Catholics accused of worshiping Mary

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Singinbeauty:
But what TRUTH is there? The TRUTH that I have been shown is that Jesus died for my sins, washed me clean, and holds in me eternal salvation. What other truth is there?
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On what do you base your belief that there is no other truth than the 3 you have listed here?

It’s true that ALL truth is available to us (John 16:13), as opposed to just a few select truths.

It’s true that there is a voice in the world today that we are to listen to and not reject lest we be rejecting Christ and the Father themselves (Luke 16:10).

It’s true that the Church is the God-ordained upholder, protector and defender of the truth (1 Tim 3:15).

It’s true that faith by itself, alone, is dead, incomplete and useless ( James 2:17,20,22,26).

It’s true that love is greater than faith (1 Cor 13:13).

It’s true that Jesus’ flesh is food INDEED and his blood is drink INDEED (John 6:55).

It’s true that unless you eat His flesh and drink he blood you have NO life in you (John6:53).

It’s true that baptism is necessary for salvation (John 3:3,5; Romans 6:3-4).

That’s only the tip of the iceberg of what’s true!

I fear that some of our brothers and sisters in Christ have oversimplified what God wants us to know and are, therefore, missing out on so much. I do realize that they truly don’t believe they are missing out on anything, but you really can’t miss what you’ve never had.

If what you listed above is truly ALL the truth that you’ve been shown I invite you to consider the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church! Within her is the FULLNESS of truth (John 4:16; Eph 1:22-23), not just a select few.

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
 
This is in response to post 200 which could not be quoted due to the way it was posted and I didn’t feel like cutting and pasting.

Cheddar, does the possibility exist, however remotely, that you are misperceiving what you are seeing and that the people you see doing things things are, in reality, not worshipping but rather honoring the mother of their Lord and Savior?

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
 
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Singinbeauty:
You know, I was almost about to pass this reply just as I have the others because, quite frankly, it was making sense. But then I thought about WHY I had issue with this in the first place. Yes, I do go to friends to help me pray for stuff. But that analogy lacks a VERY important quality. When I go to my friend there aren’t a billion other people trying to get at her at the same time and expect her to hear them even if they are in another country or just another city. And you would think this was ridiculous if I sat at home and, even though she wasn’t in the room with me, you would think it quite weird for me sit in my room and expect her to hear me and pray with me even though I never spoke to her face to face. Since we all agree that Mary is NOT God or even God-Like it, to me, is like we are sitting at home expecting our friend to hear us even though it’s not humanly possible.
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I’m curious on what you base your belief that the contraints of time and space we experience here on earth would even be an issue in heaven?? Why would things not humanly possible IN the body be an issue once you’re OUT of the body?

Heaven is in eternity, not time, so those in heaven would not be limited by time and space like we are. Being able to listen to one person at a time and having to be in the same room to hear them is a time and space issue that doesn’t apply in eternity. In any case, the Church doesn’t teach anything about HOW those in heaven are made aware of our prayers, just that they ARE aware of our prayers.
And you might bring up the argument of praying to the saints and how the bible mentions it in Revelation and all that but the bible also calls all christians, saints, so those christians here on earth would be the saints we are to go to to pray with and for us.
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I’d bring up Revelation, but not the passage you’re referring to. I’m not familiar with anything in Revelation that mentions praying to the saints.

However, Revelation 5:8 DOES say that there are those in heaven taking the prayers of the saints (those of us on earth) to God. In order for them to HAVE the prayers to take to God in the first place they must first be aware of them. Scripture doesn’t say HOW they become aware of our prayers but simply that they take the prayers of people on earth to God.

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
 
E.E.N.S.:
And here are some more questions:

Why did Jesus say that, “not everyone that says “Lord, Lord…” will enter into the kingdom of heaven.” ? (What does thins mean?)
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Because your heart is what God looks at not your words. Someone can go to church, read the bible, and sing the songs but if they are only going through the motions and their heart is hardened then they will not be in Heaven.
What did Jesus mean when He said, “*it is harder for a rich man to enter into heaven, than for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle.” *? (What entails being rich?)
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Rich could mean many things. Money, knowledge, family, love… etc… But if ANY of these things take precidence over God, and often if someone has too much of one or another, then it is harder for him to enter because his heart is not where it should be… with God.
Jesus said, “if you wish to enter into eternal life, then you must take up you cross and follow me.…” how do we do this?
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That everyday you remember the sacrifice that Jesus made for us. To take up our cross is to, until the day we meet Him in Heaven, keep in reminder the incredible sacrifice that Jesus made, what He endured, and what we ALMOST had to endure. We may carry our cross right now but when we make it to Calvary He will remove our cross and we are FREE.
What did Jesus mean when He said, “if you try to save your life you will lose it, but if you give up your life for my sake you will live…”?
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We cannot save our own souls. It’s not possible. There is nothing we can do to make sure that we have eternal life except, and this is in the second part, we give up our life to Christ… Meaning we let go of control and accept the gift He presents to us. The sacrifice He has made.
What did He mean when He said, “if you are friends with the world you are at enmity with God…”?
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Were you talking of this verse…
James 4:4 (New Living Translation)
*You adulterers! Don’t you realize that friendship with this world makes you an enemy of God? I say it again, that if your aim is to enjoy this world, you can’t be a friend of God. *

That whole passage talks about being faithful to God and God alone. Notice the use of the word ‘adulterers’… We cannot put anything at the same level or Higher than God.
What about His words, “the path to heaven is narrow and hard and few are on it, but the path that leads to destruction is wide and easy and many are on it.…” ?
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Let me ask you a question… How easy does this world make it for christians to go about publically admitting and rejoicing in our love for God? Oh the path is very narrow and difficult. There are certain things we need to follow… the 10 commandments and to love the Lord our God with all our hearts, minds, and souls… to name a couple.
And how about, “unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life in you…for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink…”?
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From what I understand this is to go in line with another verse before this…

John 6:33-35 (New Living Translation)
*33The true bread of God is the one who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."
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34"Sir," they said, "give us that bread every day of our lives."

35Jesus replied, "I am the bread of life. No one who comes to me will ever be hungry again. Those who believe in me will never thirst.*
Jesus fills us so that we will never be hungry again, I believe that THIS is what He meany by eat of my flesh and drink of my blood because He IS the bread of Life.
 
Well, I for one am happy that Protestants come here. The majority are polite. Debating on this forum has assisted me in answering my neighbors’ questions in regard to my faith. These forums also helped me decide to take the plunge into RCIA classes something that I might never have done without the back and forth debate that is allowed here.
 
Could one of the bible only protestants that are on this thread answer me this…where in the bible does it say that our dead relatives can not hear us? Or that they don’t care what happens? I ask this in all sincerity. Most Protestants beliefs are based on something in the bible, even if it is a misinterpretation of the verse. But I have never come across any verse that claims there is some sort of impenatrable wall between us and our deceased loved ones.:confused:
 
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Singinbeauty:
Because your heart is what God looks at not your words. Someone can go to church, read the bible, and sing the songs but if they are only going through the motions and their heart is hardened then they will not be in Heaven.

Rich could mean many things. Money, knowledge, family, love… etc… But if ANY of these things take precidence over God, and often if someone has too much of one or another, then it is harder for him to enter because his heart is not where it should be… with God.

That everyday you remember the sacrifice that Jesus made for us. To take up our cross is to, until the day we meet Him in Heaven, keep in reminder the incredible sacrifice that Jesus made, what He endured, and what we ALMOST had to endure. We may carry our cross right now but when we make it to Calvary He will remove our cross and we are FREE.

We cannot save our own souls. It’s not possible. There is nothing we can do to make sure that we have eternal life except, and this is in the second part, we give up our life to Christ… Meaning we let go of control and accept the gift He presents to us. The sacrifice He has made.

Were you talking of this verse…
James 4:4 (New Living Translation)
*You adulterers! Don’t you realize that friendship with this world makes you an enemy of God? I say it again, that if your aim is to enjoy this world, you can’t be a friend of God. *

That whole passage talks about being faithful to God and God alone. Notice the use of the word ‘adulterers’… We cannot put anything at the same level or Higher than God.

Let me ask you a question… How easy does this world make it for christians to go about publically admitting and rejoicing in our love for God? Oh the path is very narrow and difficult. There are certain things we need to follow… the 10 commandments and to love the Lord our God with all our hearts, minds, and souls… to name a couple.

From what I understand this is to go in line with another verse before this…

John 6:33-35 (New Living Translation)
33The true bread of God is the one who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."

34"Sir," they said, “give us that bread every day of our lives.”

35Jesus replied, "I am the bread of life. No one who comes to me will ever be hungry again. Those who believe in me will never thirst.

Jesus fills us so that we will never be hungry again, I believe that THIS is what He meany by eat of my flesh and drink of my blood because He IS the bread of Life.
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Though I disagree with some of your interpretations, that’s wasn’t really my point of the questions, I was elaborating that there was more to it than what you said earlier - and not only that, but the fact that you and I disagree on the intepretaions shows the great need from the Church that Christ established [whos soul is the Holy Spirit] to “guide us into all truth.”
 
I guess what I am trying to say is that it only matters what your heart portrays to God. Not what you do but your works will be a byproduct of your heart’s condition. So it comes down to the state your heart is in and what God sees beyond our pittiful attempts to pretend to have a heart for Him.
 
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Singinbeauty:
Jesus fills us so that we will never be hungry again, I believe that THIS is what He meany by eat of my flesh and drink of my blood because He IS the bread of Life.
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Yes. But fills us with what? If you are implying that it is only symbolic to “Eat of My flesh and drink of My blood”, then you make jesus complicite in misleading those who took Him literally and were grossed out and left Him. (NAB Jn 6: 66) “As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.”

Jesus knew well that they believed what He was teaching and He let them go because they understood Him correctly but would not accept it. He did not mislead them. He said what He meant, and He meant what He said, repeating it six times in this event.

To mislead is to be dishonest. Can anyone believe that Jesus said something deliberately to mislead so that He could drive them away because for some reason He didn’t want them around?
 
In addiition, if you actually read the Greek, it doesn’t say "eat me flesh " it says “gnaw my flesh.”
 
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Singinbeauty:
I guess what I am trying to say is that it only matters what your heart portrays to God. Not what you do but your works will be a byproduct of your heart’s condition. So it comes down to the state your heart is in and what God sees beyond our pittiful attempts to pretend to have a heart for Him.
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Correct (mostly), but the way we show God that we love Him is by doing what He tells us and by keeping the commandments.
 
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deb1:
Could one of the bible only protestants that are on this thread answer me this…where in the bible does it say that our dead relatives can not hear us? Or that they don’t care what happens? I ask this in all sincerity. Most Protestants beliefs are based on something in the bible, even if it is a misinterpretation of the verse. But I have never come across any verse that claims there is some sort of impenatrable wall between us and our deceased loved ones.:confused:
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Even though they are in Heaven, they are still a localized being. In that, like angels, they are not omnipresent and can only be at one place at one time. So it’s not that in theory they cannot hear us, it’s that as long as they are in Heaven they cannot hear what is on earth. They have knowledge of the events on earth (Heb 12:1) and seem to be praying before God about for final salvation (Rev 6:10). But even in Hebrews we are focused on Christ, with the saints watching us. And there is no indication, even in this verse, that they have access to a specific person here on earth. As their place is in Heaven, they would have to journey back to earth to hear us. This does not mean that they are not praying for us, and this does not mean we can’t pray for them as an expression of love, holding them up before God even while they are in his presence. So it’s no so much that in theory it’s not possible, but there is not indication of the practice in scripture, and I’m not sure about the Church Fathers. Nothing I have read anyway about us communicating to them specifically.

So where does it say they cannot hear us?
Nowhere, it is a deduction from evidence of the nature of a finite soul having to be localized, and the localization being in Heaven, therefore out of range of Earth.

Where does it say they do not care?
Nowhere, but this is a separate issue then communicating to them.
 
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Knight4God:
Even though they are in Heaven, they are still a localized being. In that, like angels, they are not omnipresent and can only be at one place at one time. So it’s not that in theory they cannot hear us, it’s that as long as they are in Heaven they cannot hear what is on earth. They have knowledge of the events on earth (Heb 12:1) and seem to be praying before God about for final salvation (Rev 6:10). But even in Hebrews we are focused on Christ, with the saints watching us. And there is no indication, even in this verse, that they have access to a specific person here on earth. As their place is in Heaven, they would have to journey back to earth to hear us. This does not mean that they are not praying for us, and this does not mean we can’t pray for them as an expression of love, holding them up before God even while they are in his presence. So it’s no so much that in theory it’s not possible, but there is not indication of the practice in scripture, and I’m not sure about the Church Fathers. Nothing I have read anyway about us communicating to them specifically.

So where does it say they cannot hear us?
Nowhere, it is a deduction from evidence of the nature of a finite soul having to be localized, and the localization being in Heaven, therefore out of range of Earth.

Where does it say they do not care?
Nowhere, but this is a separate issue then communicating to them.
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The saints can hear everyone’s prayers because they is partaking in the Divine nature. As we read in 1 Peter, part of Heaven entails partaking of the Divine nature. In other words, we get to experience some of what it is like to be God, though of course not all of it or we’d be God! But He loves us so much that He wants to share this with us in some way. One aspect of the Divine nature is the ability to hear millions of people at once.

Another reason is that they are in eternity. Eternity isn’t the same thing as forever. Now, if they really was just in “forever,” then they could spend a few million years hearing everyone’s prayers and then spend the rest of forever just hanging around, or doing whatever else one does up there. However, they’re in eternity. That means they’re outside of time, and time doesn’t really bound them in the same way it does us. How does it work in Heaven? We don’t know exactly, but we know we won’t be bound by it as we are now.
 
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Knight4God:
…but there is not indication of the practice in scripture, and I’m not sure about the Church Fathers. Nothing I have read anyway about us communicating to them specifically.

So where does it say they cannot hear us?
Nowhere, it is a deduction from evidence of the nature of a finite soul having to be localized, and the localization being in Heaven, therefore out of range of Earth.

Where does it say they do not care?
Nowhere, but this is a separate issue then communicating to them.
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There is no direct, explicit indication, but the Scriptures don’t contain (at least not explicitly) many things that are commonly believed by many Christians…but my response is more directed at the ECF; they definately held the belief that we communicate with the saints. (Not to mentions the countless thousands of witnesses throughout the years of people with direct contact to things such as apparitions, and communication/miracles with the saints.)
 
Didn’t take the time to read everything. Has anyone brought up dulia, hyperdulia, and latria?
 
E.E.N.S.:
But of course! 😉
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Oh…day late and a dollar short again!

How am I supposed to defend my Mother with all these other wonderful people beating me to the punch?
 
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Lazerlike42:
The saints can hear everyone’s prayers because they is partaking in the Divine nature. As we read in 1 Peter, part of Heaven entails partaking of the Divine nature. In other words, we get to experience some of what it is like to be God, though of course not all of it or we’d be God! But He loves us so much that He wants to share this with us in some way. One aspect of the Divine nature is the ability to hear millions of people at once.

Another reason is that they are in eternity. Eternity isn’t the same thing as forever. Now, if they really was just in “forever,” then they could spend a few million years hearing everyone’s prayers and then spend the rest of forever just hanging around, or doing whatever else one does up there. However, they’re in eternity. That means they’re outside of time, and time doesn’t really bound them in the same way it does us. How does it work in Heaven? We don’t know exactly, but we know we won’t be bound by it as we are now.
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  1. It does not follow that theosis has to include the ability to hear many people on earth at once. 2 Peter 1:4 is in the context of living a godly life of virtue. Where do you derive that this passage speaks of more then that?
  2. God is timeless, but where does scripture that Heaven itself is timeless? If the Saints do not yet have resurrected bodies and are awaiting the new heavens and new earth, then the heavenly state they are in now is a temporary state, which would seem to imply a lack of timelessness. God has a special presence in Heaven certainly, and the physical resurrected body of Christ is present there, but there is no indication that Heaven as a spiritual place along with the angels and disembodied saints are timeless.
 
E.E.N.S.:
There is no direct, explicit indication, but the Scriptures don’t contain (at least not explicitly) many things that are commonly believed by many Christians…but my response is more directed at the ECF; they definately held the belief that we communicate with the saints. (Not to mentions the countless thousands of witnesses throughout the years of people with direct contact to things such as apparitions, and communication/miracles with the saints.)
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True, but there has to be a reason to believe something not explicit. And I’m arguing not only that it isn’t explicit, but that deduction from scripture would rule against it.

Citations of the ECF?
 
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tkdnick:
Didn’t take the time to read everything. Has anyone brought up dulia, hyperdulia, and latria?
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But of course. So glad you asked. See my post, boban #191 0n page #2.
 
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