Catholicism verses Islam differences and similarities

[Sailka]

thanks tony. but i have heard over and over that allah’s word is eternal in the quran. where can one confirm that that was only for the years 700’s?

                                                                                                                                                                                         The Koran was Written in the 700's timefram of War to Survive By Muslims.     Easy to understand in context of the times.    Like our Old Testament.

 

[R_not]

                                                                                                                                                                                          See # 61  and 77 above.   Weaklings like  Hiler, Tojo, etc, etc  work up false reasons, Like Religion,   to do their thing.     The Vatican  Did No (Zero)  Crusades, or problems therefrom. Only  Individual Leaders  did, Mostly for Their own selfish agenda's.   Ever heard of  Iraq, Iran, and the false hype  about "THEM"?  Remember  One non-veteran prexy  call for    a  2002  "New Crusade"    against  Iraq,  Islam  to preserve us   and  Central Park  from WMD?    And citing it as God's message to him?    OK??

It seems your mohammed did the same thing that Hitler and Tojo did - worked up false reasons, like religion, to do their thing.

It is why islam is so insidious and why muslims get away with a lot because they come under the guise of islam being a ‘religion’ when in fact it is a political movement that uses religion as a front and god as a weapon. It is why so many have a hard time believing that a religion could be so bad. We are familiar with religions trying to raise men and women to a higher level, while islam is only concerned with the base, human lusts. even its heaven is nothing but a physical, lusty paradise - especially if the muslim has killed infidels to get there.

And here is the kicker - what do they give to the muslim women who have blown themselves up for allah? Eternal virginity?! Or what? Not too much in it for their women.

 

[inJESUS]

R-Not, what do you think about what i wrote:

Muhammad was simply not “the” example of peace…what some might find as “legitimate”, others may not…even if you think you are innocent yet from Islamic perspective you are not, it’s subjective…and no authority in Islam so discussing violence in Islam is futile…yes Muhamad killed and raided and slaughtered even poets who wrote against him and his followers conqurered (futuhat) as soon as he died and killed and stoned and subdued others, but from their perspective, it is “legitimate”…anything might fall under “attacking Islam” and since there is no authority, it’s a chaos.

 

[jen_fla]

                                                                                                                                                                                         The Koran was Written in the 700's timefram of War to Survive By Muslims.     Easy to understand in context of the times.    Like our Old Testament.

no, it is not easy to understand like our Old Testament, because we have the Church to guide us to make sense of the timeline and context of history.

so is this an “eternal” message that only applies to times of war or am i to assume that since we are in the year 2008 that the quran has gone bad due to expiration date? please explain how a muslim can KNOW that that passage does not apply now.

thank you.
jen

 

[inJESUS]

The tax is not for the people who have an agreement (i.e., treaty) with the, Muslims, it is for the people who are being ruled by the Muslims.

tax per se might not be the problem. It is paying it with humilation the problem…it is punitive in nature. So let’s say Muslims made a conquest of x land, and conquered it and asked people to convert so they refused, so they ask them to pay jizya with humiliation, and they refuse…all the while not attacking Muslims and living peacefuly…what now? are they seen as “innocent” or “ennemy of Allah”?

 

[Sailka]

It seems your mohammed did the same thing that Hitler and Tojo did - worked up false reasons, like religion, to do their thing.

It is why islam is so insidious and why muslims get away with a lot because they come under the guise of islam being a ‘religion’ when in fact it is a political movement that uses religion as a front and god as a weapon. It is why so many have a hard time believing that a religion could be so bad. We are familiar with religions trying to raise men and women to a higher level, while islam is only concerned with the base, human lusts. even its heaven is nothing but a physical, lusty paradise - especially if the muslim has killed infidels to get there.

And here is the kicker - what do they give to the muslim women who have blown themselves up for allah? Eternal virginity?! Or what? Not too much in it for their women.

                                                                                                                                                                                          Your  words, thoughts are virtual Opposite of reality, and  teachings of Mother Church.  Islam Is  very demanding True  Religion, that   has   killing and conquest  as Opposite of its teachings and Koran.  
                                                                                                                                                                                          And Islam teaches that killing Anyone not in Combat or self defense   is Worst  crime, sending the offender to Hell.    
                                                                                                                                                                                          It appears you have been massivelly  hyped.

Know why terrorists do their act? Because is Only way the weak can try to “message” the strongest military.
Know Why Bib Laden Warned USA to leave Saudia and middle east? Because we, and especially Isreal, were in military or civilian control of /Muslim Territory and replacing their culture of modesty/respect with our Materialistic and selfish own culture, armed forces.
Know Which Muslim women blow selves up? A Very few, who had relatives killed by us or Isrealis. Time Magazine had an article severl years ago about Muslim suicide terrorists. One was 21 yo University student, whose 12 year old brother had been shot on site, during Isreali Occupation after their conquest in Gaza. the boy had been out desperatelly trying to get food, especially water, to their Family, who were forbiddenn to leave their house, and water cut off, during summer. The 21 yo Student blew herself up in upscale young adults bar. OK? People don’t blow selves up for money. Religious 'Spinnerrs" both sides inflame their side, the Muslim side using Religion, Our side using the (false) threat of islam.
Please see # 61 and #77 above for details of reality.

 

[Sailka]

no, it is not easy to understand like our Old Testament, because we have the Church to guide us to make sense of the timeline and context of history.

so is this an “eternal” message that only applies to times of war or am i to assume that since we are in the year 2008 that the quran has gone bad due to expiration date? please explain how a muslim can KNOW that that passage does not apply now.

thank you.
jen

                                                                                                                                                                                          The Koran has not gone bad. Like the Bible has not gone bad. Only the Readings/Teachings  from both have  been Used by Some with own  Agendas.      And depends  'what one reads/sees' in each.       Seeing is  in the  eyer of the beholder.  And conditions get  severelly bad  in  some  areas, like   Gaza, the  occupied Palestinian lands, Iraq, etc.   Extreme conditions result in   extreme   desperation  actions  we must understand, to solve the problems.  Big Problens are never  solved by  Force.

 

[Postmodern]

I guess all the threats from those countries’ leaders mean nothing to you.

Iran is threatening to wipe Israel off the map. North Korea has threatened all of its neighbors including us and has been working with Syria on nuclear weapons - as we learned after Israel wiped out Syria’s bomb facilities (thank goodness!).

with Iran supporting Hezbollah who lobs bombs into Israel daily and will target children - yeah, I know - muslims don’t think any infidels are innocents. As for Hussein, papers were opened about a year ago that showed his ties to Al Qaeda (Hussein, and al Qaeda are tied to the muslim brotherhood also), and he violated 17 UN sanctions, blah blah blah - no matter how many times we talk about Iraq - if one doesn’t want to hear it they won’t. It gets tiring.

I guess according to you we should just lay down and let the thugs of the Middle East and communist nations just kill us all.

What I figure is that muslims would implode if the world was islamicized. Who would they hate? I guess the muslim women really better worry if that happens - they would focus more on them. And we saw how fundamentalists treat their women - the Taliban is a blaring example. ‘Honor killings’ gone wild! I guess it could be a name of a TV series. Do you need youtube, or other, web addresses to prove what I am saying?

I guess you are also proving my point about the so called ‘moderate’ muslim if I have to explain the problems with N. Korea, Iraq, and Iran.

I had to write a paper for school not to long ago. The paper focused on terrorist organizations throughout history, their causes, and the role they can play in marking hegemonic decline and international instability.

For part of the paper I read a rather detailed interview with the leader of Hezbollah. The leader condemned Osama Bin Laden’s attacks on civilians. He made some exceptions for Israeli civilians due to the unique structure of their society, however he seems to believe God forbids the murder of innocent People, non-Muslims as well as Muslims.

As for you rather simplistic question of “why do they hate” there is a plethora of scientific research directed towards this question, I’d be happy to foreword you the titles if you like.

The typical terrorist has a secondary to post secondary education education(for post secondary read college). He or she comes from a middle class to upper middle class home and typically is of average to above average intelligence. They are marked with a sense of hegemonic infringement on their contemporary cultural norms, they seem to believe their lives or way of life is in immediate danger from a foreign source.

These characteristics are not specific to “Islamic” terrorist groups. A survey of a Jewish terrorist group in the 1980’s revealed similar results, as did surveys of eighteen European/Christian terrorist organizations. Studies of the Anarchist movements yield similar results

They generally appear as the hegemonic influence of the principal global/regional power(read US), this period is also marked by increased instances of the hegemonic power using military force to secure international results that could have been accomplished by economic/political pressure in the past(sound familiar?).

Finally we turn to honor killings. Studies of Jordan and numerous other countries where the practice in present yield somewhat counter intuitive results. Not only is there a lack of a statistical correlation between religiosity and honor killings, there seems to almost be an inverse correlation. A majority who have committed the act did not keep the daily prayers, fasts, or other typical practices of a devout Muslim. A broken/abusive childhood was the primary common denominator amongst perpetrators.

 

[jen_fla]

I will try to answer your questions… please be patient with me.

no problem. i am very impressed that you are taking the time to communicate with all of us. i am a big dummy when it comes to your religion and i do believe that there is some truth in all major religions, but the differences are causing far too much violence. understanding the differences is of the utmost importance.

**The Immunity

[9.1] (This is a declaration of) immunity by Allah and His Apostle towards those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement.

[9.2] So go about in the land for four months and know that you cannot weaken Allah and that Allah will bring disgrace to the unbelievers.

[9.3] And an announcement from Allah and His Apostle to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah and His Apostle are free from liability to the idolaters; therefore if you repent, it will be better for you, and if you turn back, then know that you will not weaken Allah; and announce painful punishment to those who disbelieve.

[9.4] Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you, so fulfill their agreement to the end of their term; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).**

[9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

[9.6] ,And if one of the idolaters seek protection from you, grant him protection till he hears the word of Allah, then make him attain his place of safety; this is because they are a people who do not know.

[9.7] How can there be an agreement for the idolaters with Allah and with His Apostle; except those with whom you made an agreement at the Sacred Mosque? ,So as long as they are true to you, be true to them; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).

Please re-examine the sections that I have highlighted in red.

The tax is not for the people who have an agreement (i.e., treaty) with the, Muslims, it is for the people who are being ruled by the Muslims.

i did read the highlighted sections. looking at 9.5 it says to me that for those that don’t repent or pay tax, then it’s lights out. are you saying that if a pagan does not pay tax or repent then killing is justified? and was this only for war in the 700s or is this the eternal word?

should all nonbelievers be ruled?

I’m sorry. I know what you meant to say, but I responded to what you did say… lest anyone else be confused. A woman is not punished for being married… but when two people commit adultery, they are both punished–and the punishment for adultery (implying married people) is stoning.

in that previous thread you made a distinction between honour killings and islamic law. is it fair to say that islamic law is justified in killing adulterers today because of quran? is that correct?

Jesus teaches us to show mercy to the adulterers.

drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=50&ch=8&l=7&f=s#x

 

[R_not]

I had to write a paper for school not to long ago. The paper focused on terrorist organizations throughout history, their causes, and the role they can play in marking hegemonic decline and international instability.

For part of the paper I read a rather detailed interview with the leader of Hezbollah. The leader condemned Osama Bin Laden’s attacks on civilians. He made some exceptions for Israeli civilians due to the unique structure of their society, however he seems to believe God forbids the murder of innocent People, non-Muslims as well as Muslims.

As for you rather simplistic question of “why do they hate” there is a plethora of scientific research directed towards this question, I’d be happy to foreword you the titles if you like.

The typical terrorist has a secondary to post secondary education education(for post secondary read college). He or she comes from a middle class to upper middle class home and typically is of average to above average intelligence. They are marked with a sense of hegemonic infringement on their contemporary cultural norms, they seem to believe their lives or way of life is in immediate danger from a foreign source.

These characteristics are not specific to “Islamic” terrorist groups. A survey of a Jewish terrorist group in the 1980’s revealed similar results, as did surveys of eighteen European/Christian terrorist organizations. Studies of the Anarchist movements yield similar results

They generally appear as the hegemonic influence of the principal global/regional power(read US), this period is also marked by increased instances of the hegemonic power using military force to secure international results that could have been accomplished by economic/political pressure in the past(sound familiar?).

Finally we turn to honor killings. Studies of Jordan and numerous other countries where the practice in present yield somewhat counter intuitive results. Not only is there a lack of a statistical correlation between religiosity and honor killings, there seems to almost be an inverse correlation. A majority who have committed the act did not keep the daily prayers, fasts, or other typical practices of a devout Muslim. A broken/abusive childhood was the primary common denominator amongst perpetrators.

Here is the problem - their laws allow for the heinous deeds that they do for their god. And as for war in islam, there are two realms that this earth is divided into - dar al harb and dar al islam. dar al harb (the realm of war) the infidels land under infidel laws, and dar al islam (the realm of isalm) lands under sharia law.

when muslims are in the lands of dar al harb - they are in the realm of war - so basically, they are in a jihad against the infidels.

You can write as many papers as you want and prove whatever you want, but if you do not understand what is the driving force behind this latest islamic shove of dominance in our lands, and the over 30 wars that are mostly caused by muslims, then you are not proving anything.

Even the 19 who put planes into buildings were poor muslims before they became martyrs for their faith because once they have killed infidels for allah - they are cleansed of all their past deeds that were not islamic. One example is that some were noted to have been in Las Vegas gambling, drinking and womanizing. Once they killed infidels and died for the cause - they were martyrs.

As for a leader of Hezbollah condemning bin laden - that is calling the kettle black, so to speak! He kills women and children for allah - just because they are infidels. Sorry, but you don’t know that for muslims - innocents do not include infidels. You also do not know that many words that muslims use have alternate meanings. You also do not know that deception is a-ok in islam in dar al harb, and certain other instances.

Start cracking open a koran and hadiths if you want to know islam. You will find out that the violence, and intimidation, and pure thuggary are not their only tactics. As we are experiencing here on these threads - da’wa is another tactic.

Da’wa: Definition: In Islam, da’wa means a “call” or “invitation,” and has been used to refer to a person being “called” to follow Islam. However, it has developed into the idea of a “mission” or “propaganda,” either in a political or religious sense.
Actually Da’wa is considered to be some type of “Jihad” its called “The Word Jihad” (aka Jihad Alkalema) , per (Quran 25:52) and the instructions of Muhammed in this Hadith:
Sahih Muslim, Book 001, Number 0079:

You will hear different meanings of it from muslims because they do not want to acknowledge that islam is anything other than peaceful with benign results for us infidels. That is not true. Peace in islam means one of three things for the infidel: death, conversion to islam, or subjugation (dhimmitude). And they have all sorts of meanings of the words for the subjugated ones.

here are some websites that also go into what islam is all about:
faithfreedom.org
and if you need updated information of not only the stealth jihad in our Western countries, but it also gives you what is going on in mostly muslim countries - jihadwatch.org, jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch, and frontpagemag.com will come up with some good articles, such as the connection of the MSA (muslims student association) with the muslim brotherhood, etc.

 

[Sailka]

QUOTE=Postmodern;3873893]I had to write a paper for school not to long ago. The paper focused on terrorist organizations throughout history, their causes, and the role they can play in marking hegemonic decline and international instability.

For part of the paper I read a rather detailed interview with the leader of Hezbollah. The leader condemned Osama Bin Laden’s attacks on civilians. He made some exceptions for Israeli civilians due to the unique structure of their society, however he seems to believe God forbids the murder of innocent People, non-Muslims as well as Muslims.

As for you rather simplistic question of “why do they hate” there is a plethora of scientific research directed towards this question, I’d be happy to foreword you the titles if you like.

The typical terrorist has a secondary to post secondary education education(for post secondary read college). He or she comes from a middle class to upper middle class home and typically is of average to above average intelligence. They are marked with a sense of hegemonic infringement on their contemporary cultural norms, they seem to believe their lives or way of life is in immediate danger from a foreign source.

These characteristics are not specific to “Islamic” terrorist groups. A survey of a Jewish terrorist group in the 1980’s revealed similar results, as did surveys of eighteen European/Christian terrorist organizations. Studies of the Anarchist movements yield similar results

They generally appear as the hegemonic influence of the principal global/regional power(read US), this period is also marked by increased instances of the hegemonic power using military force to secure international results that could have been accomplished by economic/political pressure in the past(sound familiar?).

Finally we turn to honor killings. Studies of Jordan and numerous other countries where the practice in present yield somewhat counter intuitive results. Not only is there a lack of a statistical correlation between religiosity and honor killings, there seems to almost be an inverse correlation. A majority who have committed the act did not keep the daily prayers, fasts, or other typical practices of a devout Muslim. A broken/abusive childhood was the primary common denominator amongst perpetrators.

                                                                                                                                                                                             ;)    ****

Thank you for your excellent Report of your detailed study including Interview with the Leader of Hezbolla, which organization is totally misrepresented as terrorist only, instead of a “Social” network providing basic government services in health, food, medical when not otherwise available.
And terrorism is by the weakest against the strongest Forces in intolerable illegal occupations, etc.

                                                                                           We have such a massive amount of  false hype   by    special interest politiscians and their underlings.      Major problems can not  be solved until the   Reasons causing them  are known..

• ** *
  Caint solve a problem ifn’ ya don’t know what it is: Kuntry Wisdom

 

[umerazad]

no problem. i am very impressed that you are taking the time to communicate with all of us. i am a big dummy when it comes to your religion and i do believe that there is some truth in all major religions, but the differences are causing far too much violence. understanding the differences is of the utmost importance.

i did read the highlighted sections. looking at 9.5 it says to me that for those that don’t repent or pay tax, then it’s lights out. are you saying that if a pagan does not pay tax or repent then killing is justified? and was this only for war in the 700s or is this the eternal word?

should all nonbelievers be ruled?

Hi Jen,

It appears Sister Amy is away so let me try to explain it to you. These verses were revealed about the pegans of Arab after they violated the terms of the peace treaty of Hudaibia around 9th Hijri. And the verse is not mentioning about ‘tax’ infact it meant ‘charity’. And these verses were only applicable to that particular situation (and to those people who violated the peace treaty). It would be crazy to assume that it applies in general. This is a misconception and it only arises due to lack of context about the specific revelation. Quran isn’t a book that was revealed at once. Infact it took almost 23 years for the revelation to complete and there is a history behind each revealation. All muslims scholars unanimously agree that 9:5 only applied to that specific situation (against some specific people who violated the treaty). Just to give you some historical context, you know, muslims ruled Spain for 800 years but when they left Spain Christians were still a majority. Muslims ruled India for over 1000 years but all the time Hindus were a majority over there. As of today, there are over 14 million by-birth Christians in arab lands. And all those non-muslims are a proof that Islam doesn’t allow any use of force against non-muslims. Quran is very explicit in saying that There is no compulsion in religion … (2:256).

Islam was spread by the intellect and invitation. Whole of east coast of Africa and Indonesia are muslim majority areas yet no muslim army ever invaded these areas.

in that previous thread you made a distinction between honour killings and islamic law. is it fair to say that islamic law is justified in killing adulterers today because of quran? is that correct?

Nops. Islamic law does not allow punishing adulterers (or anyone) without solid proof. Sister Amy mentioned that you need to present 4 witnesses to prove adultary … otherwise punishment can’t be enforced. Also, in case of proof, the punishment would be conducted by the State and not by a mob of people by themselves.

Jesus teaches us to show mercy to the adulterers.

drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=50&ch=8&l=7&f=s#x

Yes this is a beautiful teaching and Jesus (PBUH) did the right thing as he was not presented with any proof of her adultery. Also, as I see it, it was a trap for Jesus (PBUH) because Law said the punishment for adultery was death … but doing so would have been against the Roman Law. It was a trap for Jesus (PBUH) by the Jews of that time but Almighty Allah saved him from their trap. (Since we don’t know what he wrote on the floor so its impossible to assume why they left one by one … but my hypothesis is that may be Jesus (PBUH) wrote the names of the accusers along with the names of women they had affairs with … … so they left to save their own selves … its just a guess ).

But coming back to the point, this teaching lacks the deterrence of a law. I am not criticizing Jesus (PBUH) (as I truely respect him as one of the mightiest messengers of Allah) its just that this teaching cannot be used as a law today. Punishments are not meant to torture people, infact their The philosophy of Islam is that let a small loss take place to prevent a bigger loss. Forgiving adulterers (in presence of solid proof) would result in spreading evil in society as people would start exploiting the laws (on the hope of getting mercy).

I hope it helps.

Good day,

 

[Sailka]

Hi Jen,

It appears Sister Amy is away so let me try to explain it to you. These verses were revealed about the pegans of Arab after they violated the terms of the peace treaty of Hudaibia around 9th Hijri. And the verse is not mentioning about ‘tax’ infact it meant ‘charity’. And these verses were only applicable to that particular situation (and to those people who violated the peace treaty). It would be crazy to assume that it applies in general. This is a misconception and it only arises due to lack of context about the specific revelation. Quran isn’t a book that was revealed at once. Infact it took almost 23 years for the revelation to complete and there is a history behind each revealation. All muslims scholars unanimously agree that 9:5 only applied to that specific situation (against some specific people who violated the treaty). Just to give you some historical context, you know, muslims ruled Spain for 800 years but when they left Spain Christians were still a majority. Muslims ruled India for over 1000 years but all the time Hindus were a majority over there. As of today, there are over 14 million by-birth Christians in arab lands. And all those non-muslims are a proof that Islam doesn’t allow any use of force against non-muslims. Quran is very explicit in saying that There is no compulsion in religion … (2:256).

Islam was spread by the intellect and invitation. Whole of east coast of Africa and Indonesia are muslim majority areas yet no muslim army ever invaded these areas.

Nops. Islamic law does not allow punishing adulterers (or anyone) without solid proof. Sister Amy mentioned that you need to present 4 witnesses to prove adultary … otherwise punishment can’t be enforced. Also, in case of proof, the punishment would be conducted by the State and not by a mob of people by themselves.

Yes this is a beautiful teaching but it lacks the deterrence of a law. I am not criticizing Jesus (PBUH) (as I truely respect him as one of the mightiest messengers of Allah) its just that this law is not practical today. The philosophy of Islam is that let a small loss take place to prevent a bigger loss. Forgiving adulterers (in presence of solid proof) would result in spreading evil in society as people would start exploiting the laws (on the hope of getting mercy).

I hope it helps.

Good day,

                                                                                                                                                                                        ;) Thank you  for your detailed   explanations to  us  very hyped  Americans.       Truth must be known to live truthfully and at peace with all our neighbors

 

[Postmodern]

Here is the problem - their laws allow for the heinous deeds that they do for their god.

Which countries allow this?
That’s just my curiosity, it has nothing to do with the validity of your point. Simply because a “Muslim” country allows for a practice doesn’t mean it is allowable by the religion.
For instance Saudi Arabia gave preferable oil contracts to the United States in the 50’s, that does not mean this is an Islamic practice.

And as for war in islam, there are two realms that this earth is divided into - dar al harb and dar al islam. dar al harb (the realm of war) the infidels land under infidel laws, and dar al islam (the realm of isalm) lands under sharia law.

That division is a juristic construction based on a rather misguided interpretation of Bukhari. I’m not sure if any Muslim state has ever officially stated this division as a principal of their foreign policy. In fact the absence of application has led to a third division amongst some jurists, however notable Muslim Scholars reject it outright.

when muslims are in the lands of dar al harb - they are in the realm of war - so basically, they are in a jihad against the infidels.

See page 426 of “The religion of Islam” by Maulana Muhammad Ali and my response above.

You can write as many papers as you want and prove whatever you want, but if you do not understand what is the driving force behind this latest islamic shove of dominance in our
lands

I do, the difference between our two positions is methodology. My results are based on scientific studies and scrupulious historical/sociological analysis. Most statistics come from Israeli archives on biographical data discovered on actual Hezbollah fighters and surveys of terrorist groups from all over the globe and of ever possible cultural background. All yield starkly similar results, these are trans-continental trends that extend two centuries back. Gallop did a very comprehensive global poll. Additionally these are the trends of all past documented terrorist groups.

and the over 30 wars that are mostly caused by muslims, then you are not proving anything.

Which wars would these be?

Even the 19 who put planes into buildings were poor muslims before they became martyrs for their faith because once they have killed infidels for allah - they are cleansed of all their past deeds that were not islamic. One example is that some were noted to have been in Las Vegas gambling, drinking and womanizing. Once they killed infidels and died for the cause - they were martyrs.

That is your postulation, and we will likely never know what 19 individuals believed, however what we can do is see how these individuals fit into my conceptual, scientific framework. Like others they are not particularly religious, they came from countries highly influenced by cultural infringement and hegemonic pressure. You are claiming that Islamic Orthodoxy and devotion is a catalyst of terrorism, I have pointed out this is simply not the case. The Nineteen individuals fit perfectly with previously cited statistical results and our conceptual sociological framework.

As for a leader of Hezbollah condemning bin laden - that is calling the kettle black, so to speak! He kills women and children for allah - just because they are infidels.

No, he kills them for Israeli actions in Lebanon. The moral justifications or lack thereof is a debatable point, however the motivating factor is not.

Sorry, but you don’t know that for muslims - innocents do not include infidels.

That is rejected by the Koran, Tradition, and Abu Bakr’s regulations of Islamic war. His provisions protected not only women and children, but also religious figures such as monks and rabbis

You also do not know that many words that muslims use have alternate meanings. You also do not know that deception is a-ok in islam in dar al harb, and certain other instances.

Please don’t presume to tell be what I do and do not know.
If you wish to refer to specific instances we can discuss them(to the best of my ability), however if your plan is to make outsourced claims then there is no point in talking.

Start cracking open a koran and hadiths if you want to know islam.

I already have to an extent. Are you suggesting you have read all nine volumes of Tradition and the entire Koran straight through, line for line?

You will find out that the violence, and intimidation, and pure thuggary are not their only tactics. As we are experiencing here on these threads - da’wa is another tactic.
Da’wa: Definition: In Islam, da’wa means a “call” or “invitation,” and has been used to refer to a person being “called” to follow Islam. However, it has developed into the idea of a “mission” or “propaganda,” either in a political or religious sense.
Actually Da’wa is considered to be some type of “Jihad” its called “The Word Jihad” (aka Jihad Alkalema) , per (Quran 25:52) and the instructions of Muhammed in this Hadith:
Sahih Muslim, Book 001, Number 0079:

Opening up my Koran

Al Furqan 52 tells Muhammad to reject the “false” claims of non-Muslims and to continue wageing the “greater” Jihad

You will hear different meanings of it from muslims because they do not want to acknowledge that islam is anything other than peaceful with benign results for us infidels. That is not true. Peace in islam means one of three things for the infidel: death, conversion to islam, or subjugation (dhimmitude). And they have all sorts of meanings of the words for the subjugated ones.
here are some websites that also go into what islam is all about:
faithfreedom.org
and if you need updated information of not only the stealth jihad in our Western countries, but it also gives you what is going on in mostly muslim countries - jihadwatch.org, jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch, and frontpagemag.com will come up with some good articles, such as the connection of the MSA (muslims student association) with the muslim brotherhood, etc.

Let’s get through basic facts before we address your conspiracy theories.

 

[Postmodern]

QUOTE=Postmodern;3873893]I had to write a paper for school not to long ago. The paper focused on terrorist organizations throughout history, their causes, and the role they can play in marking hegemonic decline and international instability.

For part of the paper I read a rather detailed interview with the leader of Hezbollah. The leader condemned Osama Bin Laden’s attacks on civilians. He made some exceptions for Israeli civilians due to the unique structure of their society, however he seems to believe God forbids the murder of innocent People, non-Muslims as well as Muslims.

As for you rather simplistic question of “why do they hate” there is a plethora of scientific research directed towards this question, I’d be happy to foreword you the titles if you like.

The typical terrorist has a secondary to post secondary education education(for post secondary read college). He or she comes from a middle class to upper middle class home and typically is of average to above average intelligence. They are marked with a sense of hegemonic infringement on their contemporary cultural norms, they seem to believe their lives or way of life is in immediate danger from a foreign source.

These characteristics are not specific to “Islamic” terrorist groups. A survey of a Jewish terrorist group in the 1980’s revealed similar results, as did surveys of eighteen European/Christian terrorist organizations. Studies of the Anarchist movements yield similar results

They generally appear as the hegemonic influence of the principal global/regional power(read US), this period is also marked by increased instances of the hegemonic power using military force to secure international results that could have been accomplished by economic/political pressure in the past(sound familiar?).

Finally we turn to honor killings. Studies of Jordan and numerous other countries where the practice in present yield somewhat counter intuitive results. Not only is there a lack of a statistical correlation between religiosity and honor killings, there seems to almost be an inverse correlation. A majority who have committed the act did not keep the daily prayers, fasts, or other typical practices of a devout Muslim. A broken/abusive childhood was the primary common denominator amongst perpetrators.

                                                                                                                                                                                             ;)    ****

Thank you for your excellent Report of your detailed study including Interview with the Leader of Hezbolla, which organization is totally misrepresented as terrorist only, instead of a “Social” network providing basic government services in health, food, medical when not otherwise available.
And terrorism is by the weakest against the strongest Forces in intolerable illegal occupations, etc.

                                                                                           We have such a massive amount of  false hype   by    special interest politiscians and their underlings.      Major problems can not  be solved until the   Reasons causing them  are known..

• ** *
  Caint solve a problem ifn’ ya don’t know what it is: Kuntry Wisdom

Thanks you

Absolutly Hezbollah has done admirable social work in Lebenon for civilians. Despite their good social work I have to say classifying them as a terrorist organization seems correct, they don’t simply target the Israeli military, but Israeli civilians as well.

 

[Sailka]

Thank You, Postmodern, for your informative unbiased replies to our many mistaken ideas. Detailed explantions, corrections with respect to all Is the Catholic way. As is unbiased Search for all truths, and correcting misunderstandings. The Problem is what a vast amount of false hype has been put out about Islam by own agenda driven few. You and Sister Amy have corrected so Much. God Bless.

 

[R_not]

Which countries allow this?
That’s just my curiosity, it has nothing to do with the validity of your point. Simply because a “Muslim” country allows for a practice doesn’t mean it is allowable by the religion.
For instance Saudi Arabia gave preferable oil contracts to the United States in the 50’s, that does not mean this is an Islamic practice.

That division is a juristic construction based on a rather misguided interpretation of Bukhari. I’m not sure if any Muslim state has ever officially stated this division as a principal of their foreign policy. In fact the absence of application has led to a third division amongst some jurists, however notable Muslim Scholars reject it outright.

See page 426 of “The religion of Islam” by Maulana Muhammad Ali and my response above.

I do, the difference between our two positions is methodology. My results are based on scientific studies and scrupulious historical/sociological analysis. Most statistics come from Israeli archives on biographical data discovered on actual Hezbollah fighters and surveys of terrorist groups from all over the globe and of ever possible cultural background. All yield starkly similar results, these are trans-continental trends that extend two centuries back. Gallop did a very comprehensive global poll. Additionally these are the trends of all past documented terrorist groups.

Which wars would these be?

That is your postulation, and we will likely never know what 19 individuals believed, however what we can do is see how these individuals fit into my conceptual, scientific framework. Like others they are not particularly religious, they came from countries highly influenced by cultural infringement and hegemonic pressure. You are claiming that Islamic Orthodoxy and devotion is a catalyst of terrorism, I have pointed out this is simply not the case. The Nineteen individuals fit perfectly with previously cited statistical results and our conceptual sociological framework.

No, he kills them for Israeli actions in Lebanon. The moral justifications or lack thereof is a debatable point, however the motivating factor is not.

That is rejected by the Koran, Tradition, and Abu Bakr’s regulations of Islamic war. His provisions protected not only women and children, but also religious figures such as monks and rabbis

Please don’t presume to tell be what I do and do not know.
If you wish to refer to specific instances we can discuss them(to the best of my ability), however if your plan is to make outsourced claims then there is no point in talking.

I already have to an extent. Are you suggesting you have read all nine volumes of Tradition and the entire Koran straight through, line for line?

Opening up my Koran

Al Furqan 52 tells Muhammad to reject the “false” claims of non-Muslims and to continue wageing the “greater” Jihad

Let’s get through basic facts before we address your conspiracy theories.

Sharia laws are laws based on the koran and hadiths. As for saudi arabia allowing others in to exploit their oil - I don’t know what you are getting at. saudi arabia is one of the most restrictive muslim countries there is for infidels. And slavery is still conducted in saudi arabia, along with beheadings of women and others who transgress their sharia laws. An infidel, or a dhimmi, has to practice their religion in secret.

As for dar al islam and dar al harb - dar al islam just means that sharia law is in place and muslims practice their religion as they wish - although others have restrictions placed on them.

dar al harb, well that means that muslims have restrictions placed on them and basically cannot practice their religion as they want to which means sharia law is the law of the land and dhimmi are not subjugate. Look in wikipedia for the definitions, or here is an extensive set of articles that start with this website: jihadwatch.org/archives/004628.php

Whoever told you it is misguided is not totally telling the truth.

As for Israeli actions in Lebanon - well, I suppose training the Lebanonese Army over a decade ago is a bad thing?! Otherwise, Lebanon used to be the Riviera of the Middle East - not now since the muslims have become a majority. If you want to know how a Lebanese Christian survived for about a decade in a bomb shelter from muslims on a jihad - then read ‘Because They Hate’. Hezbollah and the palestinians have been rebuilding their arsenal of boms since the Lebanon/Israeli war under the noses of NATO and the UN.

During the war, the muslims would lob a bomb from a house, then run away. The Israelis would be able to pin point where the bomb came from and then retaliate. Well, what the hezbollah and pals were doing were lobbing bombs from houses that had women and children in it and then come back and use their bodies, if they died, as propaganda. And our media ‘ate it up’.

Of course, we very rarely hear about the aggression from the muslims lobbing the bombs into Israel from Lebanon - or even from the Gaza.

I presumed from your post you didn’t know of the deception that the koran encourages muslims to do to us infidels.

Sorry, but maybe a few individuals here and there didn’t do things against the innocents, and religious peoples - but the aggression towards them is still happening. Even in the UK a couple of priests were killed by muslims. An old nun was killed over some cartoons a couple of years ago. buddhists monks, and Hindus are killed regularly. Sorry, but this is a fact and jihadwatch.org can be searched for the acts against innocents and the religious. I suppose there are other websites that report on them, but I usually use jihadwatch.org.

I don’t know what your point of telling me Al Furqan’s quote is. It is only proving my point of what muslims do when confronted with the facts.

As for the 19 who did mass murder - I also do not know what your point of that is either. time and again we see the rich, well off students, doctors, women - some willing to blow up their own babies, etc willing to kill themselves if they succeed in killing infidels. Saudi Arabia’s largest export besides oil are jihadists. With a country full of young people who mostly get degrees in some sort of islamic studies - there is not too much work for them to do so they go train to become jihadists. And we also see some of our own who go train to become jihadists. And they are not poor and they certainly do follow the rites of their chosen religion.

Reading the koran and hadiths can be boring, I know, but to understand it a bit would also explain the actions of jihadists - whether they fit into your paper’s thesis or not.

 

[R_not]

Another point on ‘just because a muslim country allows this doesn’t mean it is allowed by the religion’ statement. islam is a total political movement, religion and (what I would call) invasive in one’s personal life. Total control.

A muslim country under sharia law is their religion.

And as for conspiracy theories. Well, that goes into the muslim brotherhood and its associations with the MSA (muslim student association), and al qaeda, the wahabbis in saudi arabia, and even hezbollah AND hamas - and a few other notables. It isn’t what I am saying - it is what THEY say. We get all caught up on bashing the messenger and forget that a lot has been found out and there is indeed documented proof of the stealth jihad. Just pay attention to what is happening in Europe and the UK.

Here is information on the Muslim Brotherhood’s ‘The Project’ - an article about how/when this information was found:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID={67736123-6864-4205-B51E-BCBDEF45FCDE}

Here is part two of the article which has “The Project”'s document in full:
frontpagemag.com/articles/Read.aspx?GUID=61829F93-7A81-4654-A2E8-F0A5E6DD3DC4

Here is a video about the Muslim Brotherhood: youtube.com/watch?v=tx0lqVZOnHw&feature=related

And here is an article to show the tie between the Muslim Brotherhood and the Muslim Student Association:
studentsforacademicfreedom.org/news/2598/the-muslim-students-association-and-the-jihad-network

This is an example of how the MSA behaves on some campuses.
msa on UCIrvine - hate speech:youtube.com/watch?v=gJ1lk3xz_UE

 

[Sailka]

:juggle:

Sharia laws are laws based on the koran and hadiths. As for saudi arabia allowing others in to exploit their oil - I don’t know what you are getting at. saudi arabia is one of the most restrictive muslim countries there is for infidels. And slavery is still conducted in saudi arabia, along with beheadings of women and others who transgress their sharia laws. An infidel, or a dhimmi, has to practice their religion in secret.

As for dar al islam and dar al harb - dar al islam just means that sharia law is in place and muslims practice their religion as they wish - although others have restrictions placed on them.

dar al harb, well that means that muslims have restrictions placed on them and basically cannot practice their religion as they want to which means sharia law is the law of the land and dhimmi are not subjugate. Look in wikipedia for the definitions, or here is an extensive set of articles that start with this website: jihadwatch.org/archives/004628.php

Whoever told you it is misguided is not totally telling the truth.

As for Israeli actions in Lebanon - well, I suppose training the Lebanonese Army over a decade ago is a bad thing?! Otherwise, Lebanon used to be the Riviera of the Middle East - not now since the muslims have become a majority. If you want to know how a Lebanese Christian survived for about a decade in a bomb shelter from muslims on a jihad - then read ‘Because They Hate’. Hezbollah and the palestinians have been rebuilding their arsenal of boms since the Lebanon/Israeli war under the noses of NATO and the UN.

During the war, the muslims would lob a bomb from a house, then run away. The Israelis would be able to pin point where the bomb came from and then retaliate. Well, what the hezbollah and pals were doing were lobbing bombs from houses that had women and children in it and then come back and use their bodies, if they died, as propaganda. And our media ‘ate it up’.

Of course, we very rarely hear about the aggression from the muslims lobbing the bombs into Israel from Lebanon - or even from the Gaza.

I presumed from your post you didn’t know of the deception that the koran encourages muslims to do to us infidels.

Sorry, but maybe a few individuals here and there didn’t do things against the innocents, and religious peoples - but the aggression towards them is still happening. Even in the UK a couple of priests were killed by muslims. An old nun was killed over some cartoons a couple of years ago. buddhists monks, and Hindus are killed regularly. Sorry, but this is a fact and jihadwatch.org can be searched for the acts against innocents and the religious. I suppose there are other websites that report on them, but I usually use jihadwatch.org.

I don’t know what your point of telling me Al Furqan’s quote is. It is only proving my point of what muslims do when confronted with the facts.

As for the 19 who did mass murder - I also do not know what your point of that is either. time and again we see the rich, well off students, doctors, women - some willing to blow up their own babies, etc willing to kill themselves if they succeed in killing infidels. Saudi Arabia’s largest export besides oil are jihadists. With a country full of young people who mostly get degrees in some sort of islamic studies - there is not too much work for them to do so they go train to become jihadists. And we also see some of our own who go train to become jihadists. And they are not poor and they certainly do follow the rites of their chosen religion.

Reading the koran and hadiths can be boring, I know, but to understand it a bit would also explain the actions of jihadists - whether they fit into your paper’s thesis or not.

                                                                                                                                                                                          But never   ever ignore  why  a fraction of 1%  of Muslims  are violent  against us Outsiders. Not because of Religion, not  because of the Koran, but we are In their Country, In their "Life", and "In their Face", wrongfully.    Only in  worst cases of the death or torture by Us  against them do a tiny few   use their only 'weapon', Violence.

:knight1:

 

[jen_fla]

Hi Jen,

It appears Sister Amy is away so let me try to explain it to you. These verses were revealed about the pegans of Arab after they violated the terms of the peace treaty of Hudaibia around 9th Hijri. And the verse is not mentioning about ‘tax’ infact it meant ‘charity’. And these verses were only applicable to that particular situation (and to those people who violated the peace treaty). It would be crazy to assume that it applies in general. This is a misconception and it only arises due to lack of context about the specific revelation. Quran isn’t a book that was revealed at once. Infact it took almost 23 years for the revelation to complete and there is a history behind each revealation. All muslims scholars unanimously agree that 9:5 only applied to that specific situation (against some specific people who violated the treaty). Just to give you some historical context, you know, muslims ruled Spain for 800 years but when they left Spain Christians were still a majority. Muslims ruled India for over 1000 years but all the time Hindus were a majority over there. As of today, there are over 14 million by-birth Christians in arab lands. And all those non-muslims are a proof that Islam doesn’t allow any use of force against non-muslims. Quran is very explicit in saying that There is no compulsion in religion … (2:256).

Islam was spread by the intellect and invitation. Whole of east coast of Africa and Indonesia are muslim majority areas yet no muslim army ever invaded these areas.

Nops. Islamic law does not allow punishing adulterers (or anyone) without solid proof. Sister Amy mentioned that you need to present 4 witnesses to prove adultary … otherwise punishment can’t be enforced. Also, in case of proof, the punishment would be conducted by the State and not by a mob of people by themselves.

Yes this is a beautiful teaching and Jesus (PBUH) did the right thing as he was not presented with any proof of her adultery. Also, as I see it, it was a trap for Jesus (PBUH) because Law said the punishment for adultery was death … but doing so would have been against the Roman Law. It was a trap for Jesus (PBUH) by the Jews of that time but Almighty Allah saved him from their trap. (Since we don’t know what he wrote on the floor so its impossible to assume why they left one by one … but my hypothesis is that may be Jesus (PBUH) wrote the names of the accusers along with the names of women they had affairs with … … so they left to save their own selves … its just a guess ).

But coming back to the point, this teaching lacks the deterrence of a law. I am not criticizing Jesus (PBUH) (as I truely respect him as one of the mightiest messengers of Allah) its just that this teaching cannot be used as a law today. Punishments are not meant to torture people, infact their The philosophy of Islam is that let a small loss take place to prevent a bigger loss. Forgiving adulterers (in presence of solid proof) would result in spreading evil in society as people would start exploiting the laws (on the hope of getting mercy).

I hope it helps.

Good day,

i have to leave the board for awhile and it might take me awhile to respond to the top portion, but going back to the adulterer issue. i have received an answer. if a man or woman (in solid proof) have been found guilty, then islamic law says to kill them as they are not innocent. **
**
WOW!!!

**WOW

and WOW!!!**

that is why we ignorant Christians have a hard time with your religion. i honestly doubt that many of the modern day converts to your religion know that.

thank you for making that clear to me.

you come up with your own personal interpretations of our Bible all you want, but that will not make it correct. maybe these two differences should be explored further as i see the other posts turning into political debates.

this one is easy.

today, right now, given that we have solid proof of a couple being adulterous:

**for us Christians **we are to forgive them. we are also told not to judge as that is for God to do. the Catholic Church does NOT tell us to have them stoned to death!

for muslims they shall be put to death.

can we chalk that up to one HUGE difference?

yes, the one true God is merciful, but mohammed and his laws are not.