Catholics accused of worshiping Mary

[Semper_Fi_1]

Lazerlike42:

Singingbeauty, let me ask you this…

Do you really think that a mother in Heaven is no longer allowed to see what’s going on with her children? Do you think that God, once a mother has died, suddenly tells them they aren’t allowed to know what her children are doing, or if they’re ok, or if they are happy? This would not be Heaven… this would be Hell In fact, it goes against the very idea of Christianity itself. Christianity is about loving each other… it is the second great commandment, to love one another as you love yourself, and moreso as Jesus has loved you. All of Christ’s commandments are summed up in the two commandments, to love God, and to love one another. Remember Lazarus and the rich man? Lazarus was outside of the mansion, in need. But the rich mand didn’t care about Lazarus, he just cared about his life in the mansion. If those in Heaven are just enjoying their rewards and aren’t paying attention to those still on earth, they are just as bad as the rich man.

In fact, we know those in Heaven know what is going on on earth. Revelation describes the martyrs in Heaven watching those on earth and asking God when those on earth will be punished for killing them (if they don’t repent of course). Hebrews describes those in Heaven as a great bunch of witnesses watching as we run our race toward Heaven.

Yes, there’s also a passage, I can’t remember where, of angels and saints singing when another soul is converted for Christ. Also, we are made to be ABOVE angels. Angels are made to SERVE us (originally, before the fall). Angels know what is going on in Heaven, yet we wouldn’t once we got there? Something’s not right with that picture…

 

[Singinbeauty]

Lazerlike42:

Singingbeauty, let me ask you this…

Do you really think that a mother in Heaven is no longer allowed to see what’s going on with her children? Do you think that God, once a mother has died, suddenly tells them they aren’t allowed to know what her children are doing, or if they’re ok, or if they are happy? This would not be Heaven… this would be Hell In fact, it goes against the very idea of Christianity itself. Christianity is about loving each other… it is the second great commandment, to love one another as you love yourself, and moreso as Jesus has loved you. All of Christ’s commandments are summed up in the two commandments, to love God, and to love one another. Remember Lazarus and the rich man? Lazarus was outside of the mansion, in need. But the rich mand didn’t care about Lazarus, he just cared about his life in the mansion. If those in Heaven are just enjoying their rewards and aren’t paying attention to those still on earth, they are just as bad as the rich man.

In fact, we know those in Heaven know what is going on on earth. Revelation describes the martyrs in Heaven watching those on earth and asking God when those on earth will be punished for killing them (if they don’t repent of course). Hebrews describes those in Heaven as a great bunch of witnesses watching as we run our race toward Heaven.

I guess if I believed that we hold the same relationships with people in Heaven as we did on earth I could see your point but I believe that once we get to Heaven there is no more the ties as mother, father, sister, or brother, aunt, uncle, etc… We are ALL Brothers and Sisters IN Christ. And worship together as such. We will rejoice in seeing a Brother/Sister cross the finish line and join us. But I don’t believe we will be known as we were on earth. I don’t know for sure though… I just know that my heart is convicted to NOT pray to anyone except God and Jesus.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Mickey:

Thanks E.E.N.S.

I was too lazy to cut and paste it. Am I guilty of sloth? Oops, gotta stop being scrupulous.

You are welcome Mickey!

 

[Lance]

Singinbeauty:

Actually, and this statement has been called idiotic so please refrain from calling it that as I do NOT do that to any of your beliefs, I don’t believe that anyone except God and Jesus in Heaven can hear anything that is going on here on earth. She has reached the end of the race and is enjoying her Just Reward. Yes, I have gone to a grave of a loved one and spoken BUT this was for ME I don’t believe that they could hear me.

As I said several posts ago no one thinks anyone here is an idiot. I don’t share your beliefs and you don’t share mine. Neither of us is an idiot. I am sure it was just an over sight but don’t you believe the Holy Spirit can hear you? Personally I am glad I don’t believe what you believe but that is just my opinion.
In all charity I am asking, if you don’t believe what Catholics believe and are not trying to convert us to your way of thinking or are maybe thinking you could be wrong, why are you posting here? Just curious.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Singinbeauty:

I just know that my heart is convicted to NOT pray to anyone except God and Jesus.

And that’s okay. It is recommended in Scripture, and it can greatly strengthen a person’s faith, but it is not required by any means. Just realize that you have no ground to say that others cannot ask for intercession from our brothers and sisters in Christ who have already won the race, and now see clearly.

 

[Lazerlike42]

Singinbeauty:

I guess if I believed that we hold the same relationships with people in Heaven as we did on earth I could see your point but I believe that once we get to Heaven there is no more the ties as mother, father, sister, or brother, aunt, uncle, etc… We are ALL Brothers and Sisters IN Christ. And worship together as such. We will rejoice in seeing a Brother/Sister cross the finish line and join us. But I don’t believe we will be known as we were on earth. I don’t know for sure though… I just know that my heart is convicted to NOT pray to anyone except God and Jesus.

But that’s the thing. You’re NOT praying to anyone but Jesus. You’re ASKING, that’s all. You’re not asking a saint to actually do anything other than pray. You’re asking them to do something you or I could do. You’re not asking them to actually… really make anything happen. You’re still asking God for that, and only God cuz only He can make anything happen.

In fact, think about Christ dying on the cross. At one point, he cried out, “Elios! Elios!” and the people thought He was calling Elijah. Now, Elijah was in Heaven. Nevertheless, it seemed very natural to the Jews that He would be calling Elijah in Heaven. I suggest that the idea of talking to someone in Heaven was commonplace in their thinking.

 

[Singinbeauty]

Lance:

In all charity I am asking, if you don’t believe what Catholics believe and are not trying to convert us to your way of thinking or are maybe thinking you could be wrong, why are you posting here? Just curious.

To learn more about my catholic brothers and sisters and the faith they hold so dear, to maybe squash any misconceptions of what SOME think that some protestants believe, to show that at least ONE protestant can be civil in a debate and that we aren’t ALL cathlic-bashers, to show those who are a bit too aggressive another way to approach us protestants and NOT get their heads bitten off, to show what I have found to be truth (not as a way of trying to convert but showing a different take on what christianity is about and the road that God has led me down)… To name a few.

 

[E.E.N.S]

I know that this is off topic, but I am sad that there are protestants in the first place…we should all be One like Our Lord prayed for.

 

[Shlemele]

I guess I should put another POV here too. First of all I want to thank SB, I have enjoyed your posts. It’s nice to see another NC with such a civil attitude. We truly are here to learn about our brothers and sisters, and hopefully build a few bridges.

From my point of view I grew up thinking that Catholics actually did pray TO the saints. It wasn’t until my best friend and I met that we started talking bout these things and he explained that it was more like asking someone to pray for you. This I can understand, and in my wedding my wife offered up a prayer to Mary so I guess it was good training of things to come. As I see it asking prayer support from those who have been there before is never a bad idea, and if they have passed on all it means is that they have more time on their hands . What I do get nervous about is things that people treating the saints like Santa Claus, just asking for things regardless of if they are in Gods will or not. Now I realize that people do this to God as well but in both cases we are in error if we do so. I guess I have never really felt the need to appeal to anyone but God in prayer so I don’t think that I will be doing any praying to saints, however I don’t see the harm in it as long as people understand what they are doing.

What I worry about is those who are cultural Catholics and might not have had the training to learn the difference. I grew up in a town that was predominantly Hispanic. Most Catholics in the town were Catholic in name only, much to the frustration of my friend. I heard many tell me growing up that I’m not Catholic because I don’t pray to Mary, and while strictly speaking this is true they believed that you pray TO Mary. One of the young men that my family took in was the son of a very cultural Catholic. He went into seminary and is now a pastor. I remember him telling me how his father had chest pains and told him that he prayed to a picture of Mary and the pain went away. He was so sad because his father placed his faith in a picture. Until I met my friend this was my impression of Catholics and this is why I’m glad we have this forum where we can learn the truth about each other.

 

[Singinbeauty]

E.E.N.S.:

I know that this is off topic, but I am sad that there are protestants in the first place…we should all be One like Our Lord prayed for.

This is another place that most catholics and I disagree on also… See, I don’t see any differences when it comes to us being One in Christ. For me, we are all brothers and sisters in Christ. On one team and with One goal. I am not sad that there are protestants and catholics because when it all comes down to it we are all running towards the same goal and will be together at the end of the race. Be assured! We may worship differently but we are all loved and accepted by the same God!

 

[E.E.N.S]

Singinbeauty:

This is another place that most catholics and I disagree on also… See, I don’t see any differences when it comes to us being One in Christ. For me, we are all brothers and sisters in Christ. On one team and with One goal. I am not sad that there are protestants and catholics because when it all comes down to it we are all running towards the same goal and will be together at the end of the race. Be assured! We may worship differently but we are all loved and accepted by the same God!

You are correct, we are all loved by God, no doubt. However, Christ desired us to be one, also consider, “when the spirit of truth comes, he will lead you to all truth…” oppositing truths are not possible, one is true while the other is false. If we are the Mystical Body of Christ (which we are) then division is a wound in that Body for sure.

Never throughout history was division among Christians accepted as something that’s just “okay,” this indifference is relatively new, and vile to Our Lord.

It is NOT okay to be indifferent. To be indifferent is to be lukewarm (at least in some sense.)

 

[boban]

(not as a way of trying to convert but showing a different take on what christianity is about and the road that God has led me down)…

According to a Protestant source there are more than 30,000 different roads that each believes that God has led them down to. The fact that they each espouse a God that is different in some way or another to all the others is all the same doggedly held on to.

But our God is ONE God and not one that we prefer to concoct to appease our preferences, claims to personal revelations notwithstanding. Rather it is the case of choosing whom to accept as your teacher. One who is authentic or one that is more personally satisfying? Is it to be seeking a teacher that agrees with us, or is it to be seeking a teacher to learn from that will sometimes administer severe mercy when necessary rather than being like a misguided overindulgent parent? Our decision in selecting a teacher needs to be one who has authentic credentials and not a self appointed one that teaches what rings true for me (satisfies me) because I am not infalliable.

Hence our Master’s rule, “Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me. For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake and that of the gospel will save it.” (Lk 8: 34, 35)

 

[Singinbeauty]

E.E.N.S.:

You are correct, we are all loved by God, no doubt. However, Christ desired us to be one, also consider, “when the spirit of truth comes, he will lead you to all truth…” oppositing truths are not possible, one is true while the other is false. If we are the Mystical Body of Christ (which we are) then division is a wound in that Body for sure.

Never throughout history was division among Christians accepted as something that’s just “okay,” this indifference is relatively new, and vile to Our Lord.

It is NOT okay to be indifferent. To be indifferent is to be lukewarm (at least in some sense.)

But what TRUTH is there? The TRUTH that I have been shown is that Jesus died for my sins, washed me clean, and holds in me eternal salvation. What other truth is there?

 

[Mickey]

E.E.N.S.:

Never throughout history was division among Christians accepted as something that’s just “okay,”

An Excerpt from the epistle of St Ignatius of Antioch to the Philadelphians:

CHAPTER III.–AVOID SCHISMATICS.

Keep yourselves from those evil plants which Jesus Christ does not tend, because they are not the planting of the Father. Not that I have found any division among you, but exceeding purity. For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of repentance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ. Do not err, my brethren. If any man follows him that makes a schism in the Church, he shall not inherit the kingdom of God. If any one walks according to a strange opinion, he agrees not with the passion [of Christ.].

 

[Orionthehunter]

Singinbeauty:

I guess if I believed that we hold the same relationships with people in Heaven as we did on earth I could see your point but I believe that once we get to Heaven there is no more the ties as mother, father, sister, or brother, aunt, uncle, etc… We are ALL Brothers and Sisters IN Christ. And worship together as such. We will rejoice in seeing a Brother/Sister cross the finish line and join us. But I don’t believe we will be known as we were on earth. I don’t know for sure though… I just know that my heart is convicted to NOT pray to anyone except God and Jesus.

Not holding a such a belief is probably nearly irrelevant from a spiritual or obedience perspective in God’s eyes so this may be much ado about nothing. However, God promises that love is eternal. If the ties that bound loved ones ceases at heaven’s gate, love is transitory and not eternal. Agape love as described by CS Lewis in the Four Loves is the love that you are referring to and will be the love we will hold for all the Saints in Heaven. However, the other “loves” do survive in heaven. Read this book and you might understand the distinction. In teh meantime, keep up the good work Singing. The Holy Spirit’s home in your soul is well-filled.

 

[Lazerlike42]

Singinbeauty:

But what TRUTH is there? The TRUTH that I have been shown is that Jesus died for my sins, washed me clean, and holds in me eternal salvation. What other truth is there?

So Jesus said to them, “I assure you: Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you do not have life in yourselves.”

Just an example.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Singinbeauty:

But what TRUTH is there? The TRUTH that I have been shown is that Jesus died for my sins, washed me clean, and holds in me eternal salvation. What other truth is there?

The Bible is pretty darn big, for such a simple truth.

What about how are we to work out our salvation?

What about baptism?

What about the Eucharist?

What about confession?

What about euthanasia?

What about EVERYTHING?

What was Jesus method for insuring these truths? Did He write a book? or did He institute a Church and pass on His authority?

Where are we to get these truths? how are we to enact them? what happens if we fail along the way? how do we renconcile?

 

[boban]

Singinbeauty:

But what TRUTH is there? The TRUTH that I have been shown is that Jesus died for my sins, washed me clean, and holds in me eternal salvation. What other truth is there?

Here is the good news: you are right as far as you go. Here is the bad news: there is a whole lot more in the bible alone. You have to get past your comfort zone and look around.

 

[Mickey]

Lazerlike42:

So Jesus said to them, “I assure you: Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you do not have life in yourselves.”

For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Singinbeauty:

But what TRUTH is there? The TRUTH that I have been shown is that Jesus died for my sins, washed me clean, and holds in me eternal salvation. What other truth is there?

And here are some more questions:

Why did Jesus say that, “not everyone that says “Lord, Lord…” will enter into the kingdom of heaven.” ? (What does thins mean?)

What did Jesus mean when He said, “*it is harder for a rich man to enter into heaven, than for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle.” *? (What entails being rich?)

Jesus said, “if you wish to enter into eternal life, then you must take up you cross and follow me.…” how do we do this?

What did Jesus mean when He said, “if you try to save your life you will lose it, but if you give up your life for my sake you will live…” ?

What did He mean when He said, “if you are friends with the world you are at enmity with God…” ?

What about His words, “the path to heaven is narrow and hard and few are on it, but the path that leads to destruction is wide and easy and many are on it.…” ?

And how about, “unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life in you…for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink…” ?

…and there are many more sayings by Our Lord, Jesus Christ that imply more than the simple truth you just proclaimed (though I do believe what you said, I just also believe everything else Jesus said as well.)