Your posts come across as though you are picking and choosing.

 

[frangiuliano115]

None of these sources have contradicted the Teaching of the Church, as you have.

My “worry about the type of catholic you are” is confined to the effects of your posts about the Catholic faith on a public forum. When a person identifies publicly as a Catholic Catechist, ,then creates posts that contradict the faith, it is concerning. It presents a scandal to the faith. Your posts come across as though you are picking and choosing.

You know, scandal is a serious accusation in the catholic faith.

I’m surprised the moderator let this go through.

If I posted the source, doesn’t that mean I’m in agreement with it?

So how am I contradicting the teachings of the Catholic church??

Readers must be so interested in these private posts…

 

[guanophore]

You know, scandal is a serious accusation in the catholic faith.

Yes.

I’m surprised the moderator let this go through.

They only investigate when there is a complaint. If you would like to make one, you can use the exclamation point at the top of the post. You can also forward the offending post to the moderator that is responsible for the thread to which it was posted. I think it is likely they will agree that a person identifying as a Catholic Catechist who is misrepresenting the faith can certainly cause a scandal.

If I posted the source, doesn’t that mean I’m in agreement with it?

Certainly not.

So how am I contradicting the teachings of the Catholic church??

Readers must be so interested in these private posts…

There are many people who come to CAF to get “Catholic Answers”. When non Catholic answers are posted by Catholics, it is confusing to the readers.

Some people who do not want to post on a thread will send a PM, so yes, there are reaaders that are interested in the posts.

 

[Darryl1958]

None of these sources have contradicted the Teaching of the Church, as you have.

My “worry about the type of catholic you are” is confined to the effects of your posts about the Catholic faith on a public forum. When a person identifies publicly as a Catholic Catechist, ,then creates posts that contradict the faith, it is concerning. It presents a scandal to the faith. Your posts come across as though you are picking and choosing.

My own take is that you are way out of line in your criticism of this poster.
While certainly a lot of the discussions here are going over my head, this Fran person strikes me as having an authentic Catholic faith.

 

[Thomas_White]

My own take is that you are way out of line in your criticism of this poster.
While certainly a lot of the discussions here are going over my head, this Fran person strikes me as having an authentic Catholic faith.

I agree.

 

[Thomas_White]

None of these sources have contradicted the Teaching of the Church, as you have.

My “worry about the type of catholic you are” is confined to the effects of your posts about the Catholic faith on a public forum. When a person identifies publicly as a Catholic Catechist, ,then creates posts that contradict the faith, it is concerning. It presents a scandal to the faith. Your posts come across as though you are picking and choosing.

My own take is that you are way out of line in your criticism of this poster.
While certainly a lot of the discussions here are going over my head, this Fran person strikes me as having an authentic Catholic faith.

I agree. The criticisms are uncharitable and way out of line.

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

…

I don’t pick and choose. I’d like to see more spirituality in our church and less legalism. I’m beginning to see the legalism as I never did before. I’m not happy with legalism. If you don’t understand what I or Pope Francis means by that, well, we could discuss that - but not what type of Catholic I am.

Fran

I was just thinking about Pope Francis - he just loves to give people a right earwigging - and he always seems to be smiling when he does it (or looking over his glasses like a weary schoolteacher)!

Presumably Jesus and even St Paul wasn’t so much saying (sharply intaking breath) “I just hope against hope they don’t go and put a foot wrong now” - they knew very well their audience was going to make a mess of it (and note what Francis keeps saying about that).

I was thinking today, what if God is so determined to have diversity in the world and the Church, he insists we should have approaches that clash, just to make us think more deeply about unity. What to some of us looks like legalism is probably very sweet to Him coming from the heart of someone He alone knows as they really are.

Now about people getting at other people, one can bear it if one has learned good enough boundaries and the assurance of God’s affirmation. God doesn’t agree with someone making us knuckle under - there are honest and calm ways of further exploring any issue at any time needed. One should make up one’s mind about new information in one’s own time, rather than to snap deadlines.

After all the shocks of life - and they will still come every day, and bigger all the time - we are constantly having to do the umpteenth double-take, questioning YET again whether we know anything at all!

As for what’s wrong in our churches - don’t they know it’s late in time?! Well God will one day find us just started - in my case, just started with praying for my bishop, priest, fellow parishioners etc.

 

[frangiuliano115]

I was just thinking about Pope Francis - he just loves to give people a right earwigging - and he always seems to be smiling when he does it (or looking over his glasses like a weary schoolteacher)!

Presumably Jesus and even St Paul wasn’t so much saying (sharply intaking breath) “I just hope against hope they don’t go and put a foot wrong now” - they knew very well their audience was going to make a mess of it (and note what Francis keeps saying about that).

I was thinking today, what if God is so determined to have diversity in the world and the Church, he insists we should have approaches that clash, just to make us think more deeply about unity. What to some of us looks like legalism is probably very sweet to Him coming from the heart of someone He alone knows as they really are.

Now about people getting at other people, one can bear it if one has learned good enough boundaries and the assurance of God’s affirmation. God doesn’t agree with someone making us knuckle under - there are honest and calm ways of further exploring any issue at any time needed. One should make up one’s mind about new information in one’s own time, rather than to snap deadlines.

After all the shocks of life - and they will still come every day, and bigger all the time - we are constantly having to do the umpteenth double-take, questioning YET again whether we know anything at all!

As for what’s wrong in our churches - don’t they know it’s late in time?! Well God will one day find us just started - in my case, just started with praying for my bishop, priest, fellow parishioners etc.

We’re weak and fragile beings Vic. God will love who loves Him. We shouldn’t be judgmental of each other though. Just state what we believe to be true; we might even not get it right on spot sometimes. But with love, and received with love.

Jesus said his disciples would be known because they love one another. Agape love. We fall short, don’t we?

There is no them
There is no them
There’s only us

Invisible
U2

 

[SuperLuigi]

We shall see if it falls on deaf ears, however. Even here, among ourselves, the CAF regulars, there is an aversion to “go forth to the streets”. We all to often sit comfortably within the walls of our parish chapel, more concerned with who we think is worthy of sitting in the pews than opening the doors for "the abandoned, the forgotten, [and even more so], the imperfect.

That’s news to me. People just go about their daily lives, and last I look it’s conservatives who are doing quite of charitable giving in terms of money compared to their liberal counterparts.

 

[Vouthon]

I agree. The criticisms are uncharitable and way out of line.

I want to reiterate this. I think that his comments towards Fran were below the belt and judgemental in a very offensive manner.

 

[guanophore]

I agree. The criticisms are uncharitable and way out of line.

My own take is that you are way out of line in your criticism of this poster.
While certainly a lot of the discussions here are going over my head, this Fran person strikes me as having an authentic Catholic faith.

Thank you for your feedback. I will work harder to keep the PM out of the threads.

 

[Darryl1958]

Thank you for your feedback. I will work harder to keep the PM out of the threads.

I think it is fair game to call someone out as long as it is specific, like the Magesterium teaches “A”, but you are proclaiming “B”.

 

[guanophore]

I want to reiterate this. I think that his comments towards Fran were below the belt and judgemental in a very offensive manner.

I apologize, I did not mean to be offensive. I was offended by what I read, but not by the person who wrote it.

 

[fred_conty]

In contrast to this thread which says Catholicism must and can change, we have another thread “Give ‘clear instructions about doctrine and morals,’ Pope tells Slovakia’s bishops.’”

So it seems to me that the Pope isn’t saying that our teachings will change, but that we must change. He especially mentioned about the face of Jesus, that we should look at it and remember the love Jesus showed to others so we can be more in his image. That is more open to understanding others and being kind to them in their needs. So that Catholocism consists more than just knowing its teachings. It means softening our heart.

 

[fin]

Sounds like good advice that His Holiness should take himself.

In contrast to this thread which says Catholicism must and can change, we have another thread “Give ‘clear instructions about doctrine and morals,’ Pope tells Slovakia’s bishops.’”

 

[Darryl1958]

Sounds like good advice that His Holiness should take himself.

Sometimes popes and bishops and cardinals are too smart by half.
Clarity often involves keeping the message simple and to the point.