Catholicism verses Islam differences and similarities

[Booklover]

The problem is about angels. It appears that you can have your angels but the Muslims cannot. When you have antipathy to angels then do not believe that any angel appeared to Joseph the carpentar. Forget about him. You need him to authenticate Jesus pious birth. That is impossible now. Nobody will believe a word of what you say. Have a good laugh at your one way traffic please.

That is what we call the bias and prejudice of the christians.

Whenever angels have appeared to humans, they have always told them to not be afraid. Why did the angel who appeared to Muhammad not do the same, but instead practically strangled him?

Vickie

 

[inJESUS]

What happens if Muslims conquered and ruled a country, yet the citizens refused to pay the jizya?

I call you to God and to Islam. If you respond to the call, then you are Muslims: You obtain the benefits they enjoy and take up the responsibilities they bear. If you refuse, then you must pay the jizyah. If you refuse the jizyah, I will bring against you tribes of people who are more eager for death than you are for life. We will then fight you until God decides between us and you." (Al Tabari, Volume XI)

Khalid bin Al-Waheed (Muslim General, 632AD)

Is that peace or totalitarian regime à la Muhammad?

i don’t want to fight Muslims, i don’t want to attack their “religion”, but why am i supposed to pay them with humiliation and if i refuse, i get killed?

 

[inJESUS]

The problem is about angels. It appears that you can have your angels but the Muslims cannot. When you have antipathy to angels then do not believe that any angel appeared to Joseph the carpentar. Forget about him. You need him to authenticate Jesus pious birth. That is impossible now. Nobody will believe a word of what you say. Have a good laugh at your one way traffic please.

explained a thousand time already for YOU.

We have no problems with “angelic visits” or with “prophets” but with the MESSAGE/TEACHINGS/LIFE of the one who claims them. Muhammad fails them all just like Smith does.

That is what we call the bias and prejudice of the christians.

 

[dolphinlove]

The problem is about angels. It appears that you can have your angels but the Muslims cannot. When you have antipathy to angels then do not believe that any angel appeared to Joseph the carpentar. Forget about him. You need him to authenticate Jesus pious birth. That is impossible now. Nobody will believe a word of what you say. Have a good laugh at your one way traffic please.

That is what we call the bias and prejudice of the christians.

Its quite simple really, only one can be right, dont you agree? I think the bible is right, so therefore i dont think God would change his mind and send an angel to corrupt his original teachings.

 

[Booklover]

I call you to God and to Islam. If you respond to the call, then you are Muslims: You obtain the benefits they enjoy and take up the responsibilities they bear. If you refuse, then you must pay the jizyah. If you refuse the jizyah, I will bring against you tribes of people who are more eager for death than you are for life. We will then fight you until God decides between us and you." (Al Tabari, Volume XI)

Khalid bin Al-Waheed (Muslim General, 632AD)

Is that peace or totalitarian regime à la Muhammad?

i don’t want to fight Muslims, i don’t want to attack their “religion”, but why am i supposed to pay them with humiliation and if i refuse, i get killed?

Because they think that God took the Chosen People title away from the Jews and gave it to the “Gentiles” (Muslims) and therefore they’re now our lords and masters. Delusions of grandeur, megalomania, call it what you will.

Vickie

 

[Sister_Amy]

What happens if Muslims conquered and ruled a country, yet the citizens refused to pay the jizya?

If the citizens refuse to pay the jizya, then they are not being ruled by Muslims. Instead, they are choosing to fight the Muslims. So if they want to fight… the Muslims will fight them.

 

[Booklover]

If the citizens refuse to pay the jizya, then they are not being ruled by Muslims. Instead, they are choosing to fight the Muslims. So if they want to fight… the Muslims will fight them.

So it is totalitarianism, slavery, genocide, barbarism, a la Muhammad! So much for the religion of “peace”.

Thanks for finally speaking the truth about what Islam is all about! It’s either submit or die!

Vickie

 

[R_not]

I know what Shar’iah is, I asked which countries have legalized honor killings

To counter my hard evidence that religiosity is not linked with “honor” killings you claimed that Muslim nations allow it. I countered this rebuttal by pointing out that simply because a Muslim country allows something doesn’t mean it is Islamic. For instance, Saudi Arabia have us a great deal on oil in the 50’s, simply because they are a Theocratic Monarchy doesn’t mean profitable oil deals for the US is an Islamic practice. And simply because a country allows/turns a blind to honor killings, and that country happens to be Islamic, that doesn’t mean that “honor” killings are Islamic.

I know what it means, I said it was a Juristic construction based on a strained interpretation of Hadith

I read it by a renowned Islamic Scholar(If you recall I referred you to him), the book was certified at Al-Azhar University, it should be solidly Orthodox

Mauana Muhammad Ali, “The Religion of Islam”

There was plenty of slaughter in Lebanon from all sides, Christians slaughtered Muslims as well. My point had absolutely nothing to do with any points you have raised here. You claimed that Hezbollah kills Israeli civilians because they are “infidels” I am pointing out that that is categorically false, Hezbollah’s murders of civilians is a direct result of Israeli policy in Lebanon. That is not to say that Hezbollah/Lebanon is right, or that Israel is right, I am simply saying that Israeli actions, right or wrong, in Lebanon, are the reason Hezbollah attacks Israeli civilians.

And I asked what specific sect and teaching you are referring to. You seem to view Islam as some monolithic entity.

A Muslim attacks a Christian Church in Indonesia, this would be counted as Muslim Jihad by your standards I believe. What is missing from this picture is the complex sociological context in which the event took place. The fact that most Chinese in Indonesia are ethnic Chinese, and that this is primarily a ethnic conflict, is overlooked. This is the problem of your methodology, it allows no nuance. You cite problems in Britain with Muslims. Is this Muslim population representative of the global Muslim population? No, in fact most British Muslims hail from a distinct tribal sect of Pakistan.

This black/white, Huntingttionian either/or scinario does not allow a genuinely sophisticated and comprehensive analysis of the events.

The “Greater” Jihad is a spiritual struggle, not physical.

I said the studies all universally report that terrorists tend to come from a middle to upper middle class household, if I said “poor Muslim” it was in the sense that a Catholic who doesn’t keep Lent is a “poor Catholic”, it refers to spiritual, not material resources.

Your claims about religiosity of terrorists are simply false, individuals who enact honor killings tend to not be religiously observant, and “radical” Muslim show no propensity towards greater or more fervent religiosity than “moderate” Muslims.

You can rebut these with intuitive suppositions all you wish, however they are backed up by facts and scientific study after scientific study. As I said, if you want the article titles I’d be happy to give them to you. Comprehensive, peer reviewed scientific studies.

My paper contains no original work, it simply draws on years of intensive studies. I don’t find the Koran boring at all, it reminds me of Shakespear, the Hadiths are superficially dully, but interesting for their historical value.

By the way, I had no thesis to begin with, I found all relevant studies, and then drew a conclusion, one based on hard evidence
My positions is based on my reading major Islamic Scholars/Sources and peer reviewed sociological studies. From 12th century Persian texts to Seyyed Hossein Nasr.

#1. you haven’t even presented your paper to prove where you are getting your ‘hard evidence’.

#2. from the comments above I do not find that your hard evidence is hard at all - I don’t find your revisionist history valid since it isn’t what has happened, for example in Lebanon. It is in fact what the usual muslim story is about any country they bring down to their level.

#3 from the comments on sharia law, honor killings, etc - I don’t even find that you have done any research beyond trying to prove some point that is probably what your paper is about. The difference between say, Jews and Christians is that the Jews don’t practice it anymore and haven’t for centuries and in Christianity it isn’t even mentioned in the NT. The only ones allowing it are countries under sharia law due to the fact that the rights of women are just not up to par. And the ones who bring it here to our shores - are muslims. thank goodness we have laws that deal with such atrocious acts. that is the difference between sharia law and our ‘man made laws’ which I find far superior to sharia law - the supposed laws of a god.

#4. here is a very good explanation on how muslims change the facts according to what they want to convey to people gullible enough to swallow it. As we saw the facts changed in regards to Lebanon - and as you are trying to revise, and as we have seen that the muslims revise that was helped along by our own media.

jihadwatch.org/archives/021617.php

Watch/listen to this video if you want a real eye-opener on some depraved behaviors that their prophet ok’d. There is a lot more depravity - but this is a real kicker.

youtube.com/watch?v=4RQd1CRBQs0

 

[R_not]

So it is totalitarianism, slavery, genocide, barbarism, a la Muhammad! So much for the religion of “peace”.

Thanks for finally speaking the truth about what Islam is all about! It’s either submit or die!

Vickie

this is the reverse logic of muslims. This is their definition of peace and are just puzzled as to why there is something wrong with it! death, conversion or subjugation.

they just don’t know why normal people reject their ideas of peace. It all goes back to my list of alternate definitions for words such as peace, peace treaties, oppressors, innocents, etc.

 

[Booklover]

this is the reverse logic of muslims. This is their definition of peace and are just puzzled as to why there is something wrong with it! death, conversion or subjugation.

they just don’t know why normal people reject their ideas of peace. It all goes back to my list of alternate definitions for words such as peace, peace treaties, oppressors, innocents, etc.

Exactly, and they use deceit and lies to further their agenda! There’s plenty of Islamic propaganda going on right here on these forums, but many people don’t recognize it for what it is.

Vickie

 

[inJESUS]

If the citizens refuse to pay the jizya, then they are not being ruled by Muslims. Instead, they are choosing to fight the Muslims. So if they want to fight… the Muslims will fight them.

no fighting. They simply do not want to pay in humiliation …it is not about taxes but about being humiliated …or is this an example of “fighting against Muslims” where in fact no one is fighting? just not wanting to be humiliated means you are “fighting Islam”?

so either humiliation or death when in both cases people are not killing you or attacking your religion?

i

 

[Sister_Amy]

Then why don’t they make their own country and make a treaty with the Muslims?

 

[planten]

**[5.59] Say: O followers of the Book! do you find fault with us (for aught) except that we believe in Allah and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed before, and that most of you are transgressors?

[5.60] Say: Shall I inform you of (him who is) worse than this in retribution from Allah? (Worse is he) whom Allah has cursed and brought His wrath upon, and of whom He made apes and swine,** and he who served the Shaitan; these are worse in place and more erring from the straight path.

i am not sure who is being called apes and swine here. please explain.

i think most of us are trying really hard to discern if the quran is being misinterpreted for political power or not. i know i have cringed myself hearing some of the things Christian fundamentalists have preached and i get upset at how the message of love gets distorted. the Bible can be hard to understand, but when a Catholic comes to a passage that does not appear to be a message of love, we can go to the Church for guidance as to it’s interpretation.

please explain the peaceful message to be found in quran here:
**
[9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

[9.30] And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!**

what do you do if one muslim takes a different meaning out of quran than another muslim? who has final say as to what is the correct meaning?

i also want to say that words can not express how awesome it is that people of varying faiths from all over the world can have this discussion! we should pray for those that live in fear and can not express their questions. God gave us brains to explore ideas and hearts to know to always love the individual no matter how wrong you think they are.

Peace be unto all of us.
Jen

It is a very good long post, even though i could not understand all of it. Please reas verse 9:29 with verse 9:28 as follows:

[9:28] O ye who believe! surely, the idolaters are unclean. So they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year of theirs. And if you fear poverty, Allah will enrich you out of His bounty, if He pleases. Surely, Allah is All-knowing, Wise.
[9:29] Fight those from among the people of the Book, who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor hold as unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have declared to be unlawful, nor follow the true religion, until they pay the tax considering it a favor and acknowledge their subjection.
[9:30] And the Jews say, ‘Ezra is the son of Allah,’ and the Christians say, ‘the Messiah is the son of Allah;’ that is what they say with their mouths. They only imitate the saying of those who had been active disbelievers (kafirs) before them. Allah’s curse be on them! How they are turned away.
[9:31] They have taken their priest and their monks for lords besides Allah. And so have they taken the Messiah, son of Mary. And they were not commanded but to worship the One God. There is no God but He. Holy is He far above what they associate with Him!

What ever is written above is correct. The verse 28 and 29 are referring to the idolaters (pagans) only who had been fighting the Muslims for many years and later they had been defeated after the wars of 8 years. It is also discussing the people of the book (Jews and the christians). They were not to be killed or fought if they remained peaceful and co-operative to the Muslims by paying some tax.
This tax was necessary because the Muslims were under attack from different enemies in different places. There were Muslims living in the non-Muslim lands (lands belonging to the people of the book). It was necessary for the safety of the Muslims living in those lands (and in the Capital) to make a good arrangement as non combatant tax. There was no risk of attack or killing of the people of the book if they paid the tax. Otherwise they would be considered combatants and helpers of the nearby christian forces.

Please note that it is an order to fight, applicable to those people of the book only who do not believe in Allah (i.e. God) and they do not believe in the hereafter and they do not declare Haram what Allah has declared as Haram and they do not support the religion of truth. So it would be difficult to find such people of the book, would it not? Those could only be atheists amongst the people of the books.

In the verse 9:30, it is correctly described that the Jews consider Uzair as the son of God. The christians consider Jesus as son of God. (That is not wrong). That is as bad as the saying of the arch enemies of Islam (Kuffar). They are likened to the hostile disbelievers. It is allowed to fight such disbelievrs. But the normal peaceful disbelievers were all living in Madinah, the Capital. No harm to them.

 

[planten]

“And had the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) believed, it would have been better for them;” is full respect? Denial of the resurrection and error of the Trinity is full respect?

No, I don’t see that from the Muslim verses. I see a bigoted religion that denies my faith explictly and has disdain for all non-Muslims. I have tried to look for tolerance in Islam and the Quuran. It is a myth.

Okay, let us assume that the praise and recognition of Jesus as a prophet by the Muslims, and the praise of the purity of Mary is not enough. Much more is needed by the christians from the Muslims.
May I ask what good the christians are ascribing to Islam or the prophet Muhammad. Just tell what good you people are doing towards islam? Please tell then we will weigh the things in balance.

 

[Angelos]

Please note that it is an order to fight, applicable to those people of the book only who do not believe in Allah (i.e. God) and they do not believe in the hereafter and they do not declare Haram what Allah has declared as Haram and they do not support the religion of truth. So it would be difficult to find such people of the book, would it not? Those could only be atheists amongst the people of the books.

The Koran says only ISLAM is the religion of truth! This makes ALL NON-MUSLIMS equal to idolaters that must be fought and punished. Your Koran does not distinguish bad Jews/Christians from good ones.

In the verse 9:30, it is correctly described that the Jews consider Uzair as the son of God. The christians consider Jesus as son of God. (That is not wrong). That is as bad as the saying of the arch enemies of Islam (Kuffar). They are likened to the hostile disbelievers. It is allowed to fight such disbelievrs. But the normal peaceful disbelievers were all living in Madinah, the Capital. No harm to them.

Jews do not even know a person named UZAIR! That’s another fabrication of the authors of the Koran, who wanted to justify their anti-Jewish campaign through lies and slanders.

What do you mean with the word “normal peaceful disbelievers”??? The verse you quoted accuses ALL Jews and Christians of being equal to pagans in faith! Actually, Mohammad’s scribes wrote those verses to include Jews and Christians into the same category of pagans, who were made prey to Mohammad’s army!

 

[Sailka]

Exactly, and they use deceit and lies to further their agenda! There’s plenty of Islamic propaganda going on right here on these forums, but many people don’t recognize it for what it is.

Vickie

                                                                                                                                                                                          Vickie, name me One Islamic "Lie/Deceit".  You've been brainwashed, and don't respexct honest facts being presented  by  by Muslims And Agnostoc Catholic  about Islam.                  
                                                                                           Vickie, Who has killed Tens of Thousands of Muslims  in Their  Lands, in last few years? And trying to make Big Business profits and 'swinging deals', Like the Giant Olil Contracts 2 days ago   For USA Oil Giants?      Do you  think we are acting Christian in there things?     
                                                                                           It is not  Islam that causes  the   tiny fraction of 1%  of terrorists, but Our Above named Policies.     And Torture of 'suspects'  has been a War Crime since 1864, Geneva. And does Not work.    Think we are creating friends, promoting democracy with these Very selfish, self centered actions  of ours?                                 What are we doing in  Their Lands?   Their Culture?                     


                                                               
                                                                                           Who invaded Who, Vickie?  Heard of a British Oil company and our CIA overthrowing the Honestly elected  President of Iran in 1947?   All the  problems There Resulted From our  glossly improper actions there, the opposite of Christianity Or  Freedom or Democracy?                                                                         
                                                                                           Can't see where the big Problems are, Vickie?  Our Side, Not Islam, which is a Faith.

 

[Verisimilitude]

Then why don’t they make their own country and make a treaty with the Muslims?

The Jews made their own country in the same way Arabia and Egypt among the many other Muslim nations did. Just because Islam has a book that says pay a tax with humiliation because some Muslims think they own a land they do not possess- who cares what Islams book says in a country not ruled by Muslims and why should anyone make a treaty with Muslims but rather with the Turks, or Syrians or Egyptians?

If the citizens refuse to pay the jizya, then they are not being ruled by Muslims. Instead, they are choosing to fight the Muslims. So if they want to fight… the Muslims will fight them.

It is that ideology the is pervasive in the Quran that by not paying a bigoted tax with humiliation, Muslims claim they have a god given right to attack others. Where is the peacefull, charitable religion you are always claiming, Amy?

Will you tell me what allahs cause is? Is it a threat to non-Muslims?

 

[R_not]

Then why don’t they make their own country and make a treaty with the Muslims?

pssst - the muslims are the ones that stole most of those lands. In many cases it was long ago so no one is asking them to return anything - just let them live in peace and observe their religion. Why don’t muslims change archaic laws that don’t give rights to others? Why don’t they give those rights to their own women? (I really don’t want some fairy tale that they do because we have already discussed this and they do not)

The thing is that even know muslims are unable to migrate to lands and observe the laws of the land once they get their numbers built up. Read the website on my signature. We see time and again they start demanding their sharia law and if it isn’t given to them the violence starts. And then they want land given to them and the non-muslims kicked out or to be subjugated (even though they won’t move out of the non-muslim lands and will just start the same thing all over again in the lands that they haven’t gotten so far). We are seeing thing in Pakistan/Kashmir/India, the Philiippines, Eastern Europe, Africa, Southeast Asia, etc.

The problem with arguing soley religion with islam is that it is also political. There is no separating the two - even they have admitted it on other threads. It is political and an all consuming infringement into their whole lives. And when we hear that they are being persecuted in our lands - it only means that they have to obey our laws and take their religion to their homes and mosques and leave it there. Only we are seeing that too often they are not doing that anymore.

And another problem with arguing religion with them is that things can change depending on what their target audience is.

jihadwatch.org/archives/021617.php

 

[Verisimilitude]

Vickie, name me One Islamic “Lie/Deceit”.

I’ll name several:
Jesus was not crucified.
Mary is part of the Trinity.
Mohammed is a good person.
Islam means peace.
There is no compulsion in religion.
Mohammed was a noble person.
Palestine is perpetual Arab/Muslim land.

 

[Verisimilitude]

Okay, let us assume that the praise and recognition of Jesus as a prophet by the Muslims, and the praise of the purity of Mary is not enough. Much more is needed by the christians from the Muslims.

Islam demands I accept their view of my God as good enough. I demand Islam accept my view of their prophet as a thief and murderer.

May I ask what good the christians are ascribing to Islam or the prophet Muhammad.

I ascribe to Mohammed the facts from your own scripture; that he stole from others, that he killed and assassinated others, that he broke promises and treaties he made with others, that he married a child, that he married his adopted sons wife… what good do you see in that?

Just tell what good you people are doing towards islam? Please tell then we will weigh the things in balance.

Christian charity does not ask your religion when you are hungry or need help. Christians are in the US military that gives food and shelter and medical treatment after natural disaters to anyone who needs it. Nations in the west that are predominately Christian do not demand Muslims be humiliated to live with Christians. Chirstian democracy allows Muslims freedom to practice their faith without restrictions or harrassment…what bad do you se in that?