Catholicism can and must change, Francis forcefully tells Italian church gathering

[JimR-OCDS]

I teach religious ed, 8th graders. We discussed how we all develop our faith in God differently. While we all have the same religious education, we all are of the same Church and we all follow the basic tenets of our faith, no two Catholics walk their paths in Christ the same way. Some of us will fall away from the Church in college, only to come back when we start having kids. Some of us will have moments where we will doubt the existence of God or the authority of the Church. Our job to seek and discern is a life time process and it will have its peaks and valleys. But I also told them never to doubt, even for a second, that God is by their side. Mother Teresa knew that God had not abandoned her even when she felt as if he had. Faith building is like muscle building. You need to rip apart some fibers in order to build better stronger ones. Some of the most faithful Catholics are the ones who have gone through difficult periods of discernment.

We should never disparage another Catholic because their path is different from the one we think is right for us. No human can judge another like that. That’s threading in God’s territory. What we can do is offer encouragement, kindness and compassion. While I agree that people in this forum can be a bit judgmental, I also find that many are loving and willing to help their fellow Catholics as we all struggle to walk our own paths in Christ.

This is because there is a difference between faith and religion.

Most Catholics, especially cradle Catholics will be taught religion, but not receive the gift of faith which can only come from God.

In time, some like myself begin to realize if there is a God, if Jesus is real, then its up to Him to prove it. Our job is to be open to Him.

So, faith is the revelation of Jesus Christ Himself, “however that may happen.” This can only happen when a person turns to God and surrenders all they have to Him. In other words, we become spiritually naked and surrender all of our being to Jesus.

From here, religion will be the response to faith and will have true meaning for which they can grow with.

Jim

 

[guanophore]

This is because there is a difference between faith and religion.

Most Catholics, especially cradle Catholics will be taught religion, but not receive the gift of faith which can only come from God.

In time, some like myself begin to realize if there is a God, if Jesus is real, then its up to Him to prove it. Our job is to be open to Him.

So, faith is the revelation of Jesus Christ Himself, “however that may happen.” This can only happen when a person turns to God and surrenders all they have to Him. In other words, we become spiritually naked and surrender all of our being to Jesus.

From here, religion will be the response to faith and will have true meaning for which they can grow with.

Jim

Catechists are being taught now that their work is not to have religion classes, but to provide faith formation. For many it is to evangelize those who are already sacramentalized. I think that catechism needs to be providing the structure and opportunity fo this kind of faith encounter to occur. It is very different from the catechism I received as a child.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Catechists are being taught now that their work is not to have religion classes, but to provide faith formation. For many it is to evangelize those who are already sacramentalized. I think that catechism needs to be providing the structure and opportunity fo this kind of faith encounter to occur. It is very different from the catechism I received as a child.

I taught Confirmation Classes to 11th graders for years.

Most came because their parents made them come to class and made them receive their Confirmation.

When you have a class room full of people who were forced there, getting through on matters of faith are very difficult.

So, I decided that what they needed most was to understand that there is a difference between living a spiritual life and just going to Church out of a sense of obligation.

I opened their hearts and minds to contemplative prayer. Some didn’t get it, but many did and I was amazed how well they received it. If anything, it made them see that Jesus Christ dwells within, and they could turn to Him anytime they wanted at any place they were in.

How well this sunk in, I have no idea, but I had kids who were more attentive than when I first began teaching, when the focus was religion alone.

Jim

 

[clem456]

I teach religious ed, 8th graders. We discussed how we all develop our faith in God differently. While we all have the same religious education, we all are of the same Church and we all follow the basic tenets of our faith, no two Catholics walk their paths in Christ the same way. Some of us will fall away from the Church in college, only to come back when we start having kids. Some of us will have moments where we will doubt the existence of God or the authority of the Church. Our job to seek and discern is a life time process and it will have its peaks and valleys. But I also told them never to doubt, even for a second, that God is by their side. Mother Teresa knew that God had not abandoned her even when she felt as if he had. Faith building is like muscle building. You need to rip apart some fibers in order to build better stronger ones. Some of the most faithful Catholics are the ones who have gone through difficult periods of discernment.

We should never disparage another Catholic because their path is different from the one we think is right for us. No human can judge another like that. That’s threading in God’s territory. What we can do is offer encouragement, kindness and compassion. While I agree that people in this forum can be a bit judgmental, I also find that many are loving and willing to help their fellow Catholics as we all struggle to walk our own paths in Christ.

I think it’s important for a young person to have a healthy sense of Christian community. We would call this “Communion of Saints”. None of us has a purely personal journey with Christ, separate from others.

I am not saying you do this, but many Catechists present an indifferent approach to the faith journey, with individual experience as the determinant factor in faith building. “Whatever works for you is good”. This is only true to an extent. We really need to encourage young people to adhere to Christ as expressed by His whole community, not as a purely personal experience. Too much individualism in the faith journey leads us astray.

Everyone’s faith journey is unique, but there is only one way, one truth, one life, and it is found most fully in His community.

 

[guanophore]

I taught Confirmation Classes to 11th graders for years.

Most came because their parents made them come to class and made them receive their Confirmation.

When you have a class room full of people who were forced there, getting through on matters of faith are very difficult.

So, I decided that what they needed most was to understand that there is a difference between living a spiritual life and just going to Church out of a sense of obligation.

I opened their hearts and minds to contemplative prayer. Some didn’t get it, but many did and I was amazed how well they received it. If anything, it made them see that Jesus Christ dwells within, and they could turn to Him anytime they wanted at any place they were in.

How well this sunk in, I have no idea, but I had kids who were more attentive than when I first began teaching, when the focus was religion alone.

Jim

This is awesome, Jim, and even for those who did not respond immediately, I am sure you planted some seeds. I was so discouraged teaching the prescribed curriculum for these kids that I quit. When I do go back to it, your approach is the one I will use.

I think one of the reasons we lose our youth is because our separated brethren are better at meeting them where they are - craving for relationship, belonging, and meaning in life. I think we underestimate our youth, and therefore are not able to capture their passions and direct them into spiritual growth.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Fr Rohr coined it exactly, many people have religion, but not spirituality.

Jim

 

[guanophore]

Fr Rohr coined it exactly, many people have religion, but not spirituality.

Jim

I love Fr. Rohr. He was one of the first people to educate me about the difference between religious education and faith formation.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I love Fr. Rohr. He was one of the first people to educate me about the difference between religious education and faith formation.

Yeah, I like him too.

I subscribe to his daily meditations which I receive in the mail daily.

I’m also in a sharing group on Face Book where his daily meditations are discussed. There isn’t any debates, regardless of where the people are at or how they understand his meditation.

Jim

 

[clem456]

I taught Confirmation Classes to 11th graders for years.

Most came because their parents made them come to class and made them receive their Confirmation.

When you have a class room full of people who were forced there, getting through on matters of faith are very difficult.

So, I decided that what they needed most was to understand that there is a difference between living a spiritual life and just going to Church out of a sense of obligation.

I opened their hearts and minds to contemplative prayer. Some didn’t get it, but many did and I was amazed how well they received it. If anything, it made them see that Jesus Christ dwells within, and they could turn to Him anytime they wanted at any place they were in.

How well this sunk in, I have no idea, but I had kids who were more attentive than when I first began teaching, when the focus was religion alone.

Jim

The roadside is chock full of people who have been encouraged to pursue spirituality instead of a healthy sense of obligation. (not with obligation, instead of).

Most young people (and older people for that matter) are not mature enough to be spiritual without being anchored in a healthy sense of obligation. The young people in our parish who are faithfully active in the parish are in families who have instilled a loving sense of obligation and service in them. They live it together. This spirituality is anything but removed from obligation.

Through the last 40 years, our catechists have been presenting what amounts to spiritual individualism, which is not spirituality at all, but just another form of individualism. (I am not saying you are doing these things, Jim, but this approach prevails in many parishes, and it is not working.)

 

[guanophore]

The roadside is chock full of people who have been encouraged to pursue spirituality instead of a healthy sense of obligation. (not with obligation, instead of).

Most young people (and older people for that matter) are not mature enough to be spiritual without being anchored in a healthy sense of obligation. The young people in our parish who are faithfully active in the parish are in families who have instilled a loving sense of obligation and service in them. They live it together. This spirituality is anything but removed from obligation.

Through the last 40 years, our catechists have been presenting what amounts to spiritual individualism, which is not spirituality at all, but just another form of individualism. (I am not saying you are doing these things, Jim, but this approach prevails in many parishes, and it is not working.)

I agree, it does not work.

But the families you describe here have already done some faith formation with their youth. The biggest problem I think we face is that most of the families do not instill these values in their youth. They drop them at catechism and expect the Church to somehow fulfill their obligation to form them in faith.

 

[clem456]

It is good to note that religion is the virtue of justice due to God. It is our obligation as creatures to recognize God and return his love, even when we don’t desire it for his own sake (perfect love). Growth in virtue leads us closer to perfect love. Spirituality can’t be separated from this, and the lives of the most deeply contemplative saints point this out plainly.

All forms of justice stem from this justice due to God. It is right and just that we worship God, and as we worship him, we reverence all humanity, who are made in the image and likeness of God. “Religion” should lead us to ever deeper love, not be avoided as empty observance.

Religion is not merely a set of empty precepts and ideas.

 

[clem456]

I agree, it does not work.

But the families you describe here have already done some faith formation with their youth. The biggest problem I think we face is that most of the families do not instill these values in their youth. They drop them at catechism and expect the Church to somehow fulfill their obligation to form them in faith.

Right.
We have spent decades proposing indifferent and personalized spiritual experience as the path to knowing Jesus Christ, when he himself is nothing like this.

Spirituality is not purely personal, and it is not indifferent to “religion”.

The families that I see raising active and faithful children have made this solid connection. Religion has come alive for them, there is no war between personal fulfillment, true freedom, religious practice, love, sense of obligation. All these things are part of a healthy and mature person coming to know Jesus Christ.

His own life integrates all these perfectly.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Religion is a response to faith.

Faith is a gift from God. It is His revelation to the indivudual, however that may happen.

You can not give people faith, only God can do that.

Faith is relational and it is out of love that we come to love God and experience his love for us.

We can only teach them the tenets of religion, but how faith and religion come together, must be experience through a relationship with Jesus Christ.

Human beings are both flesh and spiritual. Its why people are drawn to become spiritual. They often reject religion, because its mostly taught by people who are not spiritual, but rigid and following the tenets of their religion out of a conformist sense of obligation.

Bring a person to Jesus Christ, and religion will become alive and enriching.

Bring a person to Church and they might find religion, but the same result would’ve happened if you brought them to a social club which they could feel a part of.

Jim

 

[graciew]

Faith is a gift from God. It is His revelation to the indivudual, however that may happen.

You can not give people faith, only God can do that.

Faith is relational and it is out of love that we come to love God and experience his love for us.

We can only teach them the tenets of religion, but how faith and religion come together, must be experience through a relationship with Jesus Christ.

Human beings are both flesh and spiritual. Its why people are drawn to become spiritual. They often reject religion, because its mostly taught by people who are not spiritual, but rigid and following the tenets of their religion out of a conformist sense of obligation.

Bring a person to Jesus Christ, and religion will become alive and enriching.

Jim

Cool…
Lovely way of transmitting your experience ,Jim.

 

[graciew]

The roadside is chock full of people who have been encouraged to pursue spirituality instead of a healthy sense of obligation. (not with obligation, instead of).

Most young people (and older people for that matter) are not mature enough to be spiritual without being anchored in a healthy sense of obligation. The young people in our parish who are faithfully active in the parish are in families who have instilled a loving sense of obligation and service in them. They live it together. This spirituality is anything but removed from obligation.

Through the last 40 years, our catechists have been presenting what amounts to spiritual individualism, which is not spirituality at all, but just another form of individualism. (I am not saying you are doing these things, Jim, but this approach prevails in many parishes, and it is not working.)

That it works or does not is sometimes a sort of " mystery". Sometimes we go with the same message and style here or there and the impact is different. :shrug:

In any case we cannot " sell" what we do not " buy" ourselves ,don t you think so ?

 

[clem456]

Religion is a response to faith.

Faith is a gift from God. It is His revelation to the indivudual, however that may happen.

You can not give people faith, only God can do that.

Faith is relational and it is out of love that we come to love God and experience his love for us.
We can only teach them the tenets of religion, but how faith and religion come together, must be experience through a relationship with Jesus Christ.

Yes faith is relational. And Jesus Christ is a real person who was incarnate into human flesh, became part of human history, lived a human life, died for us, conquered death by rising, and lives now. This is our kerygma.

He is not merely a spiritual phantasm to be experienced by individuals. He is a real person. Christ himself fulfilled the law. He did not abolish the law. Christ practiced his faith. Christ practiced religion in real and tangible ways.
He was a Jewish person born to a mother and step-father who raised him in his faith.
He prayed.
He read scripture.
He taught others.
He led people to his way, his truth, his life.
He practiced his faith.

Human beings are both flesh and spiritual. Its why people are drawn to become spiritual. They often reject religion, because its mostly taught by people who are not spiritual, but rigid and following the tenets of their religion out of a conformist sense of obligation.

I disagree. People are not drawn because they simply see no compelling reason. There are competing interests for every person’s devotion, and the culture frequently wins. We as catechists are called to give that compelling reason for our faith. We are co-operators in passing on that gift. It doesn’t land in a person’s lap. Christ asks us to help pass it on in a compelling way.

So while the faith is a personal relationship with Christ, we also live in a community. We do have tenets and obligations, just as Christ practiced. He is our faith.

This practice of faith is not purely personal and individual, it is also communal. It looks like something, it sounds like something, it smells like something. The catechist has a teaching mission (hopefully it’s a vocation) to show what this practice looks like in relation to God and others, not merely to ask a person to “feel real deeply” about God.

If a person does not come to faith, maybe the catechist does a poor job of relating the faith. Maybe the heart of the disciple is closed. Maybe the disciple is blind. But it is not right to claim that one who conforms to the faith, or has a deep sense of obligation is not spiritual. A good catechist will pass along that sense of obligation in a way that is appealing. A good catechist certainly does not avoid a sense of obligation. Duty is part of love. Duty, obedience, obligation, do not need to be sterile and dead.

It is interesting that our culture exalts hard work and wealth production but cannot bring itself to treasure the worship of God as a virtue. Both require full, active, and conscious participation, yet the practice of religion is something we are almost ashamed of. As long as my faith is purely personal and does not manifest itself for anyone to see, it is ok. I think anyone can see, this does not bode well for our ability to feed the hungry, heal the sick, shelter the homeless. We have an (dare i say it)…an obligation to do these things. This is the face of love, not experiential feelings. Good luck finding the person who has mastered contemplation to the point where perfect love motivates them every day.

A person who follows and passes on the tenets of the faith *might be *dead in their faith, and might also be passionately alive. It is a stereotype (an old one) to claim that adherence to orthodoxy is a sign of dead faith.

Bring a person to Jesus Christ, and religion will become alive and enriching.

Yes. As above…the question is…who is Jesus Christ?

Bring a person to Church and they might find religion, but the same result would’ve happened if you brought them to a social club which they could feel a part of.

Jim

Really?
The question is: what is the Church, what is religion, and who is Jesus Christ?
If we want to know him, we have to present him in his full person.

 

[clem456]

That it works or does not is sometimes a sort of " mystery". Sometimes we go with the same message and style here or there and the impact is different.

Around our parish we have had many of these mysteries over the years. The biggest mystery of all is why faith is dying in our culture. It remains a mystery I think, because we do not know what mystery is. To have faith is to respond to God’s initiative with assent, trust, obedience, sacrificial love. But the key thing is, it is a response.

Mystery is not a thing to shrug our shoulders at, as though we have no answers. The temptation is for the catechist to say
“It’s a mystery! You must find your own experience of the faith, cause I have no real answers for you”. That is not a real proposal of God’s initiative, and it is certainly not an adequate response. We should be able to articulate the practice of a faith that is compelling and enriching.

It is not the Christian call to blame “mystery”. Mystery is something to be entered into, not pushed away as un-reasonable. If Christ wanted the faith to be unfathomable he would not have taken a human face.

In any case we cannot " sell" what we do not " buy" ourselves ,don t you think so ?

Authenticity. Sure.

 

[graciew]

Around our parish we have had many of these mysteries over the years. The biggest mystery of all is why faith is dying in our culture. It remains a mystery I think, because we do not know what mystery is. To have faith is to respond to God’s initiative with assent, trust, obedience, sacrificial love. But the key thing is, it is a response.

Mystery is not a thing to shrug our shoulders at, as though we have no answers. The temptation is for the catechist to say
“It’s a mystery! You must find your own experience of the faith, cause I have no real answers for you”. That is not a real proposal of God’s initiative, and it is certainly not an adequate response. We should be able to articulate the practice of a faith that is compelling and enriching.

It is not the Christian call to blame “mystery”. Mystery is something to be entered into, not pushed away as un-reasonable. If Christ wanted the faith to be unfathomable he would not have taken a human face.

Authenticity. Sure.

Yes to all.
I wasn 't being dismissive. Just wondering with you all.
It only takes to have a look at our own or our own children.
How different it can be,same parents same message and…?
But see , some events later in life sort of give a meaning to all that was sown and seemed to make no sense or effect at the time.
May God bless those who lovingly transmit their faith and grant them patience !

 

[clem456]

Yes to all.
I wasn 't being dismissive. Just wondering with you all.
It only takes to have a look at our own or our own children.
How different it can be,same parents same message and…?
But see , some events later in life sort of give a meaning to all that was sown and seemed to make no sense or effect at the time.
May God bless those who lovingly transmit their faith and grant them patience !

It is a huge challenge in any age and at any age. It’s not supposed to be easy, evidence the cross. I have this same struggle in my own family, and depending on the day, I can see how the faith of my children was enriched by their religious upbringing, and at other times I feel tremendous guilt for their wandering. The families who are raising solid practicing Christians are not doing it by saying in effect “whatever you choose…”
Quite the opposite, they tell them what they believe, why they believe it, why you should also believe it, and show them what it looks like. None of this need be incompatible with love, rather it should help it flourish in a family.

To the extreme, “when we grew up”, the practice of religion was almost mandated by the culture at large. It was also customary wear a tie to ballgames.
So for many, the practice of religion was another adornment to an outwardly orderly culture. For many, faith was not a complete response to God’s initiative. It was merely and only a cultural obligation in search of a reward. Obligations should serve love, so they should be filled for God’s sake and the sake of others. This of course is not always the motivation. We had this discussion the other day when one of our guys was bemoaning the loss of the good ole days when everyone went to Church. I said “you mean like the 1940’s when 10’s of millions of people were massacred in our orderly world?” The practice of religion is not an inoculation against evil.

We have swung the other way. Because of these negative experiences, for 40 years we have been distancing ourselves from the explicit and substantive practice of religion and wandering off into the other extreme: an individualistic and experiential gnosticism that is afraid to overtly embrace Christ.

I second your prayers for the loving and patient transmission of our faith.

 

[Louie1983]

I taught Confirmation Classes to 11th graders for years.

Most came because their parents made them come to class and made them receive their Confirmation.

When you have a class room full of people who were forced there, getting through on matters of faith are very difficult.

So, I decided that what they needed most was to understand that there is a difference between living a spiritual life and just going to Church out of a sense of obligation.

**I opened their hearts and minds to contemplative prayer. **Some didn’t get it, but many did and I was amazed how well they received it. If anything, it made them see that Jesus Christ dwells within, and they could turn to Him anytime they wanted at any place they were in.

How well this sunk in, I have no idea, but I had kids who were more attentive than when I first began teaching, when the focus was religion alone.

Jim

Hi Jim,

Do you have any links/tips etc regarding this?

I’d like to learn more if not too much trouble.