Catholicism verses Islam differences and similarities

[Sailka]

sister amy, thank you for responding.

i have taken the beginning of a section of the quran that i am having trouble with.

**The Immunity

[9.1] (This is a declaration of) immunity by Allah and His Apostle towards those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement.

[9.2] So go about in the land for four months and know that you cannot weaken Allah and that Allah will bring disgrace to the unbelievers.

[9.3] And an announcement from Allah and His Apostle to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah and His Apostle are free from liability to the idolaters; therefore if you repent, it will be better for you, and if you turn back, then know that you will not weaken Allah; and announce painful punishment to those who disbelieve.

[9.4] Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you, so fulfill their agreement to the end of their term; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).

[9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate**, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

[9.6] And if one of the idolaters seek protection from you, grant him protection till he hears the word of Allah, then make him attain his place of safety; this is because they are a people who do not know.

[9.7] How can there be an agreement for the idolaters with Allah and with His Apostle; except those with whom you made an agreement at the Sacred Mosque? So as long as they are true to you, be true to them; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).

what if a nonbeliever wants to make an agreement with a muslim that each party shall leave the other in peace, but does not want to pay the tax? are they to be killed for that?

                                                                                                                                                                                          That was  for the years 700's, when other tribes tried to  conquer, kill all first Muslims.                  And only  some Strict  Shariah Law localities Might enforce such a tax. Unlikelly in modern world.    And  Any  killing  except in combat  or by Islamic Court order is forbidden.                                                                    A knowldegeable Catholic, who Loves, Cherishes The Church.  Tony.

 

[Sister_Amy]

care to ask about this for me? thank you.

ummmmmmmm

 

[Booklover]

Vicky, Muhammad was simply not “the” example of peace…what some might find as “legitimate”, others may not…even if you think you are innocent yet from Islamic perspective you are not, it’s subjective…and no authority in Islam so discussing violence in Islam is futile…yes Muhamad killed and raided and slaughtered even poets who wrote against him and his followers conqurered (futuhat) as soon as he died and killed and stoned and subdued others, but from their perspective, it is “legitimate”…anything might fall under “attacking Islam” and since there is no authority, it’s a chaos.

Exactly!

Vickie

 

[Verisimilitude]

And yet you said every other verse talks about killing… maybe your Qur’an is missing most of it’s chapters… you should look into getting a refund.

Slight exageration. The rest of the Quran is platitudes upon Mohammed, incorrect history, and simple repetition that contradicts itself. You should get a refund as well.

You’re avoiding the question. If one country is attacked by another, shouldn’t it be allowed to defend itself?

I almost never avoid a question asked of me. I said of course they can defend itself if attacked. I then asked if Egypt and othe rnations attacked Arabia.

 

[inJESUS]

ummmmmmmm

any problem if you ask your sheikh about it?

 

[Sailka]

Slight exageration. The rest of the Quran is platitudes upon Mohammed, incorrect history, and simple repetition that contradicts itself. You should get a refund as well.

I almost never avoid a question asked of me. I said of course they can defend itself if attacked. I then asked if Egypt and othe rnations attacked Arabia.

                                                                                           Yes, but  who attacked Iraq, and have threatened to  attack  Iran,  and North Korea, etc?  Not a Catholic. Not someone who knows international Law or  how Not to  start Big Problems, or how to  defend the USA   from 9/11  On 9/11 < Air Marshalls,  Warning FAA, and retoring air marashalls to  Work.   Not a regular christian either.  Not a veteran...................Etc, Etc

 

[inJESUS]

                                                                                                                                                                                          That was  for the years 700's, when other tribes tried to  conquer, kill all first Muslims.                  And only  some Strict  Shariah Law localities Might enforce such a tax. Unlikelly in modern world.    And  Any  killing  except in combat  or by Islamic Court order is forbidden.                                                                    A knowldegeable Catholic, who Loves, Cherishes The Church.  Tony.

paying the jizya is obligatory under sharia law for non-Muslims. If one is to consider it only as taxes, ok…but what about its theological implications of degrading non-Muslims who must pay it out of humiliation? if people refuse to pay because of this, what happens? is this considered a threat to the ummah and a case for war?

What if non-Muslims refuse to pay it

 

[Sister_Amy]

any problem if you ask your sheikh about it?

I’m embarrassed to ask him, actually. Whenever I ask him questions from here he just kind of looks at me… weird.

 

[inJESUS]

what about the futuhat (wars of conquests)? were all the conquered lands back then fighting Muslims? is that why the caliphs started conquests?

 

[inJESUS]

I’m embarrassed to ask him, actually. Whenever I ask him questions from here he just kind of looks at me… weird.

weird …
forget it thank you anyway .

 

[Sister_Amy]

sister amy, thank you for responding.

i have taken the beginning of a section of the quran that i am having trouble with.

I will try to answer your questions… please be patient with me. This chapter is called At-Tawba, which actually means ‘The Repentance’ It starts out talking about people with whom the Muslims had a treaty, and the people who violated the treaty.

**The Immunity

[9.1] (This is a declaration of) immunity by Allah and His Apostle towards those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement.

[9.2] So go about in the land for four months and know that you cannot weaken Allah and that Allah will bring disgrace to the unbelievers.

[9.3] And an announcement from Allah and His Apostle to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah and His Apostle are free from liability to the idolaters; therefore if you repent, it will be better for you, and if you turn back, then know that you will not weaken Allah; and announce painful punishment to those who disbelieve.

[9.4] Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you, so fulfill their agreement to the end of their term; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).

[9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

[9.6] ,And if one of the idolaters seek protection from you, grant him protection till he hears the word of Allah, then make him attain his place of safety; this is because they are a people who do not know.

[9.7] How can there be an agreement for the idolaters with Allah and with His Apostle; except those with whom you made an agreement at the Sacred Mosque? ,So as long as they are true to you, be true to them; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).**

Please re-examine the sections that I have highlighted in red.

what if a nonbeliever wants to make an agreement with a muslim that each party shall leave the other in peace, but does not want to pay the tax? are they to be killed for that?

The tax is not for the people who have an agreement (i.e., treaty) with the, Muslims, it is for the people who are being ruled by the Muslims.

 

[R_not]

                                                                                           Yes, but  who attacked Iraq, and have threatened to  attack  Iran,  and Nirth Korea, etc?  Not a Catholic. Noty someone who knows international Law or  how Not to  start Big Problems.  Not a regular christian either.  Not a veteran...................ETc, Etc

I guess all the threats from those countries’ leaders mean nothing to you.

Iran is threatening to wipe Israel off the map. North Korea has threatened all of its neighbors including us and has been working with Syria on nuclear weapons - as we learned after Israel wiped out Syria’s bomb facilities (thank goodness!).

with Iran supporting Hezbollah who lobs bombs into Israel daily and will target children - yeah, I know - muslims don’t think any infidels are innocents. As for Hussein, papers were opened about a year ago that showed his ties to Al Qaeda (Hussein, and al Qaeda are tied to the muslim brotherhood also), and he violated 17 UN sanctions, blah blah blah - no matter how many times we talk about Iraq - if one doesn’t want to hear it they won’t. It gets tiring.

I guess according to you we should just lay down and let the thugs of the Middle East and communist nations just kill us all.

What I figure is that muslims would implode if the world was islamicized. Who would they hate? I guess the muslim women really better worry if that happens - they would focus more on them. And we saw how fundamentalists treat their women - the Taliban is a blaring example. ‘Honor killings’ gone wild! I guess it could be a name of a TV series. Do you need youtube, or other, web addresses to prove what I am saying?

I guess you are also proving my point about the so called ‘moderate’ muslim if I have to explain the problems with N. Korea, Iraq, and Iran.

 

[Verisimilitude]

                                                                                           Yes, but  who attacked Iraq, and have threatened to  attack  Iran,  and North Korea, etc?  Not a Catholic. Not someone who knows international Law or  how Not to  start Big Problems, or how to  defend the USA   from 9/11  On 9/11 < Air Marshalls,  Warning FAA, and retoring air marashalls to  Work.   Not a regular christian either.  Not a veteran...................Etc, Etc

Believe me, I have serious issues with all of which you speak. I use my faith to support ending the war as unjust, and the taxes taken from Americans to fund it. I argue with other Catholics who support it, but that is a deflection to the topic at hand. The Catholic Church does not support those things. Mohammed and his followers did when attacking Egypt, Persia…

 

[R_not]

The tax is not for the people who have an agreement (i.e., treaty) with the, Muslims, it is for the people who are being ruled by the Muslims.

Since muslim treaties are not to last longer than 10 years and must be broken as soon as the muslims are rearmed/regrouped - hudna - I would say that once again a muslim has proven the points that we are making. all that is mohammed’s teachings. He learned it from his first battles against the Quraysh. And we see the example of how muslims keep peace treaties - look at all the peace treaties they have made with Israel. Some barely lasted a week - some barely lasted a day or two.

What they are not liking is that we know about their ‘peace treaties’, and other words that they have alternate meanings.

 

[Sailka]

what about the futuhat (wars of conquests)? were all the conquered lands back then fighting Muslims? is that why the caliphs started conquests?

                                                                                                                                                                                          See # 61  and 77 above.   Weaklings like  Hiler, Tojo, etc, etc  work up false reasons, Like Religion,   to do their thing.     The Vatican  Did No (Zero)  Crusades, or problems therefrom. Only  Individual Leaders  did, Mostly for Their own selfish agenda's.   Ever heard of  Iraq, Iran, and the false hype  about "THEM"?  Remember  One non-veteran prexy  call for    a  2002  "New Crusade"    against  Iraq,  Islam  to preserve us   and  Central Park  from WMD?    And citing it as God's message to him?    OK??

 

[Angelos]

I will try to answer your questions… please be patient with me. This chapter is called At-Tawba, which actually means ‘The Repentance’ It starts out talking about people with whom the Muslims had a treaty, and the people who violated the treaty.

**The Immunity

[9.1] (This is a declaration of) immunity by Allah and His Apostle towards those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement.

[9.2] So go about in the land for four months** and know that you cannot weaken Allah and that Allah will bring disgrace to the unbelievers.

[9.3] And an announcement from Allah and His Apostle to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah and His Apostle are free from liability to the idolaters; therefore if you repent, it will be better for you, and if you turn back, then know that you will not weaken Allah; and announce painful punishment to those who disbelieve.

[9.4] Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you, so fulfill their agreement to the end of their term; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).

[9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

[9.6] ,And if one of the idolaters seek protection from you, grant him protection till he hears the word of Allah, then make him attain his place of safety; this is because they are a people who do not know.

[9.7] How can there be an agreement for the idolaters with Allah and with His Apostle; except those with whom you made an agreement at the Sacred Mosque? ,So as long as they are true to you, be true to them; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).

Please re-examine the sections that I have highlighted in red.

The tax is not for the people who have an agreement (i.e., treaty) with the, Muslims, it is for the people who are being ruled by the Muslims.

According to these verses, it is Allah asking Mohammad and Muslims to break their covenant with idolaters after the sacred months! The verse tells idolaters to be free in the land for four months only (until the end of their agreement!), no more no less! After that time, idolaters will face either Islamic attacks (mass murders) or embrace Islam to survive! No alternative!!!

This explains how come a religion like Islam could get so many believers in such a short time!’

 

[inJESUS]

                                                                                                                                                                                          See # 61  and 77 above.   Weaklings like  Hiler, Tojo, etc, etc  work up false reasons, Like Religion,   to do their thing.     The Vastcan  Did No (Zero)  Crusades, or problens thetrefrom. Only  Individual Leaders  did, Mostly for Their own selfisgh agenda's.   Ever heard of  Iraq, Iran, and the false hype  about them?  Remember  One non-verteran prexy  call for    a  2002  "New Crusade"    against  Iraq, to prserve us   and  Central Park  from WMD?    And citing it as God's message to him?    OK??

the caliphes were on an agenda you say?

 

[jen_fla]

                                                                                                                                                                                          That was  for the years 700's, when other tribes tried to  conquer, kill all first Muslims. And only  some Strict  Shariah Law localities Might enforce such a tax. Unlikelly in modern world.    And  Any  killing  except in combat  or by Islamic Court order is forbidden.                                                                    A knowldegeable Catholic, who Loves, Cherishes The Church.  Tony.

thanks tony. but i have heard over and over that allah’s word is eternal in the quran. where can one confirm that that was only for the years 700’s?

 

[umerazad]

According to these verses, it is Allah asking Mohammad and Muslims to break their covenant with idolaters after the sacred months! The verse tells idolaters to be free in the land for four months only (until the end of their agreement!), no more no less! After that time, idolaters will face either Islamic attacks (mass murders) or embrace Islam to survive! No alternative!!!

This explains how come a religion like Islam could get so many believers in such a short time!’

Its amusing to see that you missed the highlighted portion of verse 5 and 6 . I guess, I am beginning to like you due to your one-dimensional way of thinking …

Cheers,

 

[R_not]

I should add this to my post about muslim ‘peace treaties’

Bukhari:V7B67N427 “The Prophet said, ‘If I take an oath and later find something else better than that, then I do what is better and expiate my oath.’”