Catholicism verses Islam differences and similarities

[Sister_Amy]

Sister Amy’s objection is baseless since the Koran verse you both recurrently quote preceded the verses commanding Muslims to kill idolaters and fight all non-Muslims (Surah 9) and was replaced with them.

What does this have to do with our argument? The verses you have brought from the Mosaic Law is impertinent to our discussion because they never impose on Jews the duty of converting all pagans to Judaism through wars.

Besides, you are talking about a LAW (the social code of conduct) given to a specific nation.

It is true that Jesus did not come to destroy the Law and the prophets. However, this does not mean that all Gentiles believing in Jesus will be bound by the precepts of the Mosaic Law. You will find answers to your questions as soon as you find out what Jesus means by fulfilling the Law. If your argument were true, Jesus would never emphasize the contrast between the things said to ancestors of the Jews in the past and the things said to them by Himself. (You heard that it was said, BUT I SAY TO YOU…)

More to the point, Jesus - through His sermon on the mount - endorses the divine origin and authority of the Mosaic Law, but never states that the Law is perfect and crucial for gaining salvation. You should also bear in mind that Jesus addresses the Israelites in that context!

You should read the following quotes from the New Testament and compare it with the notion highlighted in Deuteronomy 13:6-10:

Mark 10:29-30
Jesus answering said: Amen I say to you, there is no man who hath left house or brethren or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my sake and for the gospel, Who shall not receive an hundred times as much, now in this time: houses and brethren and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions: and in the world to come life everlasting.

Matthew 10:34-37
Do not think that I came to send peace upon earth: I came not to send peace, but the sword. For I came to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law And a man’s enemies shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me, is not worthy of me; and he that loveth son or daughter more than me, is not worthy of me.

The commandment of giving priority to faith and loving God at the expense of closest family members in Deuteronomy is kept by Jesus and His followers although faith in Jesus makes His believers swap roles with the pagans in the Deuteronomy. In other words, Moses tells Israelites to KILL their pagan relatives whereas Jesus asks His disciples to BE KILLED by their relatives if necessary.

Perhaps, Angelos, you have forgotten that Jesus was not sent to the Gentiles, but only to the Jews:

Mathews 10:6-7

1. “These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:”
2. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

And also Mathews 15:23-24 where he explicitly said that he is only sent to the Jews (and not to non-jews i.e. Gentiles).

1. But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
2. But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Hi Sister Amy,

A good approach indeed, but can you say this to the Muslims in Saudi Arabia when you come here:

“Doesn’t everyone have the right to hear what Christians really believe? Doesn’t everyone have the right to make a decision for themselves?”

Sam, if your story is true (and not a lie, as I’m led to believe) then it shows that even a so-called Muslim in Saudi Arabia can learn Christianity. So your argument is null and void thanks to your own case study.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Sister Amy’s objection is baseless since the Koran verse you both recurrently quote preceded the verses commanding Muslims to kill idolaters and fight all non-Muslims (Surah 9) and was replaced with them.

Angelos, let me just tell you very plainly yet again, 2:256 was NEVER abrogated, NEVER replaced, not with Surat at-Tawba or any other ayah from the Qur’an.

And in fact Surah 9 (Surat at-Tawba) is proof against you. So please stop spreading this argument which is a complete fabrication, has never been proven or authenticated.

 

[Verisimilitude]

Perhaps, Angelos, you have forgotten that Jesus was not sent to the Gentiles, but only to the Jews.

During His ministry, yes. To fullfill the promise and Scripture. After which He told the Apostles to go to the whole world and preach the Good News. Even during His ministry He showed compassion to non-Jews when He spoke about the Good Samaratin and the woman who touched His cloak to be healed.

This is why all legitimate prophets were Jews. This is why God choose the Jews to bring His Word to mankind. This is why Mohammed is proven to be false.

 

[Angelos]

Perhaps, Angelos, you have forgotten that Jesus was not sent to the Gentiles, but only to the Jews:

Mathews 10:6-7

1. “These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:”
2. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

And also Mathews 15:23-24 where he explicitly said that he is only sent to the Jews (and not to non-jews i.e. Gentiles).

1. But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
2. But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

I admire your progress in Islamic mentality. Like most Muslims you pervert our scripture to prove baseless Islamic arguments against us.

While quoting a verse from the New Testament next time, please remember the significance of the notion of context instead of misrepresenting our tenets. The verses you quoted come from the Gospel of Matthew, who obviously addressed Jewish audience and consequently emphasized Israel’s election by God more than the other Evangelists. By saying that He was sent to the lost sheep of Israel, Jesus wanted to hammer into the minds of Israelites the contrast between the faith of the ones chosen by God and of the Gentiles.

Besides,. Jesus sends His apostles to preach the Gospel to everyone after His resurrection:

Matthew 28:19-20 **
Going therefore, teach ye all nations**: baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.

Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world, for a testimony to all nations: and then shall the consummation come.

It is really saddening to see you deliberately ignore the verses above, which definitely debunk your claims.

 

[Angelos]

Angelos, let me just tell you very plainly yet again, 2:256 was NEVER abrogated, NEVER replaced, not with Surat at-Tawba or any other ayah from the Qur’an.

And in fact Surah 9 (Surat at-Tawba) is proof against you. So please stop spreading this argument which is a complete fabrication, has never been proven or authenticated.

If there is no ABROGATION; there is CONTRADICTION in your scripture.

There is no use repeating that Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance on the basis of a comparatively old verse in the Koran when a modern verse in the same Koran commands Muslims to fight non-Muslims and kill all the idolaters!

 

[Booklover]

Perhaps, Angelos, you have forgotten that Jesus was not sent to the Gentiles, but only to the Jews:

Mathews 10:6-7

1. “These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:”
2. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

And also Mathews 15:23-24 where he explicitly said that he is only sent to the Jews (and not to non-jews i.e. Gentiles).

1. But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
2. But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

I’m not going to reply to this again because it’s been refuted ad nauseam countless times!

Muslims claim that Islam and the Quran are for all peoples, but how can a book that calls the unbelievers “the worst of creation” plus other derogatory terms such as “sons of apes and pigs”, be written for everyone? The Quran is written only for the followers of Muhammad and shows the writer to be a very bitter person who couldn’t stand any opposition.

Vickie

 

[R_not]

I have nothing to do with any Jihadist. They are misguided about Islam same you are misguided about Christianity. You had posted the following in post #17:

Now i have proved to you that if there is any violence in the Quran it is against the enemies of humanity, not against any innocent person. So you have failed to make any point against Islam.

First of all, if you believed that there were infidels that are innocent, there would be an outcry of the masses of ‘moderates’ against what Hezbollah, Hamas and the Palestinians are doing to Israel daily - lobbing bombs and aiming for children’s schools, etc.

Not a peep, and instead those who die killing Jews are held up as martyrs for their faith.

And with so many muslim charities that have been caught financing these terrorists - we see that the masses of ‘moderates’ do indeed support the jihadists who are doing the violence. they were ordered by mohammed to support these violent jihadists because mohammed knew that many would not be willing to kill - or do the other dispicable things he asks of them to do for allah. And then he said that allah would reward them for doing this: koran 57:10-11, 2:262

And then he distorts good deeds with waging war and smiting necks of the unbelievers, koran 47:4. mohammed basically says that allah would have done the deed, but is testing his followers to do his killing (sort of like a mafia godfather!)

So, who is more honest - the jihadist who uses the koran to excuse their torture and killing of infidels? Or the ‘moderate’ who deceives us by saying they are not waging jihad when they are using the koran’s miniscule number of peaceful verses to try to prove that islam is peaceful and benign?

too often we are learning that muslims distort the meaning of words to their own benefit. ‘the enemies of humanity’? Well, to me that is telling me, when it comes from a muslim, that infidels are the enemies and humanity are muslims. And we all know that peace in islam means either death, conversion or subjugation (dhimmitude) of infidels. The list goes on - I am compiling a list of words that muslims twist the meanings of and refer to them if in doubt.

All one has to do is read the koran and hadiths - which are not my words, but coming from islam - to tell me what I need to know to counter what muslims try to tell me via da’wa.

 

[planten]

If there is no ABROGATION; there is CONTRADICTION in your scripture.

There is no use repeating that Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance on the basis of a comparatively old verse in the Koran when a modern verse in the same Koran commands Muslims to fight non-Muslims and kill all the idolaters!

Sorry angelos, there is no order to kill the non-believers. There were hostile disbelievers in those days who were coming from 500 miles to attack madinah. It is necessary to fight such people. They are called Kafirs in Arabic language.

Any person who will try to fight the church will also be kafir. i.e. enemy of the truth and religion. It is only such bad people that the Muslims are allowed to fight. But no one is allowed to fight any peaceful person.

There is no abrogation of the verses of the Quran. But there could be abrogation of the verses of the bible by the verses of the Quran. So the old revelation can stand abrogated by the new and latest testament. Allah does not abrogate any verse nor does he make it to be forgotten (but) He brings another one better than that or equal to that.

That applies to earlier verses too. In Quran there is no abrogated verse. We have checked it thoroughly. Unless you present the abroagtor and abrogated verse, there is no ground to believe any such thing.

 

[abirdrrl]

Islam is the only non-Christian faith, which makes it an article of faith to believe in Jesus (peace be upon him).

The Baha’i faith is a non-Christian faith which professes Jesus to be a manifestation of God as well.

 

[R_not]

If there is no ABROGATION; there is CONTRADICTION in your scripture.

There is no use repeating that Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance on the basis of a comparatively old verse in the Koran when a modern verse in the same Koran commands Muslims to fight non-Muslims and kill all the idolaters!

Basically they use the koran to fit their needs. Somewhere I read an article on that - but I can’t find it right now. When they want to wage jihad - they use the newer, violent verses that did indeed abrogate the older verses. But, those older verses have so many newer verses that refuting them is easy. Notice they use the same ones over and over again.

The only thing I can say is that their own koran and hadiths refute what they say about islam. Their own history (well, not their version of ‘turnspeak’) refutes what they say about islam. And that history is being written to this day - and it ain’t pretty.

They are waging jihad in our lands - it is called a stealth jiihad. Infiltrating, building up their numbers and doing things like what they do on this site - only to our young. I have written about this on other blogs which shows how the MSA (muslims student association) which they infiltrated our colleges with is directly associated with the muslim brotherhood and it is called ‘The Project’. Those papers of the muslim brotherhoods are for us to view now and to see how they are infiltrating our schools and states their goals very clearly.

here are the websites:
**Here is information on the Muslim Brotherhood’s ‘The Project’ - an article about how/when this information was found:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID={67736123-6864-4205-B51E-BCBDEF45FCDE}

Here is part two of the article which has “The Project”'s document in full:
frontpagemag.com/articles/Read.aspx?GUID=61829F93-7A81-4654-A2E8-F0A5E6DD3DC4

Here is a video about the Muslim Brotherhood: youtube.com/watch?v=tx0lqVZOnHw&feature=related

And here is an article to show the tie between the Muslim Brotherhood and the Muslim Student Association:
studentsforacademicfreedom.org/news/2598/the-muslim-students-association-and-the-jihad-network**

 

[Sailka]

Actually, Protestantism is almost a clone of Islam. Muslums are Sola Scriptura, believing the koran is the sole rule of faith. They believe each individual can make personal interpretation and the leader of every congregation is the final authority. And, finally, there is no official authority on the correct interpretation of Scripture.

                                                                                                                                                                                          A  couple of thoughts:
                                                                                           (1) It CAN be a sin, to  deride Any other Faith, culture, etc, by a Catholic.      Heard that taught even in RCIA  I monitored..  



                                                                                                                                                                                 Catechism #'s 844 (also Romans 1:21,25), 843, 841, 842                                                                                              LIST]

                                                                                  :thumbsup:                                                                               
                                                                                           (2)  THE most knowledgeable Biblically of the New Testament are the Catholic Church, because Our Founding Fathers wrote the New Testament, with the Lord as the Author, as is known. We were there At the  Writing.  (And the Catholic Church does not spin anything, Living the Truth of Our  Lord.                                 


                                                                                                                                                                                 (3)  One Earns the Respect one Gives.

 

[abirdrrl]

Muslums are Sola Scriptura, believing the koran is the sole rule of faith.

What about the hadith?

 

[Booklover]

Sorry angelos, there is no order to kill the non-believers. There were hostile disbelievers in those days who were coming from 500 miles to attack madinah. It is necessary to fight such people. They are called Kafirs in Arabic language.

All unbelievers are considered “kaffirs” and unclean by Islam and Muslims!

Any person who will try to fight the church will also be kafir. i.e. enemy of the truth and religion. It is only such bad people that the Muslims are allowed to fight. But no one is allowed to fight any peaceful person.

Non Muslims are being killed every day in the name of Islam!

There is no abrogation of the verses of the Quran. But there could be abrogation of the verses of the bible by the verses of the Quran. So the old revelation can stand abrogated by the new and latest testament. Allah does not abrogate any verse nor does he make it to be forgotten (but) He brings another one better than that or equal to that.

The Quran abrogates nothing in the Bible nor does it have anything to do with it. The Quran is simply the words of Muhammad to his gullible followers.

That applies to earlier verses too. In Quran there is no abrogated verse. We have checked it thoroughly. Unless you present the abroagtor and abrogated verse, there is no ground to believe any such thing.

Here you’re just parroting the same things that Angelos and others have refuted many times!

Vickie

 

[planten]

I’m not going to reply to this again because it’s been refuted ad nauseam countless times!

Muslims claim that Islam and the Quran are for all peoples, but how can a book that calls the unbelievers “the worst of creation” plus other derogatory terms such as “sons of apes and pigs”, be written for everyone? The Quran is written only for the followers of Muhammad and shows the writer to be a very bitter person who couldn’t stand any opposition.

Vickie

It is true that Quran is for all people for all ages. The prophet Muhamamd is a messenger for all mankind. That is written in the Quran. So it cannot be denied. If you produce any verse from the bible that bible is for all times or that Jesus is a messenger for all mankind then we will believe that too. But there is no such thing in the bible.
That language you have presented suited some very nasty people of that time. It is not written in the Quran for you or for any peaceful person. We see many abusive words in the bible from John the baptist and from Jesus too. But we never complain. Jesus called the people a wicked generation, sons of serpents, (This is an evil generation Luke 11:29) etc. It is in the bible, how badly he addressed some of the people. That is accusing the whole generation, not few men. The whole lot of them. More, Ye serpents, Ye generation of vipers (mathew 23;33).
But we do not complain. But you are complaining about the harsh words found in the quran. That is not fair.

 

[R_not]

It is true that Quran is for all people for all ages. The prophet Muhamamd is a messenger for all mankind. That is written in the Quran. So it cannot be denied. If you produce any verse from the bible that bible is for all times or that Jesus is a messenger for all mankind then we will believe that too. But there is no such thing in the bible.
That language you have presented suited some very nasty people of that time. It is not written in the Quran for you or for any peaceful person. We see many abusive words in the bible from John the baptist and from Jesus too. But we never complain. Jesus called the people a wicked generation, sons of serpents, (This is an evil generation Luke 11:29) etc. It is in the bible, how badly he addressed some of the people. That is accusing the whole generation, not few men. The whole lot of them. More, Ye serpents, Ye generation of vipers (mathew 23;33).
But we do not complain. But you are complaining about the harsh words found in the quran. That is not fair.

Actually, calling muslims serpents is not even mentioned in the Bible. While the koran explicitely calls us monkeys and apes. You, and others, are infering that it is calling you a serpent. That is mild. What the koran explicitely calls for is our death, or subjugation, if we reject islam. the Bible does not call for your death or subjugation.

Big difference.

No where have I, or anyone that I know, gotten a lesson in calling muslims serpents when I was in any grade in any school. No where have I gotten a sermon in church to call muslims serpents.

But the reverse is not true as we have been finding out - muslim schools in Michigan, Minnesota, Virginia, L.A., etc are being found with hate literature against us all the time. They just blatently do it in their countries with no one bothering them about it.

the reference in the bible does indeed say ‘serpent’ but it is not something that we pick up and just start calling others - instead we are aware that islam is not as peaceful nor benign as its adherents are trying to jam down our throats. We are alerted to its deceptions.

 

[planten]

What about the hadith?

The Hadith is a writing by men like the bible. It is as good as the bible. Bible being the biography of jesus, the Hadith is a record of the sayings and doings of Muhammad. Hadith may be more reliable than bible (NT) because it is recent and it is researched quite a lot. But still it cannot be anything near the quran. The quran is the word of God.

Muslims read the hadith and the bible, making use of both those books. There are many useful, good things in both Hadith and the bible. No doubt.

 

[R_not]

The Hadith is a writing by men like the bible. It is as good as the bible. Bible being the biography of jesus, the Hadith is a record of the sayings and doings of Muhammad. Hadith may be more reliable than bible (NT) because it is recent and it is researched quite a lot. But still it cannot be anything near the quran. The quran is the word of God.

Muslims read the hadith and the bible, making use of both those books. There are many useful, good things in both Hadith and the bible. No doubt.

Actually, the hadith only the words of mohammed who thought he was a god. There is no message other than ‘follow me because I said to follow me’. No matter how egregious the deeds that mohammed did or what he said - muslims just follow him.

In the koran there is no consistency. If it were the word of a god, then there would at least be consistency. Instead it is the words of a guy who had a lot of problems - paranoia, anger, lust, hatred, etc. And it is reflected in the koran.

 

[Sister_Amy]

I’m not going to reply to this again because it’s been refuted ad nauseam countless times!

I feel the same way sometimes.

Muslims claim that Islam and the Quran are for all peoples, but how can a book that calls the unbelievers “the worst of creation” plus other derogatory terms such as “sons of apes and pigs”, be written for everyone? The Quran is written only for the followers of Muhammad and shows the writer to be a very bitter person who couldn’t stand any opposition.

Vickie

Who is called the “sons of apes and pigs” in the Qur’an? Or are you making something up to smear Islam? (I’ll assume it’s an honest mistake on your part.) Of course nobody is called that in the Qur’an.

The Qur’an of course is for all of mankind, and it is addressed to all of mankind… the very first command in the Qur’an is this:

2:21 O mankind! worship your Lord, Who hath created you and those before you, so that ye may ward off (evil).

 

[Verisimilitude]

The Qur’an of course is for all of mankind, and it is addressed to all of mankind… the very first command in the Qur’an is this:

Can you tell me of a verse in the Quran that is specific in calling for Muslims being peacefull to a non-Muslim?