Catholicism can and must change, Francis forcefully tells Italian church gathering

[frangiuliano115]

Fran, legalism? Really? LOL. I sometimes shake my head over what people worry over, not only for themselves and their own practice of the faith, but examining other people’s known or imagined sins.

I saw the question in ‘Ask an Apologist’: Can I go for a vacation during Advent?

To me, that is in the category of ‘Do I commit a sin if I eat Cheerios for breakfast?’ Has it come to this? Legalism indeed.

And if you add up the number of threads on sexual sins - real or imagined - it would outnumber any other post on this site. I worry if that is what the faith is to people - judging what other people do sexually.

Anyway, bringing this back to the VERY profound words that the Pope spoke, I am so grateful for this man. And he isn’t even my Pope! ‘Christianity is not a closed system.’ Indeed, it cannot be closed - the doors have to be open and the invitation to the Table has to go to one and all, without conditions or judgment.

He is using words that hit hard.

Yes. It gets very silly. I think we need to get beyond all this stuff. When I was a little girl (I’m still a little girl!) I was taught not to eat or drink anything as of midnight when I was to receive communion. Now it’s an hour before. What has changed? God changed His mind? And why even an hour? It takes the body 4 hrs to digest. It’s crazy. Man made legalism distances one from God. Too much emphasis on what I can and cannot DO, and not enough on He who created us and gave us the food we cannot eat before communion!

A poster (I think John Mallory) is asking if truth isn’t immutable.
From a scene in Jesus of Nazareth: Pilot speaking to Jesus at His trial:

“And what IS truth?”

Pilot was staring straight at it.

Fran

 

[guanophore]

Yes. It gets very silly. I think we need to get beyond all this stuff. When I was a little girl (I’m still a little girl!) I was taught not to eat or drink anything as of midnight when I was to receive communion. Now it’s an hour before. What has changed? God changed His mind? And why even an hour? It takes the body 4 hrs to digest. It’s crazy. Man made legalism distances one from God. Too much emphasis on what I can and cannot DO, and not enough on He who created us and gave us the food we cannot eat before communion!

Fran

You are saying that the Church for whom you served as a catechist is “crazy” for promulgating disciplines for the faithful. One has to wonder how many hapless catechumens you have contaminated wtih this attitude.

 

[frangiuliano115]

No, however the understanding of that doctrine on the part of the faithful and the Church as a whole will never remain “static”. That doctrine ‘develops’ is a dogmatic teaching of the Magisterium.

Doctrines are not fossils. They are the living, breathing tradition derived from the Apostles which “advances” and “makes progress” in the life of the Church under the direction of the Holy Spirit.

Development is not the same as “rupture”. If you plant a seed and watch it grow over sixty years, the resulting oak tree will hardly resemble the original ‘seed’ that was planted, yet the seed that was planted sixty years ago would still have been ‘oak’ seed. The latter reality was “hidden” within the seed, it just took many years for it to become apparent and “develop”.

‘Rupture’ would be an oak seed becoming a pine tree. That is impossible.

Read Dei Verbum, from Vatican II:

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651118_dei-verbum_en.html

We are continually advancing in our understanding of divine revelation. As the “centuries succeed one another, the church constantly moves forward” towards a purer and more accurate grasping of divine truth.

Blessed John Henry Newman wrote an influential “classic” on the development of doctrine in the middle of the 19th century. He notes:

newmanreader.org/works/development/

Those who resist legitimate development of doctrine and those who seek to “rupture” it are both acting in opposition to the will of God.

The “conservatives and fundamentalists” that the Holy Father refers to in his speech are characteristic of the former. In trying to “fossilize” and “imprison” the truth under cultural forms tailored for former times that have lost their relevance and resist the “progressing” impulses of the Holy Spirit urging believers forward towards “the complete fulfilment” of the “words of God”, these individuals are holding back the march of the Gospel.

Well put.

Jesus’ intent was to get us close to God, show us how to have a spiritual nature, how to win the battle with satan by transforming our nature into a Godly nature, He said to go forth and baptize - when we get baptized we die to ourselves and the H.S. is infused in us.

I sometimes wonder where the H.S. has wandered off to when I read some posts –

Fran

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

“Forms” in Francis’ mind means forms of thinking.

Did you notice the squirm factor in what he is saying?

Why all this “tender flesh”? I felt like saying “ouch”!

Jesus Christ is personality. Not an abstract that atheists can mock us for inventing.

My brother in Christ is flesh and blood. Not a bod to be manoevred into some form of compliance with something for my “peace of mind”.

The Beatitudes ARE the Spirit of Christ.

The Pope says make a completely new Church. By doing exactly what Jesus and the Apostles said to start with. New. By doing old. Why feel threatened by that.

The soup kitchen is also a metaphor. Its clients are the most assured of us in our practice and belief. The field hospital patients are the most together and smart Catholics.

Us are the new Them.

Then Fran, we will qualify to try to keep the rules and we will keep them well. “My law will be written on your hearts”.

In my life, being Catholic was never about being spoon fed. It always stretched me. God was always like Pope Francis, enigmatic and laconic, working through pictures.

 

[frangiuliano115]

I have to disagree that traditional Catholicism is synomomous with conservatism and fundamentalism. The EF Mass, though not in practice the Tridentine Mass of the 50’s, is a valid form of the Mass and is hardly obsolete. And, in part, it is about the Latin, although non-verbal communication is very significant. The EF Mass remains of cultural significance for many Catholics, and that is why it is observed.

Fundamentalism has never been accepted by the Church. The division between ‘conservative’ and ‘liberal’ Catholics did not exist in the pre-Vatican II era in the way it does today, and there is now often the political associated with these terms when they are used to describe the perspective of a Catholic. The TLM would not seem a good example for making the point, but I don’t believe equating traditional Catholicism with fundamentalism or conservatism could make the point in any case. That debate is now more about legalism.

AH HA. So this is why some posters are upset with me lately. I’ve been talking about legalism because I see so much of it on these threads.

Didn’t know it was a Political Term - Politics does affect everything, doesn’t it? Sad.

Well, not like I’m going to change my position on anything. Which is that we should be concentrating more on the Lord and His teachings than on rules and regulations and judging each other. I though that was Jesus’ role…

(this is not meant specifically for you Thomas White).

Fran

 

[frangiuliano115]

“Forms” in Francis’ mind means forms of thinking.

Did you notice the squirm factor in what he is saying?

Why all this “tender flesh”? I felt like saying “ouch”!

Jesus Christ is personality. Not an abstract that atheists can mock us for inventing.

My brother in Christ is flesh and blood. Not a bod to be manoevred into some form of compliance with something for my “peace of mind”.

The Beatitudes ARE the Spirit of Christ.

The Pope says make a completely new Church. By doing exactly what Jesus and the Apostles said to start with. New. By doing old. Why feel threatened by that.

The soup kitchen is also a metaphor. Its clients are the most assured of us in our practice and belief. The field hospital patients are the most together and smart Catholics.

Us are the new Them.

Then Fran, we will qualify to try to keep the rules and we will keep them well. “My law will be written on your hearts”.

In my life, being Catholic was never about being spoon fed. It always stretched me. God was always like Pope Francis, enigmatic and laconic, working through pictures.

Well AMEN to that!



There are those who expouse regulations and there are those who expouse the love Jesus meant for us to share.

Fran

 

[Brendan]

Casti Conubii and Gaudium et Spes are not an infallible encyclicals.

The teachings are infalliable under the OrdinaryUniversal Magisterium of the Church. That is the most common source for infallible teachings.

The Popes mentioned were using the Encyclicals to restate what is, and always has been, infallibly known to the Church

 

[Brendan]

I mentioned what I know Pope Paul VI said at the time of Humae Vitae, and I don’t need a righteous lecture about Casti Connubii in reply. It is obvious you are going to disagree with whatever is said, and I’m not sure why. But you haven’t been correct about anything yet in your replies to me. I am sorry to have to say it, and I say it with all due respect.

My apologies. My point was that I was simply stating what was already known to Pope Paul when he continued the committee called by Pope John XXIII.

In what why was my post(s) in error

 

[friardchips]

You are, of course, free to have an opinion on your experiences. What I am asking is to help me understand the opinion.

I am still unclear as to exactly HOW your diocese is preventing the parish from doing exactly what Pope Francis is asking for?

I agree that there is probably work being done at the diocesan level, and such work might ease the process of doing similar work in the parishes, but how does it prevent it? Why not START at the parish level, I think that is more along the lines of what Pope Francis is looking for. Would you not agree?

I suppose the answer is to have greater movement of communication between the Pope and the parishes. Without the need for everyone having to go onto the internet. Because reading about things is just that…(please bear in mind that this is just my opinion and I could be wrong)… - reading. The Pope is the Servant of the Church and He not only teaches us via words but also by action. And this is for us to imitate as an imitation of our Creator. The less access we have to the goings on in each diocese, or the more obstacles we have between the Pope and the laity, the less active we become. The only way for the Pope to speak to us so directly is for Bishops to get up close and personal with their parishes. Now my point here: that diocesan offices seem to delegate everything that happens in terms of mission. And they employ people there to delegate. And Bishops go through them. I think this is missing the point. I think diocesan offices need to be for admin purposes mainly. And if they are going to also ‘run’ and organise the active evangelisation of the Church, then they need to do this very much in relation to the parishes of which it, not represents, but works with. This way, the Bishop’s words, which should magnify the dispositions of the Pope, would flow more directly through to the laity and the laity would be further encourage to participate in the mission of the Church. Rather than everything being about gaining necessary qualifications in order to do work for the Church.

I think everyone is called by the action of their baptism to be a part of this mission no matter what their status or situation in life. Instead, the emphasis is always from a kind of Opus Dei viewpoint, where we can all do what we do in our current jobs and this is our mission and this is fine but I think this majorly detracts, when the emphasis is only on this, from the COMMUNITY, of the Church, locally and as a whole.

I think there are many Christians who would like to be active but don’t know how. Though I know the diocese does try and does a lot of good work. I think a start would be for offices to be situated right in the heart of town and cities where the general public live. The diocese itself has to represent also in imitation the humility of our Creator, and, as the Pope said, living and witnessing as a “poor Church”. The only way for people to heed the Pope’s words are to come together as well as going out separately. And this cannot be done with obstacles and big company style professionalism. The gift for mission is for everyone single Christian. Thanks.

 

[friardchips]

…yes, I’d agree that it could start at parish level but it could also be encouraged simultaneously at diocesan level - this is for their benefit too, not just the parishes laity. Community is exactly that. And in the long run would be more fulfilling for everyone. IMO.

 

[Justin_Swanton]

It might be worth reading the comments to Edward Pentin’s post on the subject.

Some of them of course are from the far side, but most of them give a pretty good indication of how the typical Catholic has taken the Pope’s address. Question: is the Holy Father aware of the effect his words are having on the faithful? By ‘faithful’ I mean Catholics who embrace all the Church’s teachings and try to live by them.

 

[friardchips]

It might be worth reading the comments to Edward Pentin’s post on the subject.

Some of them of course are from the far side, but most of them give a pretty good indication of how the typical Catholic has taken the Pope’s address. Question: is the Holy Father aware of the effect his words are having on the faithful? By ‘faithful’ I mean Catholics who embrace all the Church’s teachings and try to live by them.

If he concerned himself with every triviality he’d never get anything done. He is concerned with the truth.

 

[dans0622]

…Maybe Pope Francis cannot change doctrine, but he can appoint some canon lawyers to reframe it.

Hello,

Canon lawyers? I think not.

Dan

 

[Brendan_64]

Me thinks thou protest too much.

You know nothing about me or what I do. You know nothing of whatever Catholic evangelisation organisations I may be involved in. Have you ever stood in a public place amongst a crowd Muslims verbally attacking you for proclaiming your Faith? Or speaking calmly to atheists in a city centre discussing Christ with them? Maybe you have , but strangely enough us ‘trads’ and ‘conservatives’ also do such things. So don’t paint us as people who sit and judge others and peole who don’t ‘go forth’ onto the streets.

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

… Question: is the Holy Father aware of the effect his words are having on the faithful? By ‘faithful’ I mean Catholics who embrace all the Church’s teachings and try to live by them.

Answer:: Yes

Lk 12:35-48
Lk 15:11-32

• taken together

 

[Ridgerunner]

You know nothing about me or what I do. You know nothing of whatever Catholic evangelisation organisations I may be involved in. Have you ever stood in a public place amongst a crowd Muslims verbally attacking you for proclaiming your Faith? Or speaking calmly to atheists in a city centre discussing Christ with them? Maybe you have , but strangely enough us ‘trads’ and ‘conservatives’ also do such things. So don’t paint us as people who sit and judge others and peole who don’t ‘go forth’ onto the streets.

I think the Church needs a variety of people. We must be merciful and cause others to feel the Mercy of Christ and His Church. But we cannot pretend that wrong is right and right is wrong.

Some things in the Church, I think, are cultural. When I was a kid, the elders in the family were Irish on one side and Italian on the other. There was a huge difference in how each treated morality, prayer and the Church. The Irish were relatively rigid in a lot of ways, cognizant of the danger of hell in a vivid sort of way, yet mystical and unearthly in a way. The Italians were more: “I sinned. I confessed. I’m forgiven. It’s over. Let’s drink wine and sing.”

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

You know nothing about me or what I do. You know nothing of whatever Catholic evangelisation organisations I may be involved in. Have you ever stood in a public place amongst a crowd Muslims verbally attacking you for proclaiming your Faith? Or speaking calmly to atheists in a city centre discussing Christ with them? Maybe you have , but strangely enough us ‘trads’ and ‘conservatives’ also do such things. So don’t paint us as people who sit and judge others and peole who don’t ‘go forth’ onto the streets.

I won’t say Neofight doesn’t say you are the goats and Neofight is the sheep (that’s for Neofight to say).

But I at any rate don’t say that and neither does Pope Francis.

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

Hello,

Canon lawyers? I think not.

Dan

I, too, thought the idea was wonderful! :extrahappy:

 

[clem456]

w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20051225_deus-caritas-est.html

Being Christian is not the result of an ethical choice or a lofty idea, but the encounter with an event, a person, which gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction.

There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of what doctrine is. Connect the dots:
Faith is about a person according to Benedict.
A person is an objective “other”. By definition, an other person is not me. God is not me.
Who is God? God identifies himself as I AM Who Am. God is pure unchanging being. While God is a person who relates to us, he is the absolutely unique divine person. In his unchanging nature he is objectively and radically independent of our will and experience. He needs nothing and is moved by nothing. There is a strain of thought expressed here that fails to fully appreciate this reality, but rather wants to subject the Creator and his self expression to human experience.

THE TRANSMISSION OF DIVINE REVELATION
…
75 "Christ the Lord, in whom the entire Revelation of the most high God is summed up, commanded the apostles to preach the Gospel

God’s fullest and final expression of himself is Jesus Christ, the second person of the Trinity.
Scripture expresses this relationship, going so far as to use very personal language:
“Christ is the head of a body”, the Church. The Church is the body united to it’s head.
So, the Church expresses the timeless and unchanging revelation of God himself.
Doctrine is not “experiential”. It does not change with and is not subject to the experience of human beings.

Modes of expression may change in the Church, and the mystery contained in it’s expression may unfold.
But the development of our understanding does not give us license to trample the unique personhood of God by denying who he is and what he reveals through his Church, in favor of our own experience.
We need to simply let the Church speak the person of Christ, and listen without imposing our own desires on it.

 

[cjforJesus]

Pope Francis offered a sweeping summary of his vision for the Catholic Church on Tuesday, telling a gathering of Italian Catholics in Florence that the Church must be open to change while rejecting a “controlling, hard, and prescriptive” style.

“… It is not useful to search for solutions in conservatism or fundamentalism,” the pope said. “We are not living an era of change, but a change of era.”

Christian doctrine, he added, “is not a closed system incapable of generating questions, doubts, queries, but it’s alive, and able to unsettle, animate.” Doctrine, Francis said, “has a face that isn’t rigid, a body that moves and develops, it has tender flesh: that of Jesus Christ.”

cruxnow.com/church/2015/11/10/pope-francis-says-catholics-must-be-open-to-change/?s_campaign=crux:email:daily

I read the article and still do not know what Pope Francis means by “change”.
As far as I can see there is no change of era as we are just becoming increasingly technologically advanced and increasingly indifferent to any moral standards.

The Church does NOT encourage prosyletizing or evangelizing .but more just living your faith and being kind to all. We are supposed to be a beacon of light to the world.We do not hide our lights neither can we force them on anyone.

I think Pope Francis was spot on to attempt reforms and changes to the vatican bank to discourage mafia and others laundering money.
Now it is time for him to oust the masonic and homosexual lobbies he spoke about not too long ago. Those are the changes we need to see.