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Postmodern
Guest
Alright, you answer my thesis and I give you my word I will not be uncivil in the slightest.
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algebra
Guest
What is the thesis?
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Postmodern
Guest
*"I had to write a paper for school not to long ago. The paper focused on terrorist organizations throughout history, their causes, and the role they can play in marking hegemonic decline and international instability.
For part of the paper I read a rather detailed interview with the leader of Hezbollah. The leader condemned Osama Bin Laden’s attacks on civilians. He made some exceptions for Israeli civilians due to the unique structure of their society, however he seems to believe God forbids the murder of innocent People, non-Muslims as well as Muslims.
As for you rather simplistic question of “why do they hate” there is a plethora of scientific research directed towards this question, I’d be happy to foreword you the titles if you like.
The typical terrorist has a secondary to post secondary education education(for post secondary read college). He or she comes from a middle class to upper middle class home and typically is of average to above average intelligence. They are marked with a sense of hegemonic infringement on their contemporary cultural norms, they seem to believe their lives or way of life is in immediate danger from a foreign source.
These characteristics are not specific to “Islamic” terrorist groups. A survey of a Jewish terrorist group in the 1980’s revealed similar results, as did surveys of eighteen European/Christian terrorist organizations. Studies of the Anarchist movements yield similar results
They generally appear as the hegemonic influence of the principal global/regional power(read US), this period is also marked by increased instances of the hegemonic power using military force to secure international results that could have been accomplished by economic/political pressure in the past(sound familiar?).
Finally we turn to honor killings. Studies of Jordan and numerous other countries where the practice in present yield somewhat counter intuitive results. Not only is there a lack of a statistical correlation between religiosity and honor killings, there seems to almost be an inverse correlation. A majority who have committed the act did not keep the daily prayers, fasts, or other typical practices of a devout Muslim. A broken/abusive childhood was the primary common denominator amongst perpetrators"*
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algebra
Guest
And from reading that your hypothesis is that islam is not responsible for the violence?
Being a former muslim (6 months as a muslim), I would have to agree with you to a large extent.
But you have to understand that islam is inflexible, cannot be changed to suit the times.
You either live in the “islamic world” in north america, or the “north american world”
Some religious muslims I met were opposed to things like eating at a starbucks (apparently jews own the company)
I was with a muslim friend at a starbucks (only i ordered) who kept telling me, I am glad you left these people behind (jews), they only love money, they dont love Allah.
It was wasnt said with hatred, but with loads of conviction - it was echoed by numerous muslims I encountered over my time as a muslim.
Its a very them vs Us mentality.
Being a former muslim (6 months as a muslim), I would have to agree with you to a large extent.
But you have to understand that islam is inflexible, cannot be changed to suit the times.
You either live in the “islamic world” in north america, or the “north american world”
Some religious muslims I met were opposed to things like eating at a starbucks (apparently jews own the company)
I was with a muslim friend at a starbucks (only i ordered) who kept telling me, I am glad you left these people behind (jews), they only love money, they dont love Allah.
It was wasnt said with hatred, but with loads of conviction - it was echoed by numerous muslims I encountered over my time as a muslim.
Its a very them vs Us mentality.
J
jen_fla
Guest
i am seriously about to lose it right now! ONE LAST TIME: Jews and Catholics do not teach to kill or even flog adulterers! we have separation of Church and state. show me where either one of these religions does that. we have explained over and over that those harsh punishments of the OT do not apply now. the sin still stands, but the punishment does not. we are asked to show mercy. you accuse us non-believers of misunderstanding your religion, yet you constantly do the same to us!
you just said you have NO IDEA where maulvis (muslim scholars) got the idea to stone adulterers.
how bout the hadith? islamic law is based on the quran and hadith. here is hadith:
Narrated Jabir bin Abdullah al—Ansari: A man from the tribe of Bani Aslam came to Allah’s Messenger [Muhammad] and informed him that he had committed illegal sexual intercourse; and he bore witness four times against himself. **Allah’s Messenger ordered him to be stoned to death as he was a married person **(Bukhari 8:6814; see also 8:6825; 8:6829)
i came to this thread hardly knowing anything about your religion and sister amy explained that stoning was the punishment for adultery.
sister amy could have been mistaken, but no, we see that iran still issues this punishment. taken from this link:
americanthinker.com/2005/05/flogging_and_stoning_adulterer.html
In December 2004, Amnesty International reports:
An Iranian woman charged with adultery faces death by stoning in the next five days after her death sentence was upheld by the Supreme Court last month. Her unnamed co—defendant is at risk of imminent execution by hanging. Amnesty International members are now writing urgent appeals to the Iranian authorities, calling for the execution to be stopped.
She is to be buried up to her chest and stoned to death.
The Saudi Ambassador to London, Ghazi al—Qusaibi, says that stoning may seem irrational to the Western mind, but it is ‘at the core of the Islamic faith.’ He also says that Westerners should respect Muslin culture on this matter.
video from earlier post:
youtube.com/watch?v=fPqNCr8KKdU
planten, and all the other muslims out there. thank you for opening my eyes as to what your peaceful religion teaches. i can only pray that you DO make a serious attempt to understand what the Catholic Church teaches. we won’t kill or whip you if you disagree or say things that we find offensive. i see that you love God and honestly believe that this is what he wants. i can sympathize with muslims not wanting certain aspects of secular society corrupting your beliefs. the offensive things i see and read about in our mainstream media disgusts us too, but we would rather discuss with words and not swords.
God bless all the muslims that realize that man makes mistakes and that mercy should be shown to them. God bless all the muslims that TRULY want to understand what God’s will is. God bless all the muslims that make the effort to educate themselves and ask questions in seeking God’s will.
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Verisimilitude
Guest
Based upon what?
Mohammed practiced it and if he did it it is permitted in Islam and if he forbade something it was forbidden in Islam.
Islam makes blatently false claims regarding my faith in particular as part of its scripture. It’s tenets unmistakable:
( سورة الأحزاب , Al-Ahzab, Chapter #33, 59 O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies (i.e.screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allah is Ever OftForgiving, Most Merciful.
60 If the hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease (evil desire for adultery, etc.), and those who spread false news among the people in AlMadinah, cease not, We shall certainly let you overpower them, then they will not be able to stay in it as your neighbours but a little while.
61 Accursed, wherever found, they shall be seized and killed with a (terrible) slaughter.
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Verisimilitude
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Only 49 posts in…:hypno:
Pace yourself. Many don’t get it and many don’t want to but it seems you do. Nice post.
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algebra
Guest
Any one who does not believe islam encourages peace is desperately desperately wrong
I have/had many problems with islam, but let me assure you, islam does not encourage violence against non-believers on a national level.
Does islam discriminate against non believers in a muslim land? - undoubtedly yes.
But it does not encourage wholesale militancy that terrorists use.
That is not islam, it is some rabid nonsense.
I speak with authority because I was muslim, and now I am not.
I have/had many problems with islam, but let me assure you, islam does not encourage violence against non-believers on a national level.
Does islam discriminate against non believers in a muslim land? - undoubtedly yes.
But it does not encourage wholesale militancy that terrorists use.
That is not islam, it is some rabid nonsense.
I speak with authority because I was muslim, and now I am not.
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Postmodern
Guest
I suppose. When someone says, “Islam causes X,Y, or Z” I just don’t know what they mean. What do they mean by “Islam” do they mean the thought of Maulana Muhammad Ali? What about Sayyed Hossein Nasr? Do they include the thought of Sir. Muhammad Iqbal? How about Sayyid Qutb?
These are all seminal Muslim thinkers. They all have vast followings. They all have very different thoughts about what is “Islam”. Islam isn’t some seamless whole
Says who?
That is interesting. What do you mean?
They support Israel with donations or something. That is what Muslim friends have told me. I have absolutely no idea if that is true or not.Some religious muslims I met were opposed to things like eating at a starbucks (apparently jews own the company)
Sure. And while I don’t find the Koran itself anti-Semitic I can certainly see where anti-Semitic Muslims get their ammunition from.
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Sam_777
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planten
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I had to cut some of your post. The punishment for adultry and fornication is 100 lashes. Quran is superior to any Hadith. There is no stoning in the Quran. The maulvis have some mistake.
But any way, the case of intercourse is a mixed one. There is such a case as rape. That is not simple adultry. The male only should be stoned to death if he raped a lady. I would agree to that. Otherwise, for all willing misconduct (mating) the punishment is 100 lashes.
It is true that the prophet Muhammad carried out the punishment of stoning before the verses of Chapter 24 were revealed. After that he did not do it. The prophet used to follow the law of the Jews in all matters unless a new order came from Allah.
It is written in Torah that adulterers are to be stoned to death. Very well and good. The prophet used to follow that. It was like he used to pray facing Jerusalem for many years until the verses of chapter 2 were revealed to face to Qiblah in Makkah. After that he never faced Jerusalem for prayers.
Stoning is a capital punishment. It has to be mentioned in the Quran. It cannot be left alone on the Hadith. The matters of Haram and Halal and concerning death cannot be decided by Hadith alone. Proof for them should come from the Quran. Otherwise, people will invent their own Halal and Haram too.
The Muslims Hadith is like the bible NT. Not very reliable and every word of God. People have written the Hadith from their memory.
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Angelos
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The same can be said about the Koran. Different people wrote the Koran from their weak memory and they mostly made mistakes.
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planten
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No. The Quran was written down daily as it was revealed. It was dictated by the prophet Muhammad to the scribes. The bible was not dictated by Jesus to any one to be written down. The Hadith was also not dictated by the prophet Muhammad to any one to be written down. I hope you can understand the difference between bible and Quran.The same can be said about the Koran. Different people wrote the Koran from their weak memory and they mostly made mistakes.
Our hadith is better than your bible, i.e. the biography of Jesus, nothing more than that.
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R_not
Guest
Well, yeah it does encourage violence on a national level. We see the saudis exporting wahabbism and imams which are encouraging violence. We caught the muslim brotherhood’s intentions via their documents, ‘The Project’. And a couple of its organizations is the MSA, and also CAIR.
**Here is information on the Muslim Brotherhood’s ‘The Project’ - an article about how/when this information was found:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID={67736123-6864-4205-B51E-BCBDEF45FCDE}
Here is part two of the article which has “The Project”'s document in full:
frontpagemag.com/articles/Read.aspx?GUID=61829F93-7A81-4654-A2E8-F0A5E6DD3DC4
Here is a video about the Muslim Brotherhood: youtube.com/watch?v=tx0lqVZOnHw&feature=related
And here is an article to show the tie between the Muslim Brotherhood and the Muslim Student Association:
studentsforacademicfreedom.org/news/2598/the-muslim-students-association-and-the-jihad-network
This is an example of how the MSA behaves on some campuses.
msa on UCIrvine - hate speech:youtube.com/watch?v=gJ1lk3xz_UE**
quite often we hear from off shoots of the muslim brotherhood the same rhetoric we hear from the likes of Ahmadinejad - world dominatino and one caliphate.
And with islam separating the world into two realms - dar al harb and dar al islam - the realm of war and the realm of islam, we see the ‘either you are with us or against us’ mentality. And the different definition of words, such as peace, peace treaty, aggressor, innocent, etc that they use in order to justify their aggression against non-muslims. We are seeing a very, real indication this is coming from islam. No matter how much the muslims on these threads like to deny it.
In fact, they don’t address any of this and just go merrily on their way with their agenda. I suppose that is a tactic too - sort of like ignoring what we are saying so they can continue their da’wa and then call us names and make out like they are the victims - they are so good at doing that.
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Verisimilitude
Guest
Who else do you honor so highly that kills and assassinates people, steals from others, and breaks promises made to others? The hadith glorifies Mohammed having a man and woman stoned to death as a example of his mercy. You offer PBUH after every mention of his name. Why do you offer peace to a man that says to kill in the name of God?
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Postmodern
Guest
I find that a bit hypocritical for a Christian to say. I find the idea of stoning barbaric as well. However clearly the Christian God does not consider the practice to abysmal as He ordered the stoning of quite a few people for various sins, including adultery. He also ordered the slaughter of every first born Egyptian child.
I understand Christ abolished the practice. That revisionism does not change the fact that Yahyeh once considered it morally fine.
Once again. The Koran commands that adulterers be flogged, not stoned, and no Hadith may be considered reliable if it contradicts the Koran. It does command that thieves have their hands amputated, something I find barbaric and reprehensible.
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Booklover
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This article is a prime example of what you advocate and what’s happening right here in this country when Muslims start taking over certain neighborhoods!Then why don’t they make their own country and make a treaty with the Muslims?
WAKE UP AMERICA!
Vickie
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Sister_Amy
Guest
I would just like to correct one tiny detail–the Qur’an commands that fornicators be flogged. If the fornicators are married, and therefore commiting adultery, then the case might be different according to most Sunni scholars.
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Postmodern
Guest
Fair enough
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